Author Topic: Incest  (Read 16241 times)

Online Tiffanys

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Incest
« on: October 08, 2010, 02:38:58 AM »
I was thinking about it, and I'd like to hear what you guys think about it.

Incest. As in, private consensual sexual relations between two adults closely blood related.

Is it bad? Why is it bad? Do you actually think that, or do you think that just because it's what society has programmed you to think and you haven't actually thought about it?

So, here's what I have to say about it... I think most people think it's bad because they're told that it's supposed to be sick and disgusting. And then people think about having sex with their mother, father, etc. and just think "oh god, gross, ew" and that's how the thought process goes. I think the worst possible labels are being applied.

And yes, while I do agree in the situations where someone thinks "oh, gross, ewwww" about relations with a family member that it would actually be a bad thing. But, for closely blood related adults that don't feel that way towards each other and actually have strong feelings for one another, I don't see what the problem is. I'm speaking in terms of being morally and socially acceptable. Why is it wrong?

There is, of course, the concern over closely blood related relatives siring children due to the recessive alleles they would share, which is what generally causes birth defects and the passing of other diseases and disorders that they happen to be carriers of. There's quite a larger chance depending on how closely related they are than unrelated pairings. But in my opinion one single pairing of two genetically similar donors doesn't provide a significant enough reason for it to not only be actually banned across most of the world, but also socially and culturally unacceptable and considered totally disgusting (it is, of course, very commonplace in the animal kingdom). The problem generally arises when genetically similar offspring seek other genetically similar mates, that's when things like the Habsburg jaw start happening, among other things like cystic fibrosis becoming quite a bit more common.

Anyhow, I don't see how one iteration is inherently bad, especially if they don't sire offspring. That is generally the problem, no? I mean, what if they're sisters? Obviously they're not going to have children together, but whose to say they can't love each other and be together? I think it's a bit bad of us as a society to try to force moral values on everyone rather than letting people decide for themselves.

Of course, on another note... I do see how incest among non-adults whether consenting or not could be very prone to abuse and that should be protected. But, I don't really see a moral problem with it among consenting adults myself.

It's a pretty common theme among some anime recently (kiss x sis for example), so I just wanted to see what you guys here thought about it.

Offline SeventyX7

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Re: Incest
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2010, 02:44:31 AM »
I think you're more or less right that one iteration doesn't do any harm.

The problem is that the taboo needs to remain strong to prevent the bad sort of incest, the kind that shallows the genetic diversity pool, and that's why we shouldn't allow exceptions "because they're in love."

Online Tiffanys

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Re: Incest
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2010, 02:52:53 AM »
I'm all for society looking down on it (I don't really think people should, but it keeps some of the worst of the iterations from happening), but I don't think it should be illegal because we shouldn't have a right to tell people what to do. It's forcing moral values on them which I think is wrong.

The worst I think we should do is ban producing offspring among closely related couples that don't pass certain genetic screenings, but allow their relations and even marriage. There's nothing wrong with adoption, in that sense.

Though, we're pretty close to being able to have designer babies, so it probably won't be a problem within the next 50 years (that's a very generous timeframe... it'll likely be much sooner) and we'll likely change the laws. I just think my way of thinking is probably a bit ahead of my time.

Offline vuzedome

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Re: Incest
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2010, 04:27:40 AM »
Siblings, no.
Parents, no.
Blood relatives.......... .. no.
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Offline tomoya-kun

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Re: Incest
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2010, 05:11:14 AM »
I'm all for society looking down on it (I don't really think people should, but it keeps some of the worst of the iterations from happening), but I don't think it should be illegal because we shouldn't have a right to tell people what to do. It's forcing moral values on them which I think is wrong.


We already do that on a daily basis.  Banning of drugs usages, guns (canada), no alcohol for minors, all sorts of other restrictions and moral values are already being imposed.

I have nothing against incest.


