Author Topic: Incest  (Read 16260 times)

Offline datora

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Re: Incest
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2010, 02:38:37 PM »
.
Fort anyone who missed it, there's an incest thread currently active in the Adult Section:

> Hentai Paradise > Incest Hentai !

A couple relevant comments there.

My take on it is that I have a very open mind.  In teh Big Picture, my only serious concerns are:

1) NO child abuse/mind rape (parent-child, much older aunt/uncle-"too young" niece/nephew, etc.)

2) inbreeding and genetic considerations are critical and must be dealt with responsibly by all parties concerned

Outside of those guidelines, so long as the relationship is healthy and free of mental abuse (factors for any relationship), it's really none of my business and I wish anyone well who can find a loving partner.  I even dated one of my own cousins for about a year once, and I've known a couple of brother-sister relationships over the years, which did no harm to anyone.

So, I guess I feel there are far more serious problems in the world to waste my time getting upset about.  Pedophile priests and rapists and child molesters, for examples.
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Offline Garret02

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Re: Incest
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2010, 02:44:16 PM »
lol, I know that, but what I meant was...
Although we are biologically animals, we have developed things etc and we superseded animals on an intellectual level

So you're basically saying, that we are not animals because we are smarter, correct? Well, it doesn't make us not animals :P But enough of this offtop. It's not the topic for discussion about whether humans are animals or not so let's go back to the topic.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 02:48:30 PM by Garret02 »

Offline flyawave

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Re: Incest
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2010, 02:46:16 PM »
^ indeed
OT does anyone else think that if two siblings together that they become more "man and woman" then bro and sis?
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Offline Tiffanys

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Re: Incest
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2010, 02:55:57 PM »
^ indeed
OT does anyone else think that if two siblings together that they become more "man and woman" then bro and sis?

Well, I think that's up to them, isn't it?

Offline ludwigrm

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Re: Incest
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2010, 03:09:43 PM »
I think that incest in real world is something we shoudn't morally accept, first and foremost to protect the people who make incest. it's not only a social matter, it has do with istinct.
everyone feels instinctively repulsion toward parents/sibling under that point of view and when that does not happen and there is a sexual intercourse between very close relatives, then istinct makes other people say: "no. stay in line".

Except, it has nothing to do with "instincts" at all. It's prejudice and closed mindedness passed onto us at a very young age from society.

Most people fear or even despise the thought of either being naked publicly or seeing certain other people in the nude publicly. Is this an instinct? No. No, it isn't. It's programmed into us by society. The same way most of society somehow believes boobies are bad.

In our natural state, we'd be perfectly fine going around stark naked (and obviously just seeing another naked creature doesn't "harm" us in any way). But, I think I've made my point. It's not instincts at all, it's influence from the society around us and what they tell us is "right" or "morally just." It has very little to do with ones own thoughts, it's just accepted because "that's how things are."

I also think that when someone feels attracted to, for istance, his sister, it does not mean that he his different from "normal" people, it only means that he is child-like, immature: those kind of people are probably afraid of the world and subconsciously think to the their sister as the woman they can have without going outside of the house. I think they like their sister because she is the only woman they think they can have. it happens to most children with siblings but it is something subconscious and usually disappears when they grow up. I heard of teenegers feeling attracted to sisters/brothers, they are probably just a bit immature.

Maybe there are exeptions, siblings who really really love each other without being mentally disturbed or just immature, but I don't know.

I don't really agree with you here and I don't really feel it's right to judge people like that. I mean from your logic, you could say the exact same thing about same sex couples. "Oh, well they're just immature, mentally disturbed and sick." Yes, well... it's taken a long time, but as a society we're slowly overcoming that line of thinking. Unfortunately, most people are still stuck in the dark ages when it comes to incest, just like they were about homosexuality just a couple decades ago.

that being said, I'm for absolute freedom.... if two adults feel that need, although they're close relatives, then... well, do as you want, but it is morally wrong, it goes against nature.

How does it go against nature? If you look in the animal Kingdom, most fathers will mate with their daughters (Lions, Wolves, just about every pack animal) and the strongest genetic material possible is passed on to the next generation. Of course, lions fight to the death and we don't quite exactly do that in our society. But as far as nature is concerned, it's a perfectly acceptable practice and quite common among the animal kingdom.


