Question for you cell phone experts

[Freedom Kira]

Alright, here's the deal this time.

I have my girlfriend's Nokia 5310. She's looking to get it fixed, and I thought, hey, doesn't hurt to try.

So this is what's happening. The phone powers on fine, the display looks great, the battery is working great. It's a GSM phone (SIMlocked to Rogers Wireless in Canada), so first it asks if you want to start it up without a SIM card. I hit yes, and it shows the handshake Nokia animation, and then it goes to a screen where you are to enter the date and time. About a second into this screen, the phone starts acting funny. It shuts off, then automatically comes back on to the same screen, only to shut off again. This happens 3-4 times, and then the phone stays shut off, frozen on the date/time screen, eventually fading to black. I believe this has happened with the SIM card in it as well, otherwise the phone probably would never have ended up in my hands.

The condition of the phone is... pretty battered. Several keys are cracked, and half of the 0 key broke off. There are scratches all over. There's a deep scratch or crack on the covering of the LCD (the display itself is fine). I had taken it apart and removed a few dust chunks. I've tried replacing the LCD screen because I had a somewhat similar problem with my own Nokia 5300 (it would start up and then shut back down after a moment, but the screen was actually screwy on that one). Right now it is in its original condition.

So here's my question. Any ideas on how to fix this? Seems like no one on Google has experienced this problem before.

It looks like the problem is on the mobo. So, I've been considering getting a used 5310 off eBay and change the mobo over. It should be an easy task that should take no more than an hour. Problem is, does a SIMlock on the mobo carry over? In other words, if the phone I am buying is SIMlocked to, for example, T-Mobile, would moving the mobo over cause my 5310 to become SIMlocked to T-Mobile?

Thanks in advance to anyone with answers.

[boxer4]

Yes the motherboard is the item that tends to be subscriber locked.

The symptoms seems like the phone has seen its better days.  I can't tell if it's normal or not but doesn't seem to work like how my phone behaves but it's a different phone (Nokia 5230).  My phone is subsidy unlocked though (T-Mobile branded, but I've used a AT&T card in it.)

[Freedom Kira]

It has definitely seen better days, but even then the symptoms are the strangest I've ever experienced.

I was hoping it was the SIM reader that was locked, not the mobo. I guess the reader is attached to the mobo though.

[relic2279]

I was a cell phone technician. Repaired handsets for a few years.

The phone is shot. Can it be fixed? Sure. But it would cost more in time and money than to buy a new phone.

Seems like no one on Google has experienced this problem before.

We have, but it's like trying to replace a $1100 transmission in a car that's worth $700. It just isn't done.

[Freedom Kira]

Ah, I figured as much. Thanks for that.

I figure it's more worth it to get a used phone and move the mobo over. A new one can cost upwards of $70, and a used one around half that. I just have to check if the SIMlock is either not there or on the right network, yes? Can you confirm if the SIMlock is on the mobo or not?

[boxer4]

There's only one board in most phones, and it's in the firmware to check whether the SIM card inserted matches the subsidy lock provider.  If you transplant the board, the lock goes with it.  Better to go look for one without a lock.

I've seen some REALLY crappy-cheap phones out there for less than $50 without a subsidy lock, I know this will look like an advertisement but I did not mean it, I'm not even sure I'd buy one:

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.39980

Cheap crappy quad band new dual SIM phone for less than $50 with no subsidy lock.  Unfortunately it's probably of questionable quality, who knows how long it will last, but it is new...

[Freedom Kira]

The reason why I am iffy about your explanation is because I have looked into cell phone unbranding. It is supposed to make your phone download different firmware that does not include all of the extra bloatware that the carrier latches on, meaning you get firmware updates earlier and without extra crap. However, unbranding does not affect the SIMlock, and nothing you can do can remove it, besides trying unlock codes. If it really was in the firmware, replacing it with new firmware should remove the SIMlock, but it doesn't. You're right that there's only one board, though, so it also wouldn't make sense that a SIMlock can be anywhere other than the mobo.

I might actually get that just for the heck of seeing how it's like, but yeah I wouldn't expect much either. Looks to me like a fake phone.

Anyway, still looking for confirmation on the SIMlock being on the mobo.

[boxer4]

Well, if you can actually reflash the firmware and/or whereever it sticks the code to indicate lock, then more power to you.  Likely reflash firmware routines are also prevented by the subsidy lock.

It all depends on the implementation of the lock.  I'd most likely guess that the firmware lock exists in either some bits in the processor chip or the firmware chip. It could be very difficult to deal with if it were in the processor chip.

[daveLovesIt]

I never really played with phone locks much, but from my understanding, there are very few that can't be unlocked. And Nokia are usually pretty open about technical specs, have you tried researching the phone itself, rather than the issue you are having?

Whether or not you can manage to do it yourself or would need specialist equipment and/or obscure software I dunno... but phone shops basically have both of these and usually don't charge anything like what you are considering paying for a used handset to do a full unlock on a phone. At least thats the deal here in the UK. I'm not even sure of the legality in other places.

