Author Topic: Incest  (Read 16272 times)

Offline Soulreaper77

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Re: Incest
« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2010, 12:18:55 AM »
Incest itself isn't the problem, it's siring children from close blood relations due to the nature of recessive alleles.

Generally everyone has some sort of recessive disease of some kind or another. When mates are chosen from a non-related group then generally there's a very small chance that you're going to happen to find a mate that possesses the same recessive diseases that you do. But, if you were to mate with say your brother or sister, then there's quite a higher chance depending on how closely your genetic similarities are. Identical twins for instance would have a hell of a time, except for the fact that identical twins have that whole tiny little problem of not being able to sire offspring with the same gender and all. Generally, if you get half from your mother and half from your father than you have a 1 in 4 chance of having something and your sibling would also have a 1 in 4 chance which then makes it a 1 in 16 chance of passing it on to your offspring if the two of you were to get it on.

So, producing offspring with a close blood relation is generally not a good idea since it has much higher chances of producing bad results (1/16 compared to about 1/800). But, with that aside, I don't see any problem between the relationships themselves. Sexual, or otherwise.

Which is exactly why it's illegal. Most people would want children at some point in their life - natural instinct. And to prevent the human population spiraling into retardation laws were made to prevent incestuous relationships. Because if you tried to have children with your blood related family you would doom your offspring to a life more horrible than living in the poorest place in the world. If looking at incest from a biological standpoint it's the worst thing you can do. Humans have sex to reproduce (pleasure is its secondary function) and reproducing offspring that has a way higher chance to "fail" is bad.
Besides it's only more advantageous for species to diversify their gene pool because it can give birth to whole new levels of protection to the environment and thus increasing the rate of survival.

The relationship itself is not something special. It's just a man and a woman having a relationship. No matter how you label them it all boils down to that simple fact. As long as they do not reproduce themselves I don't really care, even though it disgusts me a bit.



Also to those people that label humans as a separate species than animals are ignorant. Humans are animals, just because we have developed our brain doesn't mean we suddenly become another species. It only happens to be that if you have a higher developed brain surviving becomes more easy. Thus it makes us the most successful animal species that ever existed but animal nonetheless.


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Offline TightMuffin

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Re: Incest
« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2010, 12:30:07 AM »
But, by that same logic, shouldn't we also be sterilizing the mentally retarded, or the insane, or criminals, to keep these traits from spreading?  A bunch of retards going around making more retards does just as much toward 'tarding up our planet as an incestuous couple.

Offline ludwigrm

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Re: Incest
« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2010, 12:50:43 AM »
I think that incest in real world is something we shoudn't morally accept, first and foremost to protect the people who make incest. it's not only a social matter, it has do with istinct.
everyone feels instinctively repulsion toward parents/sibling under that point of view and when that does not happen and there is a sexual intercourse between very close relatives, then istinct makes other people say: "no. stay in line".

I also think that when someone feels attracted to, for istance, his sister, it does not mean that he his different from "normal" people, it only means that he is child-like, immature: those kind of people are probably afraid of the world and subconsciously think to the their sister as the woman they can have without going outside of the house. I think they like their sister because she is the only woman they think they can have. it happens to most children with siblings but it is something subconscious and usually disappears when they grow up. I heard of teenegers feeling attracted to sisters/brothers, they are probably just a bit immature.

Maybe there are exeptions, siblings who really really love each other without being mentally disturbed or just immature, but I don't know.
YES! Let's make shit up! Let's invent facts and reasons that may have nothing to do with reality.

Quote
that being said, I'm for absolute freedom.... if two adults feel that need, although they're close relatives, then... well, do as you want, but it is morally wrong, it goes against nature.
But at least you don't want to take your inventions and fabulations and use them to make laws, that's the sole redeeming factor for your previous tripe.




