Dragon Age II

[Fool010]

Those are all elements of an rpg.

The important words is elements, those parts alone are not enough to qualify a game as a RPG

Also, there's no such thing as a video game that isn't pre-scripted.  Complaining about that is nonsense.

I'm not complaining, I'm merely pointing at the fact that scripting prevents real RP from taking place. You're not playing a role, you're playing a story. That's definitely not the same thing, unless you downgrade your conception of RP a lot.

skill tree + leveling + a couple of (pre-scripted) storyline choices = rpg mechanics

Fixed the fix

[HiddenJumper]

Dragon age was kind of a failure in the RPG department. No matter what you did it didn't affect the story at all. Just switched a few persons here and there and the result was exactly the same.

Actually that's not entirely true. I've played through the original base game Dragon Age and the choices do affect the outcome of the story. There are actually different endings, but I don't know how many of them. The expansion, from what I can tell, didn't have different endings, but I haven't finished it yet.

I think Dragon Age II comes down to personal perference. As someone pointed out, some people may not like the D&D style. Unfortunately for me, I've never played D&D, so the fact they didn't really apply that type of gameplay mechanics is good. Keeping things simple is what I want.

In some ways its hard to make a completely open game. The major problem with it is trying to plug every hole and every route decision with another route. Each decision made in a game could open up a new route which leads to another decision which leads to another fork in the road, etc etc etc. The cycle never ends. It's like the song that never ends. The song itself has nothing to guide it to a basic conclusion so its stuck going around in circles. So take out the story guidance/pre-scripts from the game and the story keeps going. Sure that sounds like a great thing, but the sheer size of the game alone, the game company who attempts this will be working on the game forever. It'll never get out of the production stages.

[SeventyX7]

What are you saying if you're saying that a game has rpg mechanics?  That is plays just like an rpg, but it isn't one?  What exactly does that mean?

Also, RP =/=rpg.  Yes, the term rpg originally came from RP, rpgs were inspired by RP, but there's a reason why when you think of the concepts, "RP" and "rpg" two completely different things come to mind.  They've diverged in meaning, and trying to equivocate them is why you're getting mad not finding and RP in your rpg.

When someone says, "Hey, let's go RP" you don't think they mean they just got NVN and want to play that with you, just as when someone says, "Let's play an rpg" you don't think they want to crack out the DnD character sheets.

If what you're saying is there are no games with RP in them, I'd say that's a valid complaint, but I'd respond by saying that the market for such a game is extremely small and that you shouldn't be complaining about mainstream titles not carrying anything like it.  

[Fool010]

you shouldn't be complaining about mainstream titles not carrying anything like it.  

What does it take to get into your thick skull that voicing criticism and complaining aren't the same thing ?

Could you please read what I'm writing instead of pulling assumptations about what I'm thinking. I've been pretty straightforward in my phrasing, so do me a favour and don't try to bend the meaning to get it convenient for you.

What are you saying if you're saying that a game has rpg mechanics?  That is plays just like an rpg, but it isn't one?  What exactly does that mean?

Check Borderlands, has RPG mechanics but isn't one.

Unless you can me give another transcription, the acronym still means Role Playing Game. The fact the label is slapped on stuff that only partly falls under it is irrelevant. You're trying to rationalize an improper word use.

Plays like a RPG ? No. Borrows gameplay elements, yes.

I do not condone the 'if we can't have real RPGs, let's call downgraded versions RPG' idea.

[xfreidax]

I think there's two big misconceptions going on here that...

rpg = dnd style game (It has to have turns, you have to have an infinite amount of choices at any given point, the game must change significantly for every little decision you make, etc.)
rpg =/= adventure game (I call bullshit, if you're not on an adventure in an rpg, what the fuck are you doing?)

Furthermore, any comparison to NWN I'm just going to flat-out ignore, because NWN IS dnd.  It's a cheap way of getting dnd complaints hurled at rpgs.

RPG vs Adventure game. The two genres are pretty similar I agree but there is a key difference.

In an adventure game, you slip into the role of a well defined persona and then proceed to play out his/her adventure.

In a rpg, you define the persona you want to play and then proceed to play out an adventure based on how the character you created would react.

That's a pretty big difference right there.

No doubt there's no escaping scripted game play in crpg's because there's a limit to how open ended an adventure can be. We are limited by technology here. Where as in actual role playing, the only limits should be the lore and your imagination, not a dialogue wheel with three canned response that correspond to good, neutral, evil.

I think the key complaint is the degree to which modern rpg's run "on rails". To the point they are actually closer to an adventure game than anything. Where choices are largely cosmetic and make virtually no difference. There are only that many ways a game can play out. Sometimes the game plays you.