Main question: If the handset is battered to the extent you describe, why would you take another phone and swap the mobo's when you could just use the other phone?

[Freedom Kira]

I'm having doubts about being able to reflash the lock out.

I haven't researched it, actually. I kinda assumed it was like all the other Nokias.

In Canada, it costs money to unlock a phone, usually about $25-30. Depends how much the unlocker wants to rip you off by. It's definitely legal though - there are no laws saying anything about locking and unlocking.

As for the main question...
1. Because I can buy just a working mobo (not necessarily an entire phone) and it'd still be fine. A damaged phone would be fine too, as long as the mobo works, and those are a lot cheaper as well.
2. I am considering putting everything into a new housing anyway.
3. The possibility that the SIMlock isn't on the mobo. Most used phones come from the US, and they have different carriers than we do in Canada, meaning it'd be locked on a different network no matter what if it is a US phone.

[boxer4]

While looking around, it seems that Nokia appears to be more easily "cracked" of the subsidy lock, so that's more fortunate if you want to stick with Nokia.

It's definitely legal to remove the subsidy lock, but it is sort of a moral issue for at least the US residents.  Most phones are "sold" to users at deep discounts with the lock, to force people to "pay back" the subsidy by the monthly fee, hence the correct term "subsidy lock".

Honestly I think all phone companies should just sell the hardware outright up front and make monthly costs cheaper.  It would make the entry barrier higher but hey... less users is great too.  Then there will be no need for crap like "subsidy locks"...  (or make it clear that people are payment planning the phone, and remove the payment plan once it's paid off... but they don't do that so they make more money from you if you don't "get a new contract"...

*sigh*

That < $50 phone looks like the best way to go for people who want cell service but don't want to pay for a $500 smartphone...

[NaRu]

It sounds like the phone is dead. To me it seems to be a memory problem. Once it starts to use some of the memory it gets all funny. I say throw it out and get a new one

[daveLovesIt]

While looking around, it seems that Nokia appears to be more easily "cracked" of the subsidy lock, so that's more fortunate if you want to stick with Nokia.

It's definitely legal to remove the subsidy lock, but it is sort of a moral issue for at least the US residents.  Most phones are "sold" to users at deep discounts with the lock, to force people to "pay back" the subsidy by the monthly fee, hence the correct term "subsidy lock".

Well a company like say, Samsung, reinvents the wheel every few models and keeps hush about their methods to increase reverse engineering times. In the UK here, its hardly ever a choice for a contract buyer, as the Samsung phone on offer will be leagues ahead of the others. I suspect they pay a lot of money to the big (provider-based) phone shops to create this situation. But then they don't offer any tech support whatsoever beyond how to put a CD into windows. Because of this, geeks don't buy them, and despise these sorts of companies.

Nokia is the other end of the scale, they have a different approach. They like to share specs, keep fittings as generic as possible, they provide good driver support, firmware tools etc... this has gotten a lot of respect from phone geeks, in fact geeks love Nokia!! So I figure, if you want to mess around with a phone, it may as well be a Nokia. Even if has some proprietary components from the network that contracted it out, you have good odds that someone somewhere has a webpage up explaining how to deal with it.

The problem:

We have, but it's like trying to replace a $1100 transmission in a car that's worth $700. It just isn't done.

Remember this guy did this for a living. If he says it's not worth the cost of fixing, he's right, but it would apply to new parts. Maybe, as you want to use second hand parts, maybe. Get on the Nokia forums and ask/read around before you waste any money. If the goal is to learn something about phones, and have fun, just grab a second-hand Nokia in better condition and without a lock on it.

I don't see why you think a phone locked to an American provider could not be unlocked if it is physically in Canada

[relic2279]

but it would apply to new parts. Maybe, as you want to use second hand parts, maybe. Get on the Nokia forums and ask/read around before you waste any money. If the goal is to learn something about phones, and have fun, just grab a second-hand Nokia in better condition and without a lock on it.

The phone's problem is almost certainly internal physical damage. (My guess is moisture damage) Definitely doesn't sound like a software problem to me. But the two are not always exclusive. The parts aren't expensive. Knowing what to repair and how, is. Aka, Labor.


Edit: If you are desperate, buy some contact cleaner from radio shack, or 97% pure or better rubbing alcohol (this is important, don't buy less than 97%). Get an old toothbrush and take your phone apart. Scrub the PCB with the toothbrush dipped in the contact cleaner.

That used to work with moisture damage about 20% of the time. Guess it depends on how desperate you are.

[Freedom Kira]

While looking around, it seems that Nokia appears to be more easily "cracked" of the subsidy lock, so that's more fortunate if you want to stick with Nokia.

It's definitely legal to remove the subsidy lock, but it is sort of a moral issue for at least the US residents.  Most phones are "sold" to users at deep discounts with the lock, to force people to "pay back" the subsidy by the monthly fee, hence the correct term "subsidy lock".

Honestly I think all phone companies should just sell the hardware outright up front and make monthly costs cheaper.  It would make the entry barrier higher but hey... less users is great too.  Then there will be no need for crap like "subsidy locks"...  (or make it clear that people are payment planning the phone, and remove the payment plan once it's paid off... but they don't do that so they make more money from you if you don't "get a new contract"...