There're a couple of big problems with your line of reasoning, though. Firstly, you conflate "natural" and "moral" and that's a very dangerous thing to do. The line of reasoning goes that it's "natural" for one man and one woman to have sex, therefor it's "immoral" for two men or two women to have sex. It's natural for the man to put food on the table and for the woman to take care of the children, therefor it's immoral for women to work and for men to stay at home. It's natural that the strong thrive and the weak perish, therefor it's immoral to support those who can't support themselves.
You see where this is going, right? Moral and natural have nothing to do with each other. Morality is concerned with how people should treat each other and, to a lesser degree, with how people should treat non-human beings and the world in which they live. The question of what's "natural" is, imo, a dead end. Anything that can be observed in nature is "natural" by definition, this means that "natural" takes on such a broad meaning that it's practically useless. It also means that "natural" is only concerned with how things are, not with how they can be or how they should be. A question of morality may start by looking at how things are, but the end result is always about how things should be. Those are two quite big gaps you'll have to bridge before getting from the natural to the moral, and you didn't even attempt to do so in your post.

The second problem is your use of "instinct" to derive the immorality of incest. Allow me to disagree and call you out on your bullshit. You claim that people instinctively feel repulsion towards incestual relationships, and then you stop. You don't in any way support your argument, you merely state it and expect us to accept it. What you should be doing is explain why people feeling repulsion towards something is caused by their instincts and not by their upbringing. I can't tell the difference between the two kinds of repulsion, certainly not in other people, I'm amazed that it's so simple for you. Or, more likely, you're talking out of your arse about something you only understand tentatively, if at all. By all means, go ahead and enlighten the rest of us about the different causes for the feeling of repulsion, but until you have presented a compelling argument I will continue to consider the option of any feelings of repulsion resulting from upbringing to be at least as likely as that of them resulting from instincts.

Thirdly and finally, by attempting to make the people you are talking about seem defective in some way, "child-like", "immature", "afraid of the world" and "mentally disturbed" were the terms you used, you only succeed in making yourself look like an arsehole. You don't even consider the possibility that there may be nothing wrong or even different about them, but launch directly into full "make the other group look inferior"-mode. Are you serious? All you do here is speculate about people you've never met, never even talked to. And yet you think you can dismiss them as mentally disturbed, and by implication as not to be taken seriously. But I understand you, it's the easy way to take after all. If the other person can be declared not mentally sound you save yourself a lot of time and effort by dismissing them, especially if you know the majority shares your opinion. But that's not how you get a debate, imagine I had dismissed you as intellectually inferior and left things at my first two lines. I would have saved myself the time and effort it took to type this out, but it wouldn't have been debating. Instead I decided to take you seriously and point out where the flaws are in your argument. Try doing the same sometime, I think it's a good habit top be in.

well, it's not like a speech is shit just because you don't like it...
the only reason why my speech seems so strange is that it is entirely different from yours.

1. I did not invent: my argumentations about "immature siblings" start from a very simple idea: even the strangest things have very pratical reasons as their basis. in this particular case, fear of the outside world. why is it to hard to accept?
"Immature" doesn't mean "monster". I always said "child-like" and "immoral" and only one time "disturbed", because in some cases, in very rare cases (like, I would say, 0,1% of cases?), such a condition could grow worse and develop in a stronger desease, but this applies to every human being who subconsciuously doesn't feel free to act as he/she would like and is not strictly related to only incestuous people.

2. I think it is something instinctual and not cultural because, as I already told before, I don't know of any human group where it is commonly accepted. if it were cultural, then at least in some places it would have to be different, while, on the contrary, it is not as far as I know. How can a cultural concept develop in the very same way throughout the world, in all ages?

why you need that bad a particular explanation? It is not so important, since there are several possible reasons you can easily read about on the net. the most common, which I agree with, is the idea that you shared the same womb with your brother/sister. or, talking about mother/son relationship, the idea of fucking the womb where you come from.

The strangest thing in all this discussion is that I'm being depicted as a racist, which I'm not. But I'm going to end this tomorrow because it is 4 o'clock in my place and I'm too tired to end this one properly.


edit: I never met incestuous people, you say. did you?
I never told, neither implied, that people doing incest are inferior. Almost every single man has his weaknesses, I think incest is an expression of a particular weakness or a way to react to a particular weakness, so if they were "inferior", then almost every single man should be called like that.
still, incest remains something repulsive. but I also said from the beginning (first post) that, if it were for me, I would let them do as they want, while in my country (Italy) it is illegal (even for consenting adults) and parents of an incestuous child are not allowed to keep their baby.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2010, 03:57:10 PM by ludwigrm »

Offline TightMuffin

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Re: Incest
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2010, 01:22:19 AM »
So what if it is instinctual?  Rape is probably instinctual too, but that doesn't make it right.