[Fool010]

Sometimes the game plays you.

Like in Soviet Russia ?  

Just to be clear, I'm perfectly aware real RP is impossible in a video game, and I damn know it wouldn't sell if it were possible. I'm just asking to cut down on the approximative RPG label use. Real RPG would per example allow you to create your own skill trees -while preventing you from getting overpowered- instead of forcing you to comply to set rules.

I do not consider video games to be RPGs, but rather what I call SPGs -Story Playing Games- with varying degrees of flexibility. I have no issues with that, as long as the gameplay is compelling enough. Adventure game fits quite well, but is rather associated with the type of games Lucas Arts created (Monkey Island et al.)

The main issue with RP is that it requires too much player investment, that's why 'pure' RP is too demanding. It gets downgraded in order to make it more accessible and therefore marketable.

[SeventyX7]

you shouldn't be complaining about mainstream titles not carrying anything like it.  

What does it take to get into your thick skull that voicing criticism and complaining aren't the same thing ?

Could you please read what I'm writing instead of pulling assumptations about what I'm thinking. I've been pretty straightforward in my phrasing, so do me a favour and don't try to bend the meaning to get it convenient for you.

>>

Voicing criticism inherently entails complaints, but not vice versa.  

What are you saying if you're saying that a game has rpg mechanics?  That is plays just like an rpg, but it isn't one?  What exactly does that mean?

Check Borderlands, has RPG mechanics but isn't one.

How about Fallout 3?  What would you classify that as.  The only difference between Fallout 3 and Borderlands I can see would be the stronger emphasis on story.  In other words, the difference between the two is just more rpg mechanics than another.

I guess that's my point, how can you define what an rpg is if not by it having "rpg mechanics."

I'd agree Borderlands isn't an rpg, though, it's more of an fps.

I think there's two big misconceptions going on here that...

rpg = dnd style game (It has to have turns, you have to have an infinite amount of choices at any given point, the game must change significantly for every little decision you make, etc.)
rpg =/= adventure game (I call bullshit, if you're not on an adventure in an rpg, what the fuck are you doing?)

Furthermore, any comparison to NWN I'm just going to flat-out ignore, because NWN IS dnd.  It's a cheap way of getting dnd complaints hurled at rpgs.

RPG vs Adventure game. The two genres are pretty similar I agree but there is a key difference.

In an adventure game, you slip into the role of a well defined persona and then proceed to play out his/her adventure.

In a rpg, you define the persona you want to play and then proceed to play out an adventure based on how the character you created would react.

That's a pretty big difference right there.

No doubt there's no escaping scripted game play in crpg's because there's a limit to how open ended an adventure can be. We are limited by technology here. Where as in actual role playing, the only limits should be the lore and your imagination, not a dialogue wheel with three canned response that correspond to good, neutral, evil.

I think the key complaint is the degree to which modern rpg's run "on rails". To the point they are actually closer to an adventure game than anything. Where choices are largely cosmetic and make virtually no difference. There are only that many ways a game can play out. Sometimes the game plays you.

I think what you're describing here is more the difference between a western rpg and a japanese rpg.  According to your criteria, virtually every game made by Square Enix has not been an rpg, it's been an adventure game.

If someone were to say that they loved Final Fantasy 6, you wouldn't ask them "Oh, so you like adventure games, huh?"  You'd know they probably play a lot of rpgs.

Take-away point - you can still roleplay as a well defined persona.  That's one of the big differences that separates Japanese rpgs from western ones.

[xfreidax]

Well that's why Japanese rpg's are called jrpg's because they have a very different interpretation of what role playing means. They didn't come from a background of the pen and paper games after all.

There are computer rpg's that come close to actual pen and paper rpg's. They are called mmorpgs. And I think you're mistaken that there is no market for games that are heavy on the RP. Most mmo's have RP servers that host thriving RP communities where people......role play. =P

I'll give you another example. Japanese, Korean or Chinese mmorpg's, in their native countries usually don't have RP servers because that style of playing is completely alien to them. But when these same games get ported to markets with a tradition of playing pen and paper rpg's, role playing servers are created.

A key aspect of role playing games is character growth. Whether it be levels or skills or gear or alignment or faction or whatever.... so yes jrpg's are rpg's as well. No arguments there.

The way I see it though, a good rpg should have a well defined world and lore that gives a player the choices to play a character any way he wants within the limits of technology. The game systems therefore need to be fairly open and complex to accommodate our imagination. The less choices you get in terms of not just how you interact with the world but in the way of classes, races, equipment/gear etc.....the closer it gets to becoming just an adventure game with certain rpg mechanics.