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Offline JoonasTo

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Re: Incest
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2010, 10:36:25 AM »
One link doesn't mean anything, it's the series of links over many generations that do. Like Europe's rulers' history.
The actual risk differs with populations. I think second cousins in Finnland are already at the same level as any other couple of two Finns. I imagine that in the big cities of U.S.A. there is a lot more variation so to say even fifth cousins will still have bigger risk of transmitting genetic diseases than some random couple.

You know it mostly doesn't happen because normally people don't feel sexually interested in a person whom they've grown up with.
So the cases where it does happen are in some way special. Father/daughter who hadn't even met each other. Siblings who've lived away from each other, etc.
Or the darker side that is in the news at times. A snapped father, sick mother, frustrated brother, etc. That's why the laws are there at all I believe.

I don't count cousins, cousins are legal in most of the countries anyways.
Just a random fact, Belgium has no laws regarding incest. Make out of that what you will.

Kiss X Sis isn't incest in the real sense of the word. They aren't related outside of paper.
I think why it's so usual in anime and manga is just because the writers are all only childs playing out their fantasies.
Plus it's forbidden, everything forbidden makes people take notice.

If both are in full sense and health I don't see any reason to bother them. They shouldn't care about what others think, if it's what makes them happy. Fuck society!
Society allows two men to go hanky panky what basis does it have to not allowing two people related by blood to do that?

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Offline erious

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Re: Incest
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2010, 11:48:17 AM »
Incest is pretty cool in fiction.
Especially in romantic stories.
I have an older sister that I'm completely not attracted to. Other then social stigma and her not being my type in the slightest, there's one more thing that makes it impossible - I know her too well. All the good things, all the bad things, all the ugly things. And she knows me just as well. We get along pretty good(as much as is possible in a family as dysfunctional as ours), but when you know someone that good, and knew them most of their life, it's very hard to get past all the accumulated little flaws and grudges.
So if there are siblings who know each other that well, and still fall in love romantically, it signifies that their love is really strong. It's not going to one day just vanish because they learned the other isn't as perfect as they thought, as is possible with normal couples.
It's also interesting in porn, taboo's always are - and the romance bit can be applied here as well.
In real life... I agree that the social stigma is somewhat necessary, however as long as you don't produce offspring, I don't personally see anything wrong with it. Of course, there are many things that can possibly go wrong with such a relationship - but they aren't by any means exclusive or inherent to incestuous relationships. I have a bit of a problem with parent-child incest, though - other than some very specific situations(well, I guess situations in which incestuous relationships might develop are already specific, but even more than that), I can't see the parent entering such a relationship as anything but selfish and unconcerned about his child's happiness.
And of course, there's nothing wrong with homosexual incest - it's easy to tell whether someone is homophobic and prejudiced without thinking things trough on his own, just ask him whether he considers incest between two sisters or two brothers as bad as between brother and sister.

Offline ludwigrm

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Re: Incest
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2010, 12:13:25 PM »
I think that incest in real world is something we shoudn't morally accept, first and foremost to protect the people who make incest. it's not only a social matter, it has do with istinct.
everyone feels instinctively repulsion toward parents/sibling under that point of view and when that does not happen and there is a sexual intercourse between very close relatives, then istinct makes other people say: "no. stay in line".

I also think that when someone feels attracted to, for istance, his sister, it does not mean that he his different from "normal" people, it only means that he is child-like, immature: those kind of people are probably afraid of the world and subconsciously think to the their sister as the woman they can have without going outside of the house. I think they like their sister because she is the only woman they think they can have. it happens to most children with siblings but it is something subconscious and usually disappears when they grow up. I heard of teenegers feeling attracted to sisters/brothers, they are probably just a bit immature.

Maybe there are exeptions, siblings who really really love each other without being mentally disturbed or just immature, but I don't know.

that being said, I'm for absolute freedom.... if two adults feel that need, although they're close relatives, then... well, do as you want, but it is morally wrong, it goes against nature.

Offline Enzedder

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Re: Incest
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2010, 12:51:00 PM »
I stand by Shakespeare's little statement on this one... "Nothing is either good nor bad, but thinking makes it so." Of course it has its limits but it just pushes the idea of acceptance to me.