Offline i_am_otep

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Re: Incest
« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2010, 01:26:50 AM »
A wise boxtorrents member once said:

"Incest is the best! Put your sister to the test!"

Offline TightMuffin

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Re: Incest
« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2010, 01:27:50 AM »
Wise indeed...

Offline Soulreaper77

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Re: Incest
« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2010, 06:56:34 AM »
But, by that same logic, shouldn't we also be sterilizing the mentally retarded, or the insane, or criminals, to keep these traits from spreading?  A bunch of retards going around making more retards does just as much toward 'tarding up our planet as an incestuous couple.

Because who says that that the mentally retarded reproducing with a normal stranger has equal chance to produce a retarded child as an incestuous couple? I don't know because I'm no geneticist. But I think most mental diseases come from 2 recessive genes and each parent passes only 1 to a child so if the mentally ill parent and the normal stranger do not have the same recessive gene then it's the same as any other couple. Even with two mentally retarded I think the chances are normal when they do not have the same disease. Whereas with an incestuous couple the chances are always the same if both are normal (i.e. only have 1 recessive gene).

And what the hell do criminals have to do with this? :/ Criminality isn't a trait passed through genes ... Well there is a chromosome combination that makes people more tempted to do forbidden things or something like that but I think that's a rare combination.

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Offline Garret02

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Re: Incest
« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2010, 07:51:11 AM »
well, it's not like a speech is shit just because you don't like it...
the only reason why my speech seems so strange is that it is entirely different from yours.
Lol, either you need to learn how to read or change your attitude. Because it's normal to not agree with other so we discuss and accusing us of calling you a racist (WTF? where did that come from?) it's either you not knowing how to read or thinking that you are the only one that's right and anyone who disagrees with you is just delusional or something.

1. I did not invent: my argumentations about "immature siblings" start from a very simple idea: even the strangest things have very pratical reasons as their basis. in this particular case, fear of the outside world. why is it to hard to accept?
"Immature" doesn't mean "monster". I always said "child-like" and "immoral" and only one time "disturbed", because in some cases
Why is it hard? Well I personally call a bullshit on your thesis. You say that incest is strange and therefore need a psychological explanation. I disagree. There is hardly something more natural than sex...

2. I think it is something instinctual and not cultural because, as I already told before, I don't know of any human group where it is commonly accepted. if it were cultural, then at least in some places it would have to be different, while, on the contrary, it is not as far as I know. How can a cultural concept develop in the very same way throughout  the world, in all ages?
Insinct does come with incest but only after the child is born. Look at other animals. If new member of thier pack is retarded they kill it or leave it by himself. They do not care until the retard is born. Now we, humans, inventet something very useless called morals or whatever. We do not think that killing retards is good hence we prohibited the most probable way of making retards. So prohibiting incest is cultural because just like other animals, we could just kill retards after they'll be born.

Offline Carnivus

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Re: Incest
« Reply #48 on: October 09, 2010, 09:34:23 AM »
My point of view on this one is a liberal one. Let 'em do what they want. Surely, and abusive father who rapes his daughter is something that should be punished, but if they both agree I don't see why not.

Most of you are judging people outside this perimeter named normal. Anything outside it, it's bad, morally, and to be honest, every other way. There were times when black people were slaves, and it was accepted by everyone. There was a time when the Earth was considered to be flat, and it was a known "fact" by everyone.

All I'm saying is that you take this all to seriously. Do what you want, and let other people do as they feel.

And cut Tiff some slack, she started this thread, not made it legal.

Offline Havoc10K

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Re: Incest
« Reply #49 on: October 09, 2010, 12:09:58 PM »
I PMed my full opinion to Tiffany, I'll say in short here to not poke around to much misunderstandings:

uncontrollable incest is bad for DNA.
Caution + sensitivity, and you can do what you want, if you ask me, that is a very short version, super short if you ask me, it's a lot more complex than you would initially think.