I'm not an anthropoligist, nor a doctor, neither are you I suppose. So those are my stataments and there is no reason why yuo should suppose yours are so much more important than those of the other people...

You just say that it has to do with culture, not with istinct. You are an ignorant, because you don't even know what you are talking about. and you're just denying reality.
While homosexuality has always existed in every society, I don't know of any society where incest is a common thing and accepted, nor in the past, nor in the present if not for very particular reasons.
Egyptians? only royal family.
Among ancient Romans it was allowed between brothers and sisters, but as far as they were only "half siblings": they must not have to be the kids of the same mother. and they were accepted, not blessed.
In the Ancient Greece... well, they were totally against it, Sophocles even wrote a drama about it.
I know incest is quite common among lions, but for a practical reason: there are too few lions to procreate with only "strangers".


I also tried to give a psychological explanation of the thing, which you did not. you talk about kiss x sis: are you an idiot? they are not bloody related.

People who make incest, in my opinion, need a psychologist, because I think they do what they do only because they are a bit immature and afraid of the outside world.

I tried to explain my point, you just tried to go against me, not against my statements.

As far as I am ocncerned, two adult consenting people can fck who the hell they want, I just think it is wrong.

I don't know why are you taking that so seriously and I honestly don't care, you ignorant,.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 03:33:57 PM by ludwigrm »

Offline Tiffanys

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Re: Incest
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2010, 03:22:18 PM »
I'm not an anthropoligist, nor a doctor, neither are you I suppose.

I am a Doctor, actually. A Geneticist, in fact. We're quite within my realm of expertise.

(click to show/hide)

As for the rest of your post, you ignored every point I made and went on to personally insult me repeatedly. You don't deserve a response. I can't help but feel your entire purpose here is solely to troll.

Offline TightMuffin

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Re: Incest
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2010, 03:33:28 PM »
Personally, I'd never take part in an incestuous relationship myself, but I think that if it's between two consenting adults, nobody really has a right to criticize them.

Offline Garret02

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Re: Incest
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2010, 03:45:23 PM »
I'm not an anthropoligist, nor a doctor, neither are you I suppose. So those are my stataments and there is no reason why yuo should suppose yours are so much more important than those of the other people...

You just say that it has to do with culture, not with istinct. You are an ignorant, because you don't even know what you are talking about. and you're just denying reality.

I really like how people say one thing is wrong and then they do this exact same wrong thing :P

While homosexuality has always existed in every society, I don't know of any society where incest is a common thing and accepted, nor in the past, nor in the present if not for very particular reasons.

Yeah, maybe this is why he did say it's a culture thing. You know IMO it would be really hard to achieve over 6 bilion population from let's say 10k base without A LOT of incest. It just isn't accepted in society. In past it was probably ONLY due to the retard children but nowdays we tend to overreact about everything and label something as "immoral". You know, morals depends on person in question AND times we live on. The fact that majority of people thinks something is moral or not doesn't mean it is indeed moral or not. In fact IMHO terms "moral" and "immoral" shouldn't be used at all, because it all depends on person in question. But our society (and democracy) operates on very stupid assumption that majority of people is wise/right.

People who make incest, in my opinion, need a psychologist, because I think they do what they do only because they are a bit immature and afraid of the outside world.
Because sex is something we have to connect to emotions and feelings and psychological state?

I tried to explain my point, you just tried to go against me, not against my statements.

Nope, I'm pretty sure he/she tried to explain to you why he/she disagrees with you. You know, that's how the discussions go. One person says one thing and other person tries to counter your arguments which he/she feels are wrong.

Offline ludwigrm

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Re: Incest
« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2010, 03:50:59 PM »

I am a Doctor, actually. A Geneticist, in fact. We're quite within my realm of expertise.

(click to show/hide)

As for the rest of your post, you ignored every point I made and went on to personally insult me repeatedly. You don't deserve a response. I can't help but feel your entire purpose here is solely to troll.

troll? trolls don't make explanations...
I insulted you for the reason I said before. And I DID answer to EVERY SINGLE POINT (lions, ancient and present societies, kissxsis), unless I forgot something.