I understand why its frowned upon and I am not a great supporter of it but I am not going to shove it down someone's throat or tell them that they can't do it just because of that. If someone feels that way then let them. If its a mutual acceptance of each others feelings/desires then fine. If its a one-sided though... then no.

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Offline DLTE

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Re: Incest
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2010, 01:05:57 PM »
Parents = no

siblings = no

cousins = a little? one of my cousin is really hot. only chance to see her is once a year and haven't saw her for 5years already

Online Tiffanys

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Re: Incest
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2010, 02:05:14 PM »
I think that incest in real world is something we shoudn't morally accept, first and foremost to protect the people who make incest. it's not only a social matter, it has do with istinct.
everyone feels instinctively repulsion toward parents/sibling under that point of view and when that does not happen and there is a sexual intercourse between very close relatives, then istinct makes other people say: "no. stay in line".

Except, it has nothing to do with "instincts" at all. It's prejudice and closed mindedness passed onto us at a very young age from society.

Most people fear or even despise the thought of either being naked publicly or seeing certain other people in the nude publicly. Is this an instinct? No. No, it isn't. It's programmed into us by society. The same way most of society somehow believes boobies are bad.

In our natural state, we'd be perfectly fine going around stark naked (and obviously just seeing another naked creature doesn't "harm" us in any way). But, I think I've made my point. It's not instincts at all, it's influence from the society around us and what they tell us is "right" or "morally just." It has very little to do with ones own thoughts, it's just accepted because "that's how things are."

I also think that when someone feels attracted to, for istance, his sister, it does not mean that he his different from "normal" people, it only means that he is child-like, immature: those kind of people are probably afraid of the world and subconsciously think to the their sister as the woman they can have without going outside of the house. I think they like their sister because she is the only woman they think they can have. it happens to most children with siblings but it is something subconscious and usually disappears when they grow up. I heard of teenegers feeling attracted to sisters/brothers, they are probably just a bit immature.

Maybe there are exeptions, siblings who really really love each other without being mentally disturbed or just immature, but I don't know.

I don't really agree with you here and I don't really feel it's right to judge people like that. I mean from your logic, you could say the exact same thing about same sex couples. "Oh, well they're just immature, mentally disturbed and sick." Yes, well... it's taken a long time, but as a society we're slowly overcoming that line of thinking. Unfortunately, most people are still stuck in the dark ages when it comes to incest, just like they were about homosexuality just a couple decades ago.

that being said, I'm for absolute freedom.... if two adults feel that need, although they're close relatives, then... well, do as you want, but it is morally wrong, it goes against nature.

How does it go against nature? If you look in the animal Kingdom, most fathers will mate with their daughters (Lions, Wolves, just about every pack animal) and the strongest genetic material possible is passed on to the next generation. Of course, lions fight to the death and we don't quite exactly do that in our society. But as far as nature is concerned, it's a perfectly acceptable practice and quite common among the animal kingdom.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 02:07:16 PM by Tiffanys »

Offline flyawave

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Re: Incest
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2010, 02:10:32 PM »
How does it go against nature? If you look in the animal Kingdom, most fathers will mate with their daughters (Lions, Wolves, just about every pack animal) and the strongest genetic material possible is passed on to the next generation. Of course, lions fight to the death and we don't quite exactly do that in our society. But as far as nature is concerned, it's a perfectly acceptable practice and quite common among the animal kingdom.
Are you an animal... no

from y point of view the natural human reaction to incest is a negative one... therefore it is bad
I mean, If siblings get together (I'm not even going to talk about parents, that's just sick on a whole new level) a certain special sibling bond would be shattered by the incest, not strengthened as some may claim
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Re: Incest
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2010, 02:15:06 PM »
How does it go against nature? If you look in the animal Kingdom, most fathers will mate with their daughters (Lions, Wolves, just about every pack animal) and the strongest genetic material possible is passed on to the next generation. Of course, lions fight to the death and we don't quite exactly do that in our society. But as far as nature is concerned, it's a perfectly acceptable practice and quite common among the animal kingdom.
Are you an animal... no

from y point of view the natural human reaction to incest is a negative one... therefore it is bad
I mean, If siblings get together (I'm not even going to talk about parents, that's just sick on a whole new level) a certain special sibling bond would be shattered by the incest, not strengthened as some may claim

To that, I just repeat my previous post.