Offline DLTE

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Re: Incest
« Reply #50 on: October 09, 2010, 01:23:44 PM »
Incest causes DNA to go wonky. Evidence provided by Mother Nature herself that incest is not the right way.

Offline flyawave

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Re: Incest
« Reply #51 on: October 09, 2010, 02:37:27 PM »
Incest causes DNA to go wonky. Evidence provided by Mother Nature herself that incest is not the right way.
QFT
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Offline Havoc10K

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Re: Incest
« Reply #52 on: October 09, 2010, 02:42:50 PM »
if there is no "fruit" on love I personally don't bother myself.

Offline Tiffanys

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Re: Incest
« Reply #53 on: October 09, 2010, 03:04:35 PM »
Incest causes DNA to go wonky. Evidence provided by Mother Nature herself that incest is not the right way.

Yes, well... mother nature also tells us that we should die following that logic, now doesn't it?

Well, to be honest it's more of a case of DNA being lazy. Our DNA doesn't care, it just has to pass itself down. It doesn't care if we live or die or what the next generation's like.

Fact of the matter is, as per an evolutionary standpoint, it's just easier for DNA to evolve to pass on itself with death than make the complex changes needed to stop aging. It does its job whether we die or not.

So, is that mother nature telling us death is the right way? No, no it's just telling us that it happened to occur that way because it's more efficient. It's harder for some creatures to pass on their genetic material, and thus they've evolved to have longer lives. And some, it's very easy and so they have very short lives. Of course, it's terribly more complicated than all that. If you're really interested in the subject you can check out this video. It's pretty easy to understand.

And you know, incest in itself isn't all bad, on the genetic front. We do pass down certain traits. As you know, many breeds of dogs are inbred, which results in certain features becoming more prominent. It's a method of evolving, really... each iteration will become stronger and we can focus on certain features. It has been at work for awhile now... as many of you may have heard, as a species we were once much smaller than we are now, and other things as well. Incest just speeds up the evolutionary process, so to speak. Bad results invariably happen, anyone that's bred dogs especially knows that. But sometimes you end up with something totally amazing, and you could base an entire new breed off of that. In nature, y'know, it would take thousands and thousands of year for this type of selection to occur, but we can speed up the evolutionary process ourselves. For the better, or perhaps, for the worse. But we speed it up nonetheless.

As for examples of areas where this occurred... The Pingelapese Islanders, actually.... they were founded by a couple thyphoon survivors and as a result about 5-10% of the population is color blind. Other examples.... Amish, Ashkenazi Jews and European royalty (and well, I seem to remember the entire population of Iceland being very degenerated genetically due to incest because they were very isolated).

See this article for some explanations. Basically, incest is bad now because recessive diseases are everywhere. But thousands or hundreds of thousands of years ago, it wouldn't have been a problem at all without them present.

Quote
Northern Europeans have a higher incidence of CF. The Japanese have a greater risk of getting meningococcal meningitis. Africans have a higher incidence of sickle cell anemia. Southeast Asians have a higher incidence of alpha-thalassemia.

If our original two people didn't have these diseases, then where would the disease genes come from?

Well, new mutations happen all the time. Most are harmless, a few are harmful, and a very few are beneficial. (For a beneficial one, think about the recent mutation that let's a quarter of the world's adults enjoy an ice cream cone.)

With lots of people over a long period of time, some bad mutations are bound to develop. For example, we see them happening today in a disease called neurofibromatosis (NF). About half of all new cases of NF are because of new mutations.

What we've discussed for genetic diseases is also true for other things like genetic traits. Our ancestors in Africa were most likely dark skinned with brown eyes. A group that reached Northern Europe developed mutations that gave blue eyes, red and blonde hair, and light skin.

These same mutations could have developed in Africa. In fact, they probably did but disappeared because people with fair skin may not have done as well there.

In Northern Europe, these mutations were actually beneficial (probably to get enough vitamin D from the sun). This meant that once the mutation popped up, these people did better and so eventually, most Northern Europeans ended up with light skin.

