Author Topic: How would YOU have ended Lord of the Rings?  (Read 5801 times)

Offline Ixarku

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Re: How would YOU have ended Lord of the Rings?
« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2011, 10:18:02 PM »
You're joking, right? From a purely technical standpoint HPL is possibly one of the greatest writers ever. The pacing of the stories is pretty much perfect, with constantly mounting tension until the climax at the end. He drops enough hints to give the reader an idea of what's going on, in fact the revelation in his stories often comes as a confirmation, but this doesn't diminish its effect on the reader, to the contrary, it enhances it. Despite the fact that he writes about things that often derive their horror from being contrary to the natural laws of the universe there's never anything resembling an ass-pull.
His understanding of rhythm and intonation was excellent, certainly, he's often long-winded in his descriptions, but the language flows from one sentence to the next. Never does one receive the impression of a shopping list where ordered items are ticked off after having been brought to the reader's attention. Try reading his stories as though you were speaking them out loud with no music or chatter in the background, and you may see what I mean.
If you've ever read some of the letters he wrote you'll notice that they're better formulated than much of what passes for literature, and he wrote those in one go. When crafting a story he kept writing and rewriting until he was satisifed, polishing the language, timing when a new bit of information would be revealed to the reader. No, to say Lovecraft's writing technique is horrible only goes to show you haven't studied the matter which you expound.

Um, go to hell?  Actually I studied Lovecraft’s writing a bit although it was years ago, and I’ve read quite a lot of it.  You’re either missing my point or deliberately ignoring it.  Lovecraft is often guilty of reporting the action rather than describing it.  At times, parts of his stories read like newspaper articles.  He’s also very fond of describing things in abstract terms rather than concretely.  He throws around a lot of meaningless adjectives like ‘horrible’ and ‘eldritch’ and ‘cthonic’.  His prose tends towards the verbose and feels overwritten at times.  His characters are largely two dimensional.  As a whole, his writing tends to feel amateurish.  I would even argue that his pacing is uneven at times.

Does any of this mean that his stories weren’t enjoyable?  No.  Personally, I love his stories and the rather unique feel that they have.  How Lovecraft wrote works as whole.  He conveys exactly the impression he wants to convey, but he does so by doing a lot of no-no’s in creative writing.  From a purely technical standpoint, his writing is flawed, even if he does so deliberately.  Although some critics have labeled him an amateur, I personally think he demonstrates a solid understanding of technique – he deliberately breaks the rules to achieve the effect he seeks.

I’m making essentially the same argument for Lovecraft as for Tolkien.  The works of both authors had their flaws, deliberate or otherwise, which is something that fanboys are often all too quick to dismiss.  I enjoy the work of both authors, but that doesn’t mean that I think they’re perfect or that I won't look at them from a critical point of view.
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Online Tiffanys

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Re: How would YOU have ended Lord of the Rings?
« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2011, 10:35:07 PM »
The hobbits really did seem gay, huh...

Offline Ixarku

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Re: How would YOU have ended Lord of the Rings?
« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2011, 11:14:54 PM »
The hobbits really did seem gay, huh...

Don't go applying your human-o-centric heterosexual boundaries to something as pure as one hobbit's love for another hobbit!  Their love is transcendental, I tells ya!
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Offline fohfoh

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Re: How would YOU have ended Lord of the Rings?
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2011, 01:45:18 AM »
The hobbits really did seem gay, huh...

Teh gay of the six-tay ain't the same as teh gay of today.
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Offline datora

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Re: How would YOU have ended Lord of the Rings?
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2011, 02:16:24 AM »
.
It's possible that LotR is responsible for the creation of Rule 34.  Just sayin' ...

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Offline froody1911

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Re: How would YOU have ended Lord of the Rings?
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2011, 09:27:39 AM »
.
It's possible that LotR is responsible for the creation of Rule 34.  Just sayin' ...

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Offline Fool010

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Re: How would YOU have ended Lord of the Rings?
« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2011, 10:26:07 AM »
I enjoy the work of both authors, but that doesn’t mean that I think they’re perfect or that I won't look at them from a critical point of view.