We had a generally negative response to homosexuals (it's even death in some countries), we had a very negative response to people of different colors (subhuman slaves, and worse), of different creeds and cultures (holy wars, genocides, and worse).

It's human nature that we're like this... humans fear the unknown. But that doesn't in any way make it right to do so.

edit: And yes, to your initial question... we are animals. Albeit the most intelligent and adaptive ones on the planet, we are still animals (genetically speaking). It is we, as humans, who apply that label of superiority over every other living thing. We even, quite obviously, do it to members of our own species. Sad when you think about it...
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 02:19:26 PM by Tiffanys »

Offline flyawave

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Re: Incest
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2010, 02:21:10 PM »

it's not fear of the unknown, in this case it's dislike of the well known.
I still reserve my opinion on homosexuals... we don't know nearly enough about them.
Slavery is not a bad thing, some people LITERALLY have no other option(by slavery I mean something quite different to what is the common man's interpretation of slavery...Slaves have a lot of right, including all human rights... except the right to be free)
There must a be a reason for tanking things. And all must be in certain balance.
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Offline undetz

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Re: Incest
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2010, 02:25:47 PM »
I think that incest in real world is something we shoudn't morally accept, first and foremost to protect the people who make incest. it's not only a social matter, it has do with istinct.
everyone feels instinctively repulsion toward parents/sibling under that point of view and when that does not happen and there is a sexual intercourse between very close relatives, then istinct makes other people say: "no. stay in line".

I also think that when someone feels attracted to, for istance, his sister, it does not mean that he his different from "normal" people, it only means that he is child-like, immature: those kind of people are probably afraid of the world and subconsciously think to the their sister as the woman they can have without going outside of the house. I think they like their sister because she is the only woman they think they can have. it happens to most children with siblings but it is something subconscious and usually disappears when they grow up. I heard of teenegers feeling attracted to sisters/brothers, they are probably just a bit immature.

Maybe there are exeptions, siblings who really really love each other without being mentally disturbed or just immature, but I don't know.
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that being said, I'm for absolute freedom.... if two adults feel that need, although they're close relatives, then... well, do as you want, but it is morally wrong, it goes against nature.
But at least you don't want to take your inventions and fabulations and use them to make laws, that's the sole redeeming factor for your previous tripe.




There're a couple of big problems with your line of reasoning, though. Firstly, you conflate "natural" and "moral" and that's a very dangerous thing to do. The line of reasoning goes that it's "natural" for one man and one woman to have sex, therefor it's "immoral" for two men or two women to have sex. It's natural for the man to put food on the table and for the woman to take care of the children, therefor it's immoral for women to work and for men to stay at home. It's natural that the strong thrive and the weak perish, therefor it's immoral to support those who can't support themselves.
You see where this is going, right? Moral and natural have nothing to do with each other. Morality is concerned with how people should treat each other and, to a lesser degree, with how people should treat non-human beings and the world in which they live. The question of what's "natural" is, imo, a dead end. Anything that can be observed in nature is "natural" by definition, this means that "natural" takes on such a broad meaning that it's practically useless. It also means that "natural" is only concerned with how things are, not with how they can be or how they should be. A question of morality may start by looking at how things are, but the end result is always about how things should be. Those are two quite big gaps you'll have to bridge before getting from the natural to the moral, and you didn't even attempt to do so in your post.

The second problem is your use of "instinct" to derive the immorality of incest. Allow me to disagree and call you out on your bullshit. You claim that people instinctively feel repulsion towards incestual relationships, and then you stop. You don't in any way support your argument, you merely state it and expect us to accept it. What you should be doing is explain why people feeling repulsion towards something is caused by their instincts and not by their upbringing. I can't tell the difference between the two kinds of repulsion, certainly not in other people, I'm amazed that it's so simple for you. Or, more likely, you're talking out of your arse about something you only understand tentatively, if at all. By all means, go ahead and enlighten the rest of us about the different causes for the feeling of repulsion, but until you have presented a compelling argument I will continue to consider the option of any feelings of repulsion resulting from upbringing to be at least as likely as that of them resulting from instincts.