Oh and uh... regarding one of my earlier statements. I kinda took the easy route on that, in saying siblings of the same gender couldn't produce offspring together... Fact is, they technically could very soon... So could the LGBT community.

In conclusion... it's not so much that it's "bad" as that it's easier on a genetic level to not compensate for it since it's quite rare in modern society. However, if it became a very common occurrence over thousands of years, then well..... milk. Eventually things happen.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2010, 03:55:57 PM by Tiffanys »

Offline donald1

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Re: Incest
« Reply #54 on: October 09, 2010, 03:29:44 PM »
purebreeding does not work in all animals. dogs are an exception. if you try it with himans, bad things happen. the original genepool in humans was cut down to just about 10,000 people a long time ago. something happened that aaaaaalmost wiped us out. but from a few groups, our species survived hard times. nowadays, the human genome across the world only varies a few percent, like 1-3%. any geneticist should know that.

Offline flyawave

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Re: Incest
« Reply #55 on: October 09, 2010, 03:41:45 PM »
Incest causes DNA to go wonky. Evidence provided by Mother Nature herself that incest is not the right way.

Yes, well... mother nature also tells us that we should die following that logic, now doesn't it?

Well, to be honest it's more of a case of DNA being lazy. Our DNA doesn't care, it just has to pass itself down. It doesn't care if we live or die or what the next generation's like.

Fact of the matter is, as per an evolutionary standpoint, it's just easier for DNA to evolve to pass on itself with death than make the complex changes needed to stop aging. It does its job whether we die or not.

So, is that mother nature telling us death is the right way? No, no it's just telling us that it happened to occur that way because it's more efficient. It's harder for some creatures to pass on their genetic material, and thus they've evolved to have longer lives. And some, it's very easy and so they have very short lives. Of course, it's terribly more complicated than all that. If you're really interested in the subject you can check out this video. It's pretty easy to understand.

And you know, incest in itself isn't all bad, on the genetic front. We do pass down certain traits. As you know, many breeds of dogs are pure bred, which results in certain features becoming more prominent. It's a method of evolving, really... each iteration will become stronger and we can focus on certain features. It has been at work for awhile now... as many of you may have heard, as a species we were once much smaller than we are now, and other things as well. Incest just speeds up the evolutionary process, so to speak. Bad results invariably happen, anyone that's bred dogs especially knows that. But sometimes you end up with something totally amazing, and you could base an entire new breed off of that. In nature, y'know, it would take thousands and thousands of year for this type of selection to occur, but we can speed up the evolutionary process ourselves. For the better, or perhaps, for the worse. But we speed it up nonetheless.

As for examples of areas where this occurred... The Pingelapese Islanders, actually.... they were founded by a couple thyphoon survivors and as a result about 5-10% of the population is color blind. Other examples.... Amish, Ashkenazi Jews and European royalty (and well, I seem to remember the entire population of Iceland being very degenerated genetically due to incest because they were very isolated).

See this article for some explanations. Basically, incest is bad now because recessive diseases are everywhere. But thousands or hundreds of thousands of years ago, it wouldn't have been a problem at all without them present.

Quote
Northern Europeans have a higher incidence of CF. The Japanese have a greater risk of getting meningococcal meningitis. Africans have a higher incidence of sickle cell anemia. Southeast Asians have a higher incidence of alpha-thalassemia.

If our original two people didn't have these diseases, then where would the disease genes come from?

Well, new mutations happen all the time. Most are harmless, a few are harmful, and a very few are beneficial. (For a beneficial one, think about the recent mutation that let's a quarter of the world's adults enjoy an ice cream cone.)

With lots of people over a long period of time, some bad mutations are bound to develop. For example, we see them happening today in a disease called neurofibromatosis (NF). About half of all new cases of NF are because of new mutations.

What we've discussed for genetic diseases is also true for other things like genetic traits. Our ancestors in Africa were most likely dark skinned with brown eyes. A group that reached Northern Europe developed mutations that gave blue eyes, red and blonde hair, and light skin.

