Author Topic: Elder Scrolls V : Skyrim  (Read 54201 times)

Offline AceHigh

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Re: Elder Scrolls V : Skyrim
« Reply #340 on: December 09, 2011, 03:49:29 PM »
i'm sorry. i assumed the concept of "no magicka spent, no magicka to regenerate" was easy enough to comprehend. i was apparently wrong.

Well, I do spend a lot of magicka. There is the summoning of 2 dremoras, a dragonhide spell, sometimes some healing during combat and then various destruction spells. Your concept doesn't fit my playstyle, I thought that was easy to comprehend as well.
For one thing, Tiff is not on any level what I would call a typical American.  She's not what I would consider a typical person.  I don't know any other genius geneticist anime-fan martial artist marksman model-level beauties, do you?

Offline blubart

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Re: Elder Scrolls V : Skyrim
« Reply #341 on: December 09, 2011, 05:32:04 PM »
I am intrigued by this. I wonder if spamming spells, and then running away like a madman during assassination missions, is more fun than the damage multipliers you get for a nice and clean long-ranged stealth kill.. Also, does fortify destruction magic also increase the base damage of a spell or is it limited to only lowering the mana cost? If so, how hard is it to play on master difficulty? (solo, or with followers and thralls)
it works fine until around lvl25-30 at which point it begins to suck due to the fact that neither the destruction skill adds damage to your spells, nor is there an enchantment that adds to the damage of your spells but the opponents continue to gain health.
you are virtually indestructible in your heavy magic resist enchanted armor, constantly staggering your opponent though, so it's a matter of time until your opponent is dead.

the damage curve for a dedicated destruction mage looks a little like this:

0  20 40 60 80 character level
|  |  |  |  |
    _________
  /
 /
/


Well, I do spend a lot of magicka. There is the summoning of 2 dremoras, a dragonhide spell, sometimes some healing during combat and then various destruction spells. Your concept doesn't fit my playstyle, I thought that was easy to comprehend as well.
the word you were searching for is "magically scry", not "comprehend". if i'm talking about a dedicated destruction mage; dremoras, dragonhide or healing spells are obviously not the first things that come to my mind.
even in those cases magicka is a pretty worthless stat. especially once you have mastered conjuration and are running around with 2 permanent thralls you will question yourself why the heck you would need magicka for this (just to be able to gain more character levels i skilled conjuration too - enchanting some gear with conjuration cost reducers whenever you need to resummon your thrall (or astronach with lower skill levels) is a considerably more efficient approach than using actual magicka for it.)
alteration as a whole seems weak to me (why wear cloth to cast a spell that nets you 80% physical damage reduction if you can just wear heavy armor that stops even more damage, only constantly without casting anything? and lol@ebonflesh)
casting restoration spells is a valid argument. considering the rarity you actually get to use those even on master level as a cautious caster in heavy protective gear with considerable health i would argue that being able to cast 3-4 of those with your 100 base-magicka should be more than sufficient.

so while this might not be your "playstyle" it's the most efficient approach. were we come back to my premise (which i assume you were trying to argue against, and not just talking out of your butt) that
the oddest and most counterintuitive thing i noticed in skyrim up to now is that as a dedicated destruction mage it's more effective to put your levelup-statpoints into health than into magic.
i was never proposing that it was impossible to play a suboptimal destruction mage build based on magicka instead of health.
in my opinion it's a grave oversight that a magicka-less approach is even feasible. not to mention the horrible scaling of destruction magic that goes alongside it.
it's a fact that at 100 destruction (or any other magic school for that matter with the right perks) you have a 83% reduction on your spells manacost whether you want it or not. just by filling those last 17% (the arch-mage robe would nearly cover that alone!) with enchants on your armor you increase your mana pool to infinity - so it does not matter whether you have 100+infinity or 500+infinity magicka.