Thirdly and finally, by attempting to make the people you are talking about seem defective in some way, "child-like", "immature", "afraid of the world" and "mentally disturbed" were the terms you used, you only succeed in making yourself look like an arsehole. You don't even consider the possibility that there may be nothing wrong or even different about them, but launch directly into full "make the other group look inferior"-mode. Are you serious? All you do here is speculate about people you've never met, never even talked to. And yet you think you can dismiss them as mentally disturbed, and by implication as not to be taken seriously. But I understand you, it's the easy way to take after all. If the other person can be declared not mentally sound you save yourself a lot of time and effort by dismissing them, especially if you know the majority shares your opinion. But that's not how you get a debate, imagine I had dismissed you as intellectually inferior and left things at my first two lines. I would have saved myself the time and effort it took to type this out, but it wouldn't have been debating. Instead I decided to take you seriously and point out where the flaws are in your argument. Try doing the same sometime, I think it's a good habit top be in.

Offline Garret02

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Re: Incest
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2010, 02:27:11 PM »
Are you an animal... no

Yes, we are. Humans (as much as they hate to admit it) by the laws of this world, biology and nature are animals. So the only way you are any better than the rest of the animals is because we theoreticaly conquered them and their territories. I personally think of us, humans as the worst, lowest kinds of monsters and that we should go extinct in some horrible way. You may think that we are some greater beings than some stupid animals. But the fact remains, we are animals.

As for the topic, I have absolutely nothing against incest. Come one, it's just sex. When a brothers wants to f... make love with his sister and this sister wants to do it with her brother then what is wrong with that? She is a woman, he is a man. Men and women usually do those things so it's not surprising that some might find their family interesting in that kind of way. Sure, maybe having children from incest is not the best idea. Maybe it should be forbidden but only having babies, not sex.

Offline x5ga

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Re: Incest
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2010, 02:30:37 PM »
Incest is only wrong in my opinion because you'd be polluting the gene pool with your offspring, seeing as they have a whopping >25% chance to have serious genetic problems. If you aren't gonna make a baby with your brother/sister or if you get screened for genetic diseases and come up as clean, go ahead and make all the love you can :) There are worse things in the world, though most likely somebody would be more surprised/shocked/disgusted if you told them that you're in love with your sister/brother than if you told them that you murdered a few innocent people while fighting in a war somewhere.

Offline flyawave

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Re: Incest
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2010, 02:31:37 PM »
Are you an animal... no

Yes, we are. Humans (as much as they hate to admit it) by the laws of this world, biology and nature are animals. So the only way you are any better than the rest of the animals is because we theoreticaly conquered them and their territories. I personally think of us, humans as the worst, lowest kinds of monsters and that we should go extinct in some horrible way. You may think that we are some greater beings than some stupid animals. But the fact remains, we are animals.
trust me, I don't like humans as much as you do, but the fact is that we are not the same as animals. Yeah, you can pull science out from wherever, but honestly...you know that animals and humans are not the same thing
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Offline Garret02

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Re: Incest
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2010, 02:35:55 PM »
trust me, I don't like humans as much as you do, but the fact is that we are not the same as animals. Yeah, you can pull science out from wherever, but honestly...you know that animals and humans are not the same thing

You know, dogs and birds have almost none similiarities too, yet we still call them animals :P Yes, we are animals. The fact that the thing our evolution developed was brain is only an unfortunate accident :P

Offline flyawave

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Re: Incest
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2010, 02:38:27 PM »
lol, I know that, but what I meant was...
Although we are biologically animals, we have developed things etc and we superseded animals on an intellectual level
There must a be a reason for tanking things. And all must be in certain balance.
But what that balance is, must depend only on you, nobody else.