Are you a genetist? Since you are a genetist, when are you going to try to at least explain your theories? you DID NOT 'til now.



As for me, I'm graduated in Latin and Greek Literature, I read a lot of stories, I studied about a lot of ancient societies and I brought here my knowledge about it, while you just keep saying: "let them get laid with whom they want!".

Offline TightMuffin

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Re: Incest
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2010, 04:14:02 PM »

I am a Doctor, actually. A Geneticist, in fact. We're quite within my realm of expertise.

(click to show/hide)

As for the rest of your post, you ignored every point I made and went on to personally insult me repeatedly. You don't deserve a response. I can't help but feel your entire purpose here is solely to troll.

troll? trolls don't make explanations...
I insulted you for the reason I said before. And I DID answer to EVERY SINGLE POINT (lions, ancient and present societies, kissxsis), unless I forgot something.

Are you a genetist? Since you are a genetist, when are you going to try to at least explain your theories? you DID NOT 'til now.



As for me, I'm graduated in Latin and Greek Literature, I read a lot of stories, I studied about a lot of ancient societies and I brought here my knowledge about it, while you just keep saying: "let them get laid with whom they want!".

Huh?  Since when are trolls not allowed to make explanations?  I thought continuing the trollish argument for as long as it can reasonably continue, or as long as it remains amusing, is pretty much standard operating procedure for a troll.  I guess there are those of the weaker variety that prefer a "fire and forget" approach, but that's kind of boring...

Offline fohfoh

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Re: Incest
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2010, 06:01:31 PM »
I personally think that ludwigrm knows a lot of stuff, but misinterprets a lots of stuff too.

As far as I know, the abolition of incest began with animism. Or, the origins of religion if you want to think of it that way. However, if you jump onto a mentality of "religion does it, I'm an atheist, therefore, I'm opposite and incest is acceptable and fine." you're obviously a moron. Animism is taken as the root of religion, but the original definition and a definition still at times argued and debated for the root of the word religion in religious studies is a teaching that is carried forward from someone in the past. That means that something as simple as a name is technically religious because it carried forward from a prior generation.

Now, fuck the history lesson, ignore the moronic responses to the people who don't bother to read and let's more forward.

In ancient times, considered prior to large civilizations, it was discovered that high levels of incest would cause destruction within a tribe. It would weaken tribes and also cause a lot of complications health wise in individuals. Animism therefore presented the tribe with certain things. Identity and rules. Rules within the tribe to keep it safe and ensure survival.  (the latter being the true goal of the rules) and Identity. To know which tribes are enemies and to know which tribes were "safe" to have interchanging of genetics to ensure the survival of both tribes. While most glaze over the interactions as strategic alliances, there is also an underlying exchange of genetics. Marriage etc. Water world gives a little interesting take on such an idea of incest, or the fact that genetics are being spooled out. Another case study (forgot which class it was, some soci class) showed that a village that had been hidden away for a long time ended up with genes that were pretty much stretched too far genetically (or however you would refer to the continual exchange of similar genes). They discovered issues with puberty. Females that would not develop into males such until after puberty when correct chemicals stimulate proper growth. (This is a video case study)

Now, those that would argue, if they want to ride to self destruction, let them do so. Great statement. But realize also the difference in context. The above contextual level is based on the idea of a communal society. Damaging one part of it is unacceptable. The argument in this paragraph which is an emulation of others like it is a statement based on individualistic perspective. What XY does will not affect me. So why care? In a totally individualistic society, I can possibly agree. However, to remove laws concerning this IMO is pure idiocy. It creates moral hazard (taking more risk than you would generally take).

People love all sorts of things that are not socially accepted. Get with the fucking program. Big example, illegal drugs. There's a legal side, and an illegal one. You don't see a huge clamor for consensus for the legalization of it. Though certainly people have tried. On the other hand, you also see people engage in it legal or not, socially accepted or not.

If you are engaged in something somewhat illegal for (IMO, outdated, but legit reasons) and you just want people to accept you for it so that you can feel better about yourself... that's stupid. But if someone can provide true legitimate grounds as to there being no negative effects of incest, I cannot see why tradition should be considered a golden cow and not be changed.