Offline lazarus626

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Re: Elder Scrolls V : Skyrim
« Reply #342 on: December 09, 2011, 06:21:49 PM »
it works fine until around lvl25-30 at which point it begins to suck due to the fact that neither the destruction skill adds damage to your spells, nor is there an enchantment that adds to the damage of your spells but the opponents continue to gain health.
you are virtually indestructible in your heavy magic resist enchanted armor, constantly staggering your opponent though, so it's a matter of time until your opponent is dead.

Yea. I was thinking that magic has been nerfed too much since we can no longer access spellcrafting. Back in Oblivion, having more magicka actually made more sense, unlike now. That's why I miss my custom spells from Oblivion.

On a sidenote: I also miss being able to use Bound Armor, since I keep wondering what a Bound Armor with the new cool effects in Skyrim would've looked like. (I hope It would've looked similar to the Tech Armor from Mass Effect 2, which looked cool hovering around your normal armor)

EDIT: It would've been cool too if you can infuse your bound gear with different elements. Which should change it's color based on the element you infuse it with.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 06:34:41 PM by lazarus626 »

Offline Havoc10K

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Re: Elder Scrolls V : Skyrim
« Reply #343 on: December 09, 2011, 06:33:08 PM »
It would appear all the fears that, although Skyrim looks awesome, is terribly bugged, unfinished and whatnot.
Modding tools will not be available until the first expansion I think, so that while installing first expansion you will gain access to all the missed stuff, unless modders somehow will still make their mods fixing the game long before Bethesda.

I will await the end of this race, and maybe Bethesda will finally start thinking :P

Use the cheat for all spells btw, make sure you use a new char or something so not to spoil anything.

It made me lol a bit though. At this point i highly doubt the game was tested at all in some beta run, and was just tested by the developers.

Offline SeventyX7

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Re: Elder Scrolls V : Skyrim
« Reply #344 on: December 09, 2011, 06:44:56 PM »
I think its ridiculous to expect developers to publish perfectly non buggy games anymore.  This isn't the age of 8-bit, programming (and on multiple consoles/PC builds) is incredibly complex. Even Nintendo's Skyward Sword has a gamebreaking bug in it.   

People will need more time to get into that mindset, though.

tl;dr =

Gamers are expecting way too much. We are paying 50-70 dollars for video games that are millions of times more complex than video games that went for 50-70 dollars back when they were "finished."

Offline AceHigh

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Re: Elder Scrolls V : Skyrim
« Reply #345 on: December 09, 2011, 07:37:23 PM »
alteration as a whole seems weak to me (why wear cloth to cast a spell that nets you 80% physical damage reduction if you can just wear heavy armor that stops even more damage, only constantly without casting anything? and lol@ebonflesh)

Because damage reduction is capped at 80% or 567 points. Having armour rating over that just literally has no effect.

Quote
so while this might not be your "playstyle" it's the most efficient approach.

"Efficient approach"? Are you playing an MMO? No seriously, by the time I max out most used skills on my character, I have already completed the main quest, became a grandmaster of all guilds and did pretty much all scripted quests. What will you do with your lvl 80 character? Do radiant quests over and over? By that point I stop playing or re-roll the character.

I disagree with your notion that this kind of game needs efficient approaches or powerleveling or anything else like that.
For one thing, Tiff is not on any level what I would call a typical American.  She's not what I would consider a typical person.  I don't know any other genius geneticist anime-fan martial artist marksman model-level beauties, do you?

Offline Muk666

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Re: Elder Scrolls V : Skyrim
« Reply #346 on: December 09, 2011, 07:51:18 PM »
I'm pretty sure the developers want to finish the games but the publishers got the money and they release it even if the game is finished or not, really shitty because it takes too long for the game to get an "acceptable" version.

Gamers expect a finished product and they dont really get it, if they are releasing an unfinished version (and they know its far from finished) they should not be allowed to charge full price.

