The best storyline in game history?

[froody1911]

That's just pretentious bullshit. It's possible to manipulate a majority of game stories and give them underlying themes. It's possible to bend anything to get a "deep" interpretation.
If you think either ICO or SotC were anything except what they appeared "on the surface", you're wasting your time over-thinking. There is nothing to those games except the "surface" itself.

[Osmo]

That's just pretentious bullshit. It's possible to manipulate a majority of game stories and give them underlying themes. It's possible to bend anything to get a "deep" interpretation.
If you think either ICO or SotC were anything except what they appeared "on the surface", you're wasting your time over-thinking. There is nothing to those games except the "surface" itself.

Lmao. Maybe your thinking is just surface level then.

[TMRNetShark]

That's just pretentious bullshit. It's possible to manipulate a majority of game stories and give them underlying themes. It's possible to bend anything to get a "deep" interpretation.
If you think either ICO or SotC were anything except what they appeared "on the surface", you're wasting your time over-thinking. There is nothing to those games except the "surface" itself.

A real 'tard moment for you, eh?

Shadow of Colossus Theories (scroll down to "Theories")


ICO and SotC do have underlying themes. If don't think so, then congratulations... you do not know how to interpret forms of art. As you can see by the table of contents of the webpage, there are 7 main areas that they discuss about the game, each one that goes into heavy depth. So what you are saying is clearly false and those games are both oozing with deep interpretation.

[tomoya-kun]

That's just pretentious bullshit. It's possible to manipulate a majority of game stories and give them underlying themes. It's possible to bend anything to get a "deep" interpretation.
If you think either ICO or SotC were anything except what they appeared "on the surface", you're wasting your time over-thinking. There is nothing to those games except the "surface" itself.

A real 'tard moment for you, eh?

Shadow of Colossus Theories (scroll down to "Theories")


ICO and SotC do have underlying themes. If don't think so, then congratulations... you do not know how to interpret forms of art. As you can see by the table of contents of the webpage, there are 7 main areas that they discuss about the game, each one that goes into heavy depth. So what you are saying is clearly false and those games are both oozing with deep interpretation.

Well, it's IMO a pretty shallow story even with people who try and make it deep.

[TMRNetShark]

Well, it's IMO a pretty shallow story even with people who try and make it deep.

Your kidding right? Do I have to spell it out for you??

Dormin is the God of the land? Dormin was imprisoned into 16 different entities that made the colossi? The colossi were all part of the land and were only evil because humans imprisoned Dormin. Does this not seem eeriely similar to how humans believe in God, therefore making God vastly effective on our lands (humans killing in the name of God)? Since the humans (in the game) imprisoned Dormin (by separating his "essence" into the 16 colossi), they essentially made Dormin (God) as real as God is today in the minds of human beings. So was killing the colossi inherently Good or Evil (killing innocent animals versus freeing God?)? What about love? Would you go out and kill 16 colossi if there was a chance that the girl (or guy) that you loved would come back to life?

Is it a coincidence that Dormin is Nimrod spelled backwards (Hebrew legends) and the Colossi are in reference to Golems? There are 5 humanoid colossi... each one holding a weapon in their right hand (just like Wander). Phaedra is latin for "Elite War Horse"... just like Argo (Wander's horse). There are