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Offline Ixarku

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Re: How would YOU have ended Lord of the Rings?
« Reply #47 on: March 04, 2011, 10:31:01 AM »
I fucking KNEW it ...

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"Entwives" indeed.  Now we know what Treebeard was really after.
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Offline undetz

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Re: How would YOU have ended Lord of the Rings?
« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2011, 03:07:26 PM »
Does any of this mean that his stories weren’t enjoyable?  No.  Personally, I love his stories and the rather unique feel that they have.  How Lovecraft wrote works as whole.  He conveys exactly the impression he wants to convey, but he does so by doing a lot of no-no’s in creative writing.  From a purely technical standpoint, his writing is flawed, even if he does so deliberately.  Although some critics have labeled him an amateur, I personally think he demonstrates a solid understanding of technique – he deliberately breaks the rules to achieve the effect he seeks.

Most important things first, at this point you're blatantly contradicting yourself. On the one hand you say Lovecraft's stories "have a unique feel", that he "conveys exactly the impression he wants to convey", and that he writes the way he does "deliberately", i.e. knowing what he's doing after having thought about it. You know what, that actually sounds like a quite useful definition of what it means to have a good writing technique. On the other hand you say he "does no-nos in creative writing".
Are you implying there are specific things one must not do in order to have a good writing technique? Well, congratulations, in that case you just said Lovecraft went and did them and still wrote enjoyable stories, something that seems nearly impossible if one's writing technique really is as "horrible" as you said earlier.


Actually I studied Lovecraft’s writing a bit although it was years ago, and I’ve read quite a lot of it.  You’re either missing my point or deliberately ignoring it.  Lovecraft is often guilty of reporting the action rather than describing it.  At times, parts of his stories read like newspaper articles.  He’s also very fond of describing things in abstract terms rather than concretely.  He throws around a lot of meaningless adjectives like ‘horrible’ and ‘eldritch’ and ‘cthonic’.  His prose tends towards the verbose and feels overwritten at times.  His characters are largely two dimensional.  As a whole, his writing tends to feel amateurish.  I would even argue that his pacing is uneven at times.

The only point you made was that Lovecrafts writing technique was "horrible", there's not much to miss or ignore there. From this paragraph I get the impression that you are stuck with a list of dos and don'ts in writing that you regard as dogma, and fail to consider that the better approach might be the one you seem to reserve for justifying your guilty pleasures. Please correct me if I'm wrong. But do consider asking yourself what effect the author might want to achieve, and whether and how it is achieved. If you do, every point of criticism you mentioned in this paragraph turns out to be the technically correct thing to do.

Firstly, that his stories often read like reports. That's not a big surprise, since many of hist stories are fictional reports, At the Mountains of Madness and The Call of Cthulhu to name two of his better-known ones. Of course they read like reports, they wouldn't work if they didn't. This is especially true for Cthulhu where all the information is second-hand at best, and hearsay at worst. Imagine that one with the action "described rather than reported", as you term it, possibly with multiple narrators, the entire structure would break down and any effect it has on the reader would be lost. Isn't it part of having a good writing technique to know which style to employ for your purpose?

Secondly, that Lovecraft describes things abstractly rather than concretely. This is merely the logical outgrowth of the topic Lovecraft wrote about, his stories of horror are nearly always about horror of the unknown, of the unknowable even. You simply cannot go and describe the unknown in concrete terms, that would defeat its purpose. When a character in a Lovecraftian story encounters horror they don't even know what they are seeing, much less how to describe it. The only ways for an author to handle the situation are either to use what you call "meaningless adjectives" (which, I would like to add, make up a considerable part of the rhythm of the texts I mentioned earlier) or by having the characters desperately fumble for comparisons that in the end are as unenlightening as "meaningless adjectives". Lovecraft uses both methods. Wouldn't you say it's part of a good writing technique to know when not to describe something, instead of turning it into something mundane?