Lets compare it to a TV. If a company sells a TV and its not working properly they would be forced to repair it and if it takes too long give them a new one or give the money back (works differently in every country =P). With digital media this will never happen because there is no laws or anything to force them to do shit because technically its still "working".

Skyrim has tons of issues and some can be gamebreaking. I had a bug with the main quest so I was unable to continue, checked some forums and there was alot of threads about it and several ways to fix it, easiest way was to add a few lines to an ini file. This was over 2 weeks after launch and the Community fixed the issue within days but no fix from Bethesda.

Lots of people also have problems with the game crashing to desktop after playing for like an hour, no official fix but you could download a mod that supposedly fixes it.

Small bugs and shit is fine on release but Skyrim has a shitload of crap and is nowhere near acceptable release for a PC game if you ask me. Lots of gamebraking shit that the community can fix in a number of ways but still nothing from Bethesda? Did you read the first patch notes ? Fixes a bug that would make a dead person appear during your wedding or some thing. lol yay! Focus on more important shit please

tl;dr =

Gamers dont expect too much these days, we get less and less because people dont say anything and keep supporting the publishers so we are basically screwed =P
Dont know what to put here

Offline SeventyX7

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Re: Elder Scrolls V : Skyrim
« Reply #347 on: December 09, 2011, 08:09:38 PM »
My point is that gamer's expectations have not changed with the increasing difficulty with making a "completed" product.  Making a non-glitchy PC game is pretty much impossible since the PC "platform" is more like many different platforms given how many different specs people have. 

Back when games couldn't be worked on more after release and when games were much easier to make "completed" it was unacceptable for them to be glitchy at release. 

With the increasing complexity and sophistication of the medium, you can't expect them to be able to perfect performance like they could with the simple games you grew up with.

Offline blubart

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Re: Elder Scrolls V : Skyrim
« Reply #348 on: December 09, 2011, 08:28:09 PM »
alteration as a whole seems weak to me (why wear cloth to cast a spell that nets you 80% physical damage reduction if you can just wear heavy armor that stops even more damage, only constantly without casting anything? and lol@ebonflesh)

Because damage reduction is capped at 80% or 567 points. Having armour rating over that just literally has no effect.
and? does that change the fact that wearing armor is better than recasting a spell (you only get after reaching 90 alteration) every 30 seconds?
the stopping more damage refers to the perks in the Armor Skills, which as far as i know still work on top of the armor based reduction - but that's more or less irrelevant - the fact is that you don't need magicka to reach adequate physical protection.

Quote
so while this might not be your "playstyle" it's the most efficient approach.

"Efficient approach"? Are you playing an MMO? No seriously, by the time I max out most used skills on my character, I have already completed the main quest, became a grandmaster of all guilds and did pretty much all scripted quests. What will you do with your lvl 80 character? Do radiant quests over and over? By that point I stop playing or re-roll the character.

I disagree with your notion that this kind of game needs efficient approaches or powerleveling or anything else like that.
i assume you are using firebolt instead of incinerate and only a novice robe because its color is prettier, right? because apparently you have no interest whatsoever in using the most efficient tool the game has to offer. i wonder why you don't invest your levelup stat points into stamina, considering even a mage should require/acquire considerable stamina running around all day...
what this supposedly has to do with being an MMO or even power leveling i don't know.
you seem to have nothing to say regarding my initial argument, so thanks for your input.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 08:35:42 PM by blubart »

Offline Havoc10K

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Re: Elder Scrolls V : Skyrim
« Reply #349 on: December 09, 2011, 10:23:37 PM »
My point is that gamer's expectations have not changed with the increasing difficulty with making a "completed" product.  Making a non-glitchy PC game is pretty much impossible since the PC "platform" is more like many different platforms given how many different specs people have. 

Back when games couldn't be worked on more after release and when games were much easier to make "completed" it was unacceptable for them to be glitchy at release. 

