Discussion Forums > Gaming
Dragon Age II
Fool010:
--- Quote from: xfreidax on February 24, 2011, 03:27:50 PM ---Sometimes the game plays you.
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Like in Soviet Russia ? ;D
Just to be clear, I'm perfectly aware real RP is impossible in a video game, and I damn know it wouldn't sell if it were possible. I'm just asking to cut down on the approximative RPG label use. Real RPG would per example allow you to create your own skill trees -while preventing you from getting overpowered- instead of forcing you to comply to set rules.
I do not consider video games to be RPGs, but rather what I call SPGs -Story Playing Games- with varying degrees of flexibility. I have no issues with that, as long as the gameplay is compelling enough. Adventure game fits quite well, but is rather associated with the type of games Lucas Arts created (Monkey Island et al.)
The main issue with RP is that it requires too much player investment, that's why 'pure' RP is too demanding. It gets downgraded in order to make it more accessible and therefore marketable.
SeventyX7:
--- Quote from: Fool010 on February 24, 2011, 03:15:37 PM ---
--- Quote from: SeventyX7 on February 24, 2011, 03:03:41 PM ---you shouldn't be complaining about mainstream titles not carrying anything like it.
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What does it take to get into your thick skull that voicing criticism and complaining aren't the same thing ?
Could you please read what I'm writing instead of pulling assumptations about what I'm thinking. I've been pretty straightforward in my phrasing, so do me a favour and don't try to bend the meaning to get it convenient for you.
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>>
Voicing criticism inherently entails complaints, but not vice versa.
--- Quote from: Fool010 on February 24, 2011, 03:15:37 PM ---
--- Quote from: SeventyX7 on February 24, 2011, 03:03:41 PM ---What are you saying if you're saying that a game has rpg mechanics? That is plays just like an rpg, but it isn't one? What exactly does that mean?
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Check Borderlands, has RPG mechanics but isn't one.
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How about Fallout 3? What would you classify that as. The only difference between Fallout 3 and Borderlands I can see would be the stronger emphasis on story. In other words, the difference between the two is just more rpg mechanics than another.
I guess that's my point, how can you define what an rpg is if not by it having "rpg mechanics."
I'd agree Borderlands isn't an rpg, though, it's more of an fps.
--- Quote from: xfreidax on February 24, 2011, 03:27:50 PM ---
--- Quote from: SeventyX7 on February 24, 2011, 01:26:11 PM ---I think there's two big misconceptions going on here that...
rpg = dnd style game (It has to have turns, you have to have an infinite amount of choices at any given point, the game must change significantly for every little decision you make, etc.)
rpg =/= adventure game (I call bullshit, if you're not on an adventure in an rpg, what the fuck are you doing?)
Furthermore, any comparison to NWN I'm just going to flat-out ignore, because NWN IS dnd. It's a cheap way of getting dnd complaints hurled at rpgs.
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RPG vs Adventure game. The two genres are pretty similar I agree but there is a key difference.
In an adventure game, you slip into the role of a well defined persona and then proceed to play out his/her adventure.
In a rpg, you define the persona you want to play and then proceed to play out an adventure based on how the character you created would react.
That's a pretty big difference right there.
No doubt there's no escaping scripted game play in crpg's because there's a limit to how open ended an adventure can be. We are limited by technology here. Where as in actual role playing, the only limits should be the lore and your imagination, not a dialogue wheel with three canned response that correspond to good, neutral, evil.
I think the key complaint is the degree to which modern rpg's run "on rails". To the point they are actually closer to an adventure game than anything. Where choices are largely cosmetic and make virtually no difference. There are only that many ways a game can play out. Sometimes the game plays you.
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I think what you're describing here is more the difference between a western rpg and a japanese rpg. According to your criteria, virtually every game made by Square Enix has not been an rpg, it's been an adventure game.
If someone were to say that they loved Final Fantasy 6, you wouldn't ask them "Oh, so you like adventure games, huh?" You'd know they probably play a lot of rpgs.
Take-away point - you can still roleplay as a well defined persona. That's one of the big differences that separates Japanese rpgs from western ones.
xfreidax:
Well that's why Japanese rpg's are called jrpg's because they have a very different interpretation of what role playing means. They didn't come from a background of the pen and paper games after all.
There are computer rpg's that come close to actual pen and paper rpg's. They are called mmorpgs. And I think you're mistaken that there is no market for games that are heavy on the RP. Most mmo's have RP servers that host thriving RP communities where people......role play. =P
I'll give you another example. Japanese, Korean or Chinese mmorpg's, in their native countries usually don't have RP servers because that style of playing is completely alien to them. But when these same games get ported to markets with a tradition of playing pen and paper rpg's, role playing servers are created.
A key aspect of role playing games is character growth. Whether it be levels or skills or gear or alignment or faction or whatever.... so yes jrpg's are rpg's as well. No arguments there.
The way I see it though, a good rpg should have a well defined world and lore that gives a player the choices to play a character any way he wants within the limits of technology. The game systems therefore need to be fairly open and complex to accommodate our imagination. The less choices you get in terms of not just how you interact with the world but in the way of classes, races, equipment/gear etc.....the closer it gets to becoming just an adventure game with certain rpg mechanics.
AceHigh:
--- Quote from: Tiffanys on February 24, 2011, 12:17:07 PM ---
--- Quote from: AceHigh on February 24, 2011, 10:05:10 AM ---your starting race is a human, a dwarf or a motherfucking elf! Could they be any more cliché?
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Well, wtf do you want it to be?
Besides, it's not like you just get that. There's Human Noble/Human Mage, Dalish Elf/City Elf/Mage Elf, Dwarf Noble/Dwarf Commoner.
What, that not good enough for you..? ::)
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Congratulations for missing my point exactly. No it's not good enough for me. Not because there are 3 races to play, hell I am fine if there was only one playable race, my issue is that it's those three races banded together as an overused pile of shit scrapped from all fantasy settings out there.
If you are content with developers making obvious clones upon clones of games, then fine, I am happy you are content with that. However I am not. That is my personal opinion (read: opinion, not a fact) and thus I can't see how it is even debatable.
--- Quote ---There are computer rpg's that come close to actual pen and paper rpg's. They are called mmorpgs. And I think you're mistaken that there is no market for games that are heavy on the RP. Most mmo's have RP servers that host thriving RP communities where people......role play. =P
I'll give you another example. Japanese, Korean or Chinese mmorpg's, in their native countries usually don't have RP servers because that style of playing is completely alien to them. But when these same games get ported to markets with a tradition of playing pen and paper rpg's, role playing servers are created.
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I agree with you, real RP is made by the players themselves, not developers and thus RP possibilities are big in MMORPG genre. The only improvement that developers can do is to give better tools for the players to roleplay.
SeventyX7:
I guess that's where you and I diverge on opinion. I'm the type of person who wants a strong, thought-provoking or emotion-provoking story. The only way this is reliably achieved is through more constrictions on what you can actually do.
In other words, I prefer to get invested in the story, while you guys prefer to get invested in your individual characters.
Perhaps that's what characterizes all rpgs, some sort of investment into the world of the game.
I've never really felt "invested" into non-rpgs in the same way.
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