*sigh*

That < $50 phone looks like the best way to go for people who want cell service but don't want to pay for a $500 smartphone...

Only earlier Nokia models can be easily cracked because the algorithm for generating the unlock code was reverse engineered - the code is generated from the IMEI number. Newer models like the 5310 use a more advanced algorithm involving a random number. I don't know the details.

The lock doesn't even guarantee the provider income - it just makes it harder for the customer to switch providers. It's the phone plan that locks the customer in. Even the phone I purchased for $250 (Nokia 5300) was locked, and that was the full purchase price. I should have the right to do what I want with what I buy, right?

The problem:

We have, but it's like trying to replace a $1100 transmission in a car that's worth $700. It just isn't done.

Remember this guy did this for a living. If he says it's not worth the cost of fixing, he's right, but it would apply to new parts. Maybe, as you want to use second hand parts, maybe. Get on the Nokia forums and ask/read around before you waste any money. If the goal is to learn something about phones, and have fun, just grab a second-hand Nokia in better condition and without a lock on it.

I don't see why you think a phone locked to an American provider could not be unlocked if it is physically in Canada

A new phone costs around $100 unlocked. That's not including shipping. A used phone goes for about half that, and a damaged one goes dirt cheap. I'm waiting to snipe one on eBay that ends in a day and a half or so. The mobo's working, just the screen is damaged, it seems. I'll have to unlock it, which would cost about $30.

No, that wasn't my point - just that if it is locked to an American provider, it is guaranteed to be locked to a different network than the one I'm using in Canada. I'd have a better chance of not having to unlock it (yet) if the phone came from Canada because the phone could potentially be locked to the same network.

The phone's problem is almost certainly internal physical damage. (My guess is moisture damage) Definitely doesn't sound like a software problem to me. But the two are not always exclusive. The parts aren't expensive. Knowing what to repair and how, is. Aka, Labor.

Edit: If you are desperate, buy some contact cleaner from radio shack, or 97% pure or better rubbing alcohol (this is important, don't buy less than 97%). Get an old toothbrush and take your phone apart. Scrub the PCB with the toothbrush dipped in the contact cleaner.

That used to work with moisture damage about 20% of the time. Guess it depends on how desperate you are.

Not really desperate enough to try that... and the chances of success sound low. I'll take my chances with the eBay phone.

By the way, I had a company try to unlock my 5300 and they failed (tried the code twice, didn't unlock), and told me that I would have to pay $100 to send it in to hard-unlock it. Is that normal?

Also, still want confirmation that the SIMlock/subsidy lock is on the mobo...

[relic2279]

By the way, I had a company try to unlock my 5300 and they failed (tried the code twice, didn't unlock), and told me that I would have to pay $100 to send it in to hard-unlock it. Is that normal?

$100 to unlock a phone? That's insane. There is no such thing as a "hard unlock" that I'm aware of. It's all software. Hell, T-mobile will unlock your phone for free, no questions asked if you call them and simply ask nicely.

Also, still want confirmation that the SIMlock/subsidy lock is on the mobo...

The subsidy/simlock would not fade your phone to black. Or shut it off. That's like your car not turning over when you turn the key, and thinking it's not turning over because you are out of gas. Even if you are out of gas, the engine should still turn over.

[Freedom Kira]

$100 to unlock a phone? That's insane. There is no such thing as a "hard unlock" that I'm aware of. It's all software. Hell, T-mobile will unlock your phone for free, no questions asked if you call them and simply ask nicely.

But how would you unlock a hard-locked phone? That's what they were worried about, because the third try would hard-lock the phone and make it unusable.

The subsidy/simlock would not fade your phone to black. Or shut it off. That's like your car not turning over when you turn the key, and thinking it's not turning over because you are out of gas. Even if you are out of gas, the engine should still turn over.

I mean, is the SIMlock located on the mobo (and not the SIM reader)? So if I were to switch out the mobo for a new one, would I have to unlock it from the network the new mobo was on (if it is a used one)? I haven't taken the mobo out of the phone before so I don't know if the SIM reader is connected to the mobo or not.

[daveLovesIt]

But how would you unlock a hard-locked phone? That's what they were worried about, because the third try would hard-lock the phone and make it unusable.

Same thing as sim-block when you put in a wrong PIN too many times. Either ring the network provider, or take it to a phone shop that knows what they are doing. The only reason I would imagine a network provider won't unblock a phone, it flags up as being reported stolen.

I'm almost certain this "hard-unlock" for $100 is a scam. What it probably means is, "I'll send it to my cousins shop, and he'll plug it into his PC; unlike me, he knows his stuff. Please pay my shipping fees." Thinking a phone cannot be unlocked because network codes don't work is like saying "I cannot copy my SAM file because Windows doesn't allow it."

[Freedom Kira]

I had that feeling, yeah. What should I do with the 5300 then?

Side note, I grabbed the damaged phone for $20-ish USD, so about $27 USD with shipping.