With the increasing complexity and sophistication of the medium, you can't expect them to be able to perfect performance like they could with the simple games you grew up with.
I don't expect a perfect game, but the amount of bugs found by the players in a matter of few days after release, and the fact that players fix Bethesda's mistakes is nothing new.
The amount of bugs is stunning, some of them are constantly repeating. The fact that Bethesda makes you a cheater just because you want to use the console to FIX a bug is the most retarded thing they ever did. They spent over 2 years removing every possible thing from the game that would make it more enjoyable.

During the last 2 days I spent more time trying to fix quests then actual playing.

And the reason for :
Quote
Gamers dont expect too much these days, we get less and less because people dont say anything and keep supporting the publishers so we are basically screwed =P
Is actually because developing companies rarely admit mistakes and lock threads and/or delete them on their own forums. Most of the posters that come to those forums and defend the game and companies are the people that get paid for doing that, moderators using normal user rights as posters. Even when you prove (or especially) an evident error that would have been eliminated should the game went through the proper testing the moderators lock/delete the thread as soon as possible.

Bethesda is known for releasing Beta versions of their games, and modders and players are charged to do free work and fix those games for them. PC/Console doesn't matter, the games for PC are being done for specific minimum requirements, and most of the time those requirements are fulfilled, if the game crashes down on minimum that means something is wrong with the game, or the minimum requirements have been written just to let more people to buy the game. Quake4 was such game as I tested it on minimum and slightly better hardware and I noticed that the minimum was not enough (barely worked, while the minimum should allow proper gameplay on lowest settings).

Fallout 3 had plenty of bugs, but people say New Vegas was a charm. Of course it was, same engine and same textures, only added a few more and those few ended up bugged and occasionally caused problems. Bethesda uses mods to fix their games since Morrowind. This works for them because they don't need to do anything, they just wait for someone else to fix things and then after a few months, when the majority or most of the most annoying bugs is fixed by players, they release a magical patch and magically fix things.

Enough of ranting for now.

Offline logos

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Re: Elder Scrolls V : Skyrim
« Reply #350 on: December 10, 2011, 12:44:08 AM »
it's a fact that at 100 destruction (or any other magic school for that matter with the right perks) you have a 83% reduction on your spells manacost whether you want it or not. just by filling those last 17% (the arch-mage robe would nearly cover that alone!) with enchants on your armor you increase your mana pool to infinity - so it does not matter whether you have 100+infinity or 500+infinity magicka.
are you sure you're playing the same game I am? I have 100 destruction (have every destruction perk), a ring that lowers destruction mana cost by 23%, master destruction robe (22% reduction) and Nakriin (another 20% destro reduction) with all that:

(gonna list fire spells since they're the lowest magicka cost)
Firebolt: lvl 25 spell, 4 magicka, dual cast ~10 (and lets face it, if you're playing pure destro mage then you hafta dual cast for the stagger affect (pretty much every other cast) does ~100 dmg dual cast
Fireball: lvl 50 spell 13 magicka, dual cast ~30, ~150 aoe dmg dual cast
and just for comparisons sake:
Flames: lvl 0 spell, 1 magicka per second...deals 12 dmg, dual cast ~2mp per second, ~25 dmg per second dual cast, and as far as I know doesnt stagger foes, which means you hafta kite like crazy or take the hits, imo is completely useless once you get a lvl 25 spell.

so those are the 2 cheapest most effective ways to kill people, so you can at most shoot a bad guy like 10-15 times, depending on your magicka regen rate...that's enough to kill the lower ranked bad guys, but killing a drough scourge or something like that is gonna be a lot of kiting and spamming your lvl 0 fire spell that costs 1 mana and does pathetic damage.