These same mutations could have developed in Africa. In fact, they probably did but disappeared because people with fair skin may not have done as well there.

In Northern Europe, these mutations were actually beneficial (probably to get enough vitamin D from the sun). This meant that once the mutation popped up, these people did better and so eventually, most Northern Europeans ended up with light skin.

Oh and uh... regarding one of my earlier statements. I kinda took the easy route on that, in saying siblings of the same gender couldn't produce offspring together... Fact is, they technically could very soon... So could the LGBT community.

In conclusion... it's not so much that it's "bad" as that it's easier on a genetic level to not compensate for it since it's quite rare in modern society. However, if it became a very common occurrence over thousands of years, then well..... milk. Eventually things happen.
well yeah, we should die

and regarding dog breeding, it has resulted in the most disgusting "evolution" in history (in my opinion) The poodle used to be a powerful and strong dog. due to humans breeding it a particular way it became (essentially) arthritic, weak and generally more prone to disease.

you sorta proved yourself wrong with the whole "European royal families not producing factor K, Pingalese Islanders being colour blind etc.
the only good thing from inbreeding humans was Africans developing sickle cells as a method of combating malaria.

Alongside this, Mother nature didn't want us to be gay, but we still try to find ways in which they can have children. (I know that the article is directed at increasing fertility, but it's not a great leap from there to gay couples with babies)
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Offline Tiffanys

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Re: Incest
« Reply #56 on: October 09, 2010, 03:43:54 PM »
purebreeding does not work in all animals. dogs are an exception. if you try it with himans, bad things happen. the original genepool in humans was cut down to just about 10,000 people a long time ago. something happened that aaaaaalmost wiped us out. but from a few groups, our species survived hard times. nowadays, the human genome across the world only varies a few percent, like 1-3%. any geneticist should know that.

It works in all animals. A purebred animal is one that was bred from only the same breed, it doesn't imply inbreeding. As for inbreeding, it may not necessarily work well in all animals, but it most certainly works.

Inbreeding dogs isn't exactly good for them either, just so you know. A great example of this off the top of my head are white tigers. Horrific mutations happen while trying to get the pretty white tigers everyone likes to see...... it's not a subspecies of tiger... it's a mutation. See this.

well yeah, we should die

Alongside this, Mother nature didn't want us to be gay, but we still try to find ways in which they can have children. (I know that the article is directed at increasing fertility, but it's not a great leap from there to gay couples with babies)

Well, you can die. How about that? As for me, I prefer to try to find ways not to.

Watch this video. Come out of it less ignorant on the subject, please.

Offline erious

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Re: Incest
« Reply #57 on: October 09, 2010, 03:45:59 PM »
I don't think there's a need for me to write anything more, let me just go a bit off topic and say one thing:
Tiffanys, your posts are a pleasure to read. Thank you for strengthening my faith in human reason, if just a little bit.

Offline Havoc10K

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Re: Incest
« Reply #58 on: October 09, 2010, 04:53:12 PM »
1- that video should be branded epic for a few reasons
-that dude talks damn fast, I can barely keep up with him :)
-his beard is epic !
-those examples he made up are epic :D

the vid is great and fun.
I don't think there's a need for me to write anything more, let me just go a bit off topic and say one thing:
Tiffanys, your posts are a pleasure to read. Thank you for strengthening my faith in human reason, if just a little bit.
+1

I also hope Tiff did read my PM and didn't just delete it, and that she accepted my point of view as at least acceptable, as far as incest goes I'm really only concerned about DNA degradation, other than that, mother nature tells us also to survive, so sometimes it isn't all that immoral to commit incest :P

i really hate some of the humanity's morals, they break those morals whenever they feel like :P mankind are really the most screwed up creatures in the whole universe :P

Offline fohfoh

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Re: Incest
« Reply #59 on: October 09, 2010, 04:53:42 PM »
I don't think there's a need for me to write anything more, let me just go a bit off topic and say one thing:
Tiffanys, your posts are a pleasure to read. Thank you for strengthening my faith in human reason, if just a little bit.

Concur. I may not fully agree. But at least it's not a wave of shit text.
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