However, legitimate reason stands to uphold the illegality of incest. Or at least I have been led to believe with both tradition and empirical data from religion AND science.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 06:03:46 PM by fohfoh »
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Offline phufham

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Re: Incest
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2010, 06:03:07 PM »
i say if they want to then let em

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Offline fohfoh

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Re: Incest
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2010, 06:13:25 PM »
i say if they want to then let em

Just because I'm not going to bug them for doing so doesn't mean I'm going to rally for the legalization of it. On the contrary. Now, you're making me get off my fat ass for something I don't care about. I'd rather fight against you. Seems more fun.

Not you as in you. I meant you as in those who engage in incest.
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Offline JoonasTo

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Re: Incest
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2010, 06:17:46 PM »
Just to uphold the wolves' honour. They pair for life. And only the alpha pair has puppies. They have no place in this discussion.

Because we can!

Offline Tiffanys

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Re: Incest
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2010, 06:37:59 PM »
Incest itself isn't the problem, it's siring children from close blood relations due to the nature of recessive alleles.

Generally everyone has some sort of recessive disease of some kind or another. When mates are chosen from a non-related group then generally there's a very small chance that you're going to happen to find a mate that possesses the same recessive diseases that you do. But, if you were to mate with say your brother or sister, then there's quite a higher chance depending on how closely your genetic similarities are. Identical twins for instance would have a hell of a time, except for the fact that identical twins have that whole tiny little problem of not being able to sire offspring with the same gender and all. Generally, if you get half from your mother and half from your father than you have a 1 in 4 chance of having something and your sibling would also have a 1 in 4 chance which then makes it a 1 in 16 chance of passing it on to your offspring if the two of you were to get it on.

So, producing offspring with a close blood relation is generally not a good idea since it has much higher chances of producing bad results (1/16 compared to about 1/800). But, with that aside, I don't see any problem between the relationships themselves. Sexual, or otherwise.

Obviously, I suspect we'll be able to have designer babies sometime in the somewhat near future, so it wouldn't really be a problem at that point. But until then, adoption and the like or just not having children should be an option. But, they should be able to have their relationship. I do believe there's a law of some sort, at least in the US that reads something like, "No private sexual relations between two consenting adults shall be made unlawful" or something along those lines, which I think this should certainly fall under.

I'm not against regulating child bearing among incestuous relationships, bearing screenings and the like (and possibly out right rejection and abortions enforced), but they should have every right in the world to have an intimate relationship with whoever they'd like. As long as they're both consenting adults I really see no problem with it.

Offline TightMuffin

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Re: Incest
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2010, 09:21:29 PM »
How would they enforce it?  Force an abortion if the fetus is a product of incest?  Sterilize all incestuous couples ahead of time?  I don't necessarily disagree that such couples shouldn't be reproducing, but I think it's a bit unrealistic to try to stop them from doing so.

Also, not like there aren't already a lot of other people out there who shouldn't be reproducing but do anyway, and put their kids through hell as a result of their poor judgment...
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 09:24:17 PM by TightMuffin »

Offline undetz

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Re: Incest
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2010, 09:59:25 PM »
I also tried to give a psychological explanation of the thing, which you did not.
In fact, neither did you as I pointed out earlier, instead you speculated wildly and made things up.

Offline donald1

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Re: Incest
« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2010, 10:12:30 PM »

Also, not like there aren't already a lot of other people out there who shouldn't be reproducing but do anyway, and put their kids through hell as a result of their poor judgment...

nothing could be more true. there are countless people out there making offspring rigt now even though they really, really, really should not. couples in extreme poverty for example. so many children suffer every year cuz the parents didnt stop to think 'is this a good time' or 'can we actually do this'. many are just plain unfit to be parents.

but!

wasnt the point of this thread about the actual relationship instead of the results thereof?

Offline TightMuffin

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Re: Incest
« Reply #38 on: October 08, 2010, 10:32:15 PM »
Yeah, but it's hard not to bring up that point, since the entire reason the taboo exists is because of those results.

Offline ludwigrm

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Re: Incest
« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2010, 12:11:08 AM »
I also tried to give a psychological explanation of the thing, which you did not.
In fact, neither did you as I pointed out earlier, instead you speculated wildly and made things up.

how can you say I didn't? just learn to read.