Of course thats just the effective route, if you actually wanna use some cool spells like master/expert ones, then you're talkin about a much larger amount of magicka being spent per second...aka like 2 spells before your 100 Magicka is depleted


Offline lazarus626

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Re: Elder Scrolls V : Skyrim
« Reply #351 on: December 10, 2011, 02:13:36 AM »
I don't expect a perfect game, but the amount of bugs found by the players in a matter of few days after release, and the fact that players fix Bethesda's mistakes is nothing new.
The amount of bugs is stunning, some of them are constantly repeating. The fact that Bethesda makes you a cheater just because you want to use the console to FIX a bug is the most retarded thing they ever did. They spent over 2 years removing every possible thing from the game that would make it more enjoyable.

IIRC, achievements doesn't unlock anything cool for this game, so there's not much point aiming for it in the first place.
(unless I'm mistaken) It's just extra baggage..

Is actually because developing companies rarely admit mistakes and lock threads and/or delete them on their own forums. Most of the posters that come to those forums and defend the game and companies are the people that get paid for doing that, moderators using normal user rights as posters. Even when you prove (or especially) an evident error that would have been eliminated should the game went through the proper testing the moderators lock/delete the thread as soon as possible.

Kinda reminds me of the government and their spindoctors and paid hacks who play as COINTELPRO, trolling forums and trying desperately hard to maintain the status quo of the powers that be.. lol. But I suppose the same thing can be said about any organization big enough to think they're too big to fail.

Bethesda is known for releasing Beta versions of their games, and modders and players are charged to do free work and fix those games for them. PC/Console doesn't matter, the games for PC are being done for specific minimum requirements, and most of the time those requirements are fulfilled, if the game crashes down on minimum that means something is wrong with the game, or the minimum requirements have been written just to let more people to buy the game. Quake4 was such game as I tested it on minimum and slightly better hardware and I noticed that the minimum was not enough (barely worked, while the minimum should allow proper gameplay on lowest settings).

Yea, it feels like that the PC gamers are the ones beta testing and then fixing stuff for them. It doesn't really matter if it's developed for console or PC (although you're pretty much screwed if you're one of those console gamers. lol) But I think that most developers for PC games tend to skirt the edges of the current tech, trying to force you to upgrade your system hardware just to play their game properly. (another example for this was Witcher 2)

PC game devs could easily make a decent game by sticking to minimum requirements (as in most cases with 2d PC games). But the devs for 3d games from big companies try too damn hard to make their game "ground breaking",  'coz most critics tend to bitch about it when the new graphics doesn't push the limits of their brand new vid cards and make their eyes bleed with awesomeness..

It's basically the age old dilemma between form and function. Striking up a balance is hard when you're trying to be 'ground breaking', since it also leaves the connotation of being experimental.. So yea, just think of yourselves as beta testers. Although developers really should keep in touch with modding communities and give them as much tech support as possible. And maybe give them discounts and freebies for all the hard work that they do, instead of hiring more spindoctors and paid hacks just to hide the issue under the bloody rug.. (hint: it ain't working)

(gonna list fire spells since they're the lowest magicka cost)
Firebolt: lvl 25 spell, 4 magicka, dual cast ~10 (and lets face it, if you're playing pure destro mage then you hafta dual cast for the stagger affect (pretty much every other cast) does ~100 dmg dual cast
Fireball: lvl 50 spell 13 magicka, dual cast ~30, ~150 aoe dmg dual cast
and just for comparisons sake:
Flames: lvl 0 spell, 1 magicka per second...deals 12 dmg, dual cast ~2mp per second, ~25 dmg per second dual cast, and as far as I know doesnt stagger foes, which means you hafta kite like crazy or take the hits, imo is completely useless once you get a lvl 25 spell.

So have destro mages been nerfed THAT much in Skyrim? I remember them being like the Lords of Oblivion, nuking elemental hybrid spells out of their asses back in Cyrodiil.

Offline AceHigh

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Re: Elder Scrolls V : Skyrim
« Reply #352 on: December 10, 2011, 02:17:36 AM »
So have destro mages been nerfed THAT much in Skyrim? I remember them being like the Lords of Oblivion, nuking elemental hybrid spells out of their asses back in Cyrodiil.