[AceHigh]

your starting race is a human, a dwarf or a motherfucking elf! Could they be any more cliché?

Well, wtf do you want it to be?

Besides, it's not like you just get that. There's Human Noble/Human Mage, Dalish Elf/City Elf/Mage Elf, Dwarf Noble/Dwarf Commoner.

What, that not good enough for you..? 

Congratulations for missing my point exactly. No it's not good enough for me. Not because there are 3 races to play, hell I am fine if there was only one playable race, my issue is that it's those three races banded together as an overused pile of shit scrapped from all fantasy settings out there.

If you are content with developers making obvious clones upon clones of games, then fine, I am happy you are content with that. However I am not. That is my personal opinion (read: opinion, not a fact) and thus I can't see how it is even debatable.

There are computer rpg's that come close to actual pen and paper rpg's. They are called mmorpgs. And I think you're mistaken that there is no market for games that are heavy on the RP. Most mmo's have RP servers that host thriving RP communities where people......role play. =P

I'll give you another example. Japanese, Korean or Chinese mmorpg's, in their native countries usually don't have RP servers because that style of playing is completely alien to them. But when these same games get ported to markets with a tradition of playing pen and paper rpg's, role playing servers are created.

I agree with you, real RP is made by the players themselves, not developers and thus RP possibilities are big in MMORPG genre. The only improvement that developers can do is to give better tools for the players to roleplay.

[SeventyX7]

I guess that's where you and I diverge on opinion.  I'm the type of person who wants a strong, thought-provoking or emotion-provoking story.  The only way this is reliably achieved is through more constrictions on what you can actually do.

In other words, I prefer to get invested in the story, while you guys prefer to get invested in your individual characters.

Perhaps that's what characterizes all rpgs, some sort of investment into the world of the game.

I've never really felt "invested" into non-rpgs in the same way.

[HiddenJumper]

I guess that's where you and I diverge on opinion.  I'm the type of person who wants a strong, thought-provoking or emotion-provoking story.  The only way this is reliably achieved is through more constrictions on what you can actually do.

This brings me back to the initial reason for the thread. Discussion about Dragon Age II and its current demo (and eventual full game when its released).

From the demo, is it a worthwhile prologue? Does it intrigue anyone to actually want to play the game, whether you get it from legal sources or not? Does the game look like it'll provide enough excitement to you as a player?

Of course demoes can only say so much, but with the actual game due to be released in less than 2 weeks, it gives us a good look into what we can expect.

[Havoc10K]

Still DLing, from the concept art i was expecting something better so far from your stories it sems like BioWare decided to skint on budget this time for what ever reason, possibly because of Mass Effect 3 in the works, but I think they should have spent more time considering what was going on on the forums for DA2 suggestions.

I'm also hoping that the Demo isn't even a part of a complete progress, I had played a few games in the past where the stuff in Demo was bad, but the final product exceeded my expectations.

[AceHigh]

If they repeat the same as Dragonage 1, then prologue is the only intriguing thing. However I do not know that. Maybe they will learn from past mistakes, most likely the won't though.

At least that is my suspicion.

[Havoc10K]

true that the prologue in the first game was very interesting, the only thing more interesting was chatter between Morrigan and the knight boy, whatever his name was, can't remember, but I do remember how stupid he was

"you're some kind of sneaking...witch... thief...you are!"

I was like, OMFG that is the best line in the entire game XD

those two were meant for each other

[SeventyX7]

When I heard about the "witty remark" option they added, my first thought was that they put that in the game because Alistar wouldn't be returning.  Every single line of his from the first game was just golden.  I didn't even really need him in my party, I didn't like shield knight, but I kept him because of his dialogue.

Same thing for Morrigan.

If Dragon Age 2 can promise me interesting companions again, that will be all I need. 

[Scudworth]

I like swords!

[Havoc10K]

Alistar, that was the name of the idiot

and yeah those two were having a blast in my party, the biggest problem right now is that I hope the sarcasm and funny talk will be back indeed

[JoonasTo]

I preferred it most when the old mage was getting hit on by the assassin and the dwarf. Also, the dwarf hitting on my female PC was hilarious. 

[Sosseres]

What about a game such as X3? It creates a world limited by what the technology in that setting allows. The only other limitation being on the family side. Is that an RPG?

[AceHigh]

What about a game such as X3? It creates a world limited by what the technology in that setting allows. The only other limitation being on the family side. Is that an RPG?

You mean it's only limited by your own skill to script the AI commands? 

I think I will start playing X3TC again. That sandbox game really allows you to take whatever path you wish and the universe is big enough to make thousands of scenarios in that dynamic world. That game really has a lot of RP element.