Thirdly, about the two-dimensionality of the characters. Well, what do you expect from a story that may be as short as 5 or 6 pages and even in the case of the longer ones is not character-driven? This ties back to the point I made about the stories being fictional reports, character development necessarily takes a back seat with any such mode of writing. Lovecraft never had the intention of making the reader sympathize with a character and then make them feel horrible when the character is killed by a vampire or whatever. No, the point is to make humanity as a whole seem insignificant. Developing the emotional life, wishes, hopes and worries of a dozen characters in a 1000 pages long epic tale of love, war and the destruction of mankind when it's unwittingly stepped on by something it cannot even begin to comprehend wouldn't only be unnecessary, it would completely derail the story and ruin the point. I do not care whether Randolph Carter is a bachelor, loves his wife, or has an affair and wants a divorce. It simply does not matter, including it would be a waste of lines. So, lastly, isn't it a sign of having a good writing technique not to overload a story with unnecessary details?


I’m making essentially the same argument for Lovecraft as for Tolkien.  The works of both authors had their flaws, deliberate or otherwise, which is something that fanboys are often all too quick to dismiss.  I enjoy the work of both authors, but that doesn’t mean that I think they’re perfect or that I won't look at them from a critical point of view.

And I am disagreeing with your categorization. You say that some of the things, possibly even the main things, that define a Lovecraftian story are flaws. At the same time you praise the author for the effect his stories have and say they are enjoyable. I really cannot see how those two points of view go together.


Um, go to hell?

There's really no need for you to resort to personal remarks like that, as you may note I have refrained from using them, and did in fact not use any in my first post on this topic either. I really wish you'll mend your ways and that we can keep this civil.

Offline Scudworth

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Re: How would YOU have ended Lord of the Rings?
« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2011, 04:30:59 PM »
Too Long. Did not read!

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Offline froody1911

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Re: How would YOU have ended Lord of the Rings?
« Reply #50 on: March 04, 2011, 04:49:11 PM »
Guys guys GUYS!
Leave Lovecraft out of this thread please.

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Offline Sabinlerose

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Re: How would YOU have ended Lord of the Rings?
« Reply #51 on: March 04, 2011, 06:54:07 PM »
I like to think that the Shanara series is everything Lord of the Rings could and should have been.

Offline Ixarku

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Re: How would YOU have ended Lord of the Rings?
« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2011, 10:21:14 PM »
Undetz,
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To everyone else, sorry the thread got derailed.  I don’t intend to continue the current discussion.
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Offline Proin Drakenzol

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Re: How would YOU have ended Lord of the Rings?
« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2011, 01:22:49 AM »
I like to think that the Shanara series is everything Lord of the Rings could and should have been.


Ummm... crappy?

The Shannara series was terrible.

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Offline Sabinlerose

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Re: How would YOU have ended Lord of the Rings?
« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2011, 01:35:16 AM »
I like to think that the Shanara series is everything Lord of the Rings could and should have been.
Ummm... crappy?
The Shannara series was terrible.
If by crappy you mean enjoyable characters, plots that make sense, and an overarching story that makes sense...

Then yes you are correct.

Offline Ixarku

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Re: How would YOU have ended Lord of the Rings?
« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2011, 02:09:05 AM »
I read Shannara up thru the 'Heritage' series, and dropped it after that.  They were enjoyable for light reading, but I thought Brooks' storylines and characters just became too repetitive.  He did manage at times to create some scenes or sequences that to me were really vivid.  'Sword' was pretty forgettable, but 'Elfstones' and 'Wishsong' both had fairly bleak tones, which I liked, and parts of 'Heritage' had the same feeling.

I kind of lump Brooks in with David Eddings, as authors I enjoyed when I was in high school, but which I grew out of.  Both are authors that I consider good to introduce to a new or younger reader of fantasy who's curious about the genre but not looking for anything too heavy.

'Sword' is pretty obviously a derivative of LotR (which is a polite way of saying that Brooks unabashedly ripped off parts of LotR).  I don't think 'Sword' lives up to LotR, but it gave Brooks a good starting point to go off in his own direction in the later books.
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Offline Proin Drakenzol

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Re: How would YOU have ended Lord of the Rings?
« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2011, 03:40:39 AM »
I like to think that the Shanara series is everything Lord of the Rings could and should have been.
Ummm... crappy?
The Shannara series was terrible.
If by crappy you mean enjoyable characters, plots that make sense, and an overarching story that makes sense...

Then yes you are correct.

We clearly have different criteria on what makes for enjoyable characters, sensical plots, and a sensical overarching story.

Now, Brooks' other series, the Landover series, was quite entertaining. But the Shannara books were just bland recycled brand flat fiction.

The linear nature of your Euclidean geometry both confounds and befuddles me.

Offline Sabinlerose

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Re: How would YOU have ended Lord of the Rings?
« Reply #57 on: March 05, 2011, 03:58:19 AM »
I read Shannara up thru the 'Heritage' series, and dropped it after that.  They were enjoyable for light reading, but I thought Brooks' storylines and characters just became too repetitive.  He did manage at times to create some scenes or sequences that to me were really vivid.  'Sword' was pretty forgettable, but 'Elfstones' and 'Wishsong' both had fairly bleak tones, which I liked, and parts of 'Heritage' had the same feeling.

I kind of lump Brooks in with David Eddings, as authors I enjoyed when I was in high school, but which I grew out of.  Both are authors that I consider good to introduce to a new or younger reader of fantasy who's curious about the genre but not looking for anything too heavy.

'Sword' is pretty obviously a derivative of LotR (which is a polite way of saying that Brooks unabashedly ripped off parts of LotR).  I don't think 'Sword' lives up to LotR, but it gave Brooks a good starting point to go off in his own direction in the later books.
I liked Sword a lot more then I liked LoTRs.
No denying at all that it borrowed heavily though.

Curious what you think about the Word and the Void series.
Running with the Demon is one of my favorite books I have ever read.

I like to think that the Shanara series is everything Lord of the Rings could and should have been.
Ummm... crappy?
The Shannara series was terrible.
If by crappy you mean enjoyable characters, plots that make sense, and an overarching story that makes sense...

Then yes you are correct.

We clearly have different criteria on what makes for enjoyable characters, sensical plots, and a sensical overarching story.

Now, Brooks' other series, the Landover series, was quite entertaining. But the Shannara books were just bland recycled brand flat fiction.
Curious how much you actually read?
Most people read Sword and thats it.
They never get around to Running with the Demon (Word and the Void series) or the Voyage of the Jerle series.
Which is understandable since if you're not liking something...why finish reading it.
-laughs-

Landover is also quite interesting. I really enjoyed Ben Holiday, and the Prism Cat whose name I can't remember for the life of me.

Offline Nikkoru

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Re: How would YOU have ended Lord of the Rings?
« Reply #58 on: March 05, 2011, 04:46:24 AM »
The Word and the Void series only needed to be one book - he could have written it all in one story or just left Running with the Demon. With this Brooks falls into the unfortunate categories of overusing cliched American dialogue and character archetypes, there's only so much of that one can stand before you start to wonder if the writer has ever participated in a genuine conversation. There are loads of mysteries writers I've encountered who have the same neurosis. The initial urban fantasy setting, and the premise of the story was interesting - but I was nonplussed with the expression of anxiety and despair for the American working class.

As for LotR, the only real change I would have made is killing off Sam - I enjoy deaths of main characters as the story progresses. Though the ending wasn't an issue with me so much as there could have been more content in the middle - I've liked the idea of a long and winding fantasy epic since reading the Wheel of Time.
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Offline Fool010

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Re: How would YOU have ended Lord of the Rings?
« Reply #59 on: March 05, 2011, 08:45:13 AM »
I think what bogs LOTR down the most is the fact it isn't a separate work, but part of a larger cycle that never got written. As a consequence the flow gets killed by the amount of background info Tolkien pours in.

But my main gripe still remains the lack of effort he's put into the characters, it's pretty much obvious he cared a lot more about the context and the story than about them.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2011, 09:15:29 AM by Fool010 »
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