Like level 1 mage casting "drain 100 health for 1 second! custom spells which insta kill pretty much all mobs at that level?  ;D
For one thing, Tiff is not on any level what I would call a typical American.  She's not what I would consider a typical person.  I don't know any other genius geneticist anime-fan martial artist marksman model-level beauties, do you?

Offline lazarus626

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Re: Elder Scrolls V : Skyrim
« Reply #353 on: December 10, 2011, 02:33:17 AM »
So have destro mages been nerfed THAT much in Skyrim? I remember them being like the Lords of Oblivion, nuking elemental hybrid spells out of their asses back in Cyrodiil.

Like level 1 mage casting "drain 100 health for 1 second! custom spells which insta kill pretty much all mobs at that level?  ;D

Yea, but they should've balanced the spellcrafting mechanics instead of just removing it completely. Custom spells and equipments are like your personal signature and helps define your character and fully personalize your playstyle.

edit: they should revamp spell damage (and bound weapon damage) to properly scale with your skill level instead of just relying on perks.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 02:35:20 AM by lazarus626 »

Online Tiffanys

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Re: Elder Scrolls V : Skyrim
« Reply #354 on: December 10, 2011, 04:20:34 AM »
nor is there an enchantment that adds to the damage of your spells

Ah but there is though... if you cheat. Try typing this in console:

playerenchantobject 877ca 3eb26
(you can do two enchants... it's item baseid, enchant, enchant)

26 = desro spells (enchant level% stronger)
25 = conjuration last longer
27 = illusion stronger
28 restoration stronger
24 alteration longer
23 haggle is % easier
22 harder tod etect
21 lockpicking
19 1 handed
18 potions % stronger

Here's a nice page for reference/ease of use: http://skyrim.mmo-game.eu/enchanting-items-console/

Here's an example just to prove it works:


Here's a more extreme example (player.modav enchanting 485 first - from base 15, that is):


I was wrong about the magicka though. I had no idea it actually reduced the base cost of spells like that.

Offline SeventyX7

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Re: Elder Scrolls V : Skyrim
« Reply #355 on: December 10, 2011, 04:24:47 AM »
So that means...Bethesda programmed scaling for magic dmg into the game...but decided not to allow it later?

Seems kind of silly considering how dmg drops off late game according to blu.

Online Tiffanys

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Re: Elder Scrolls V : Skyrim
« Reply #356 on: December 10, 2011, 04:29:11 AM »
There's also an uncapper like this: http://skyrimnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=1175

But I dunno if increasing destruction beyond 100 would increase damage? I could test I guess...

edit: Nope, doesn't seem to increase damage by leveling it up.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 04:30:47 AM by Tiffanys »

Offline lazarus626

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Re: Elder Scrolls V : Skyrim
« Reply #357 on: December 10, 2011, 05:33:47 AM »
edit: Nope, doesn't seem to increase damage by leveling it up.

Does this mean that snipers are the new elite in Skyrim?
Sweet! Me and my army of sniper thralls are happy to hear that..  ;D

Online froody1911

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Re: Elder Scrolls V : Skyrim
« Reply #358 on: December 10, 2011, 06:40:43 AM »
Does this mean that snipers are the new elite in Skyrim?
Sweet! Me and my army of sniper thralls are happy to hear that..  ;D

Snipers have been the most powerful characters in terms of single-hit damage in oblivion as well. Dual-wielding 1h weapons is quite close, thanks to that special power attack (though that's arguably 5 hits, not 1).

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Online Tiffanys

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Re: Elder Scrolls V : Skyrim
« Reply #359 on: December 10, 2011, 09:00:29 AM »
Dual wield + Elemental Fury is the most overpowered. Sneak assassins are probably next, with shadow warrior. You can sneak during battle to turn invisible right before you attack and get the full damage bonus for a sneak attack. So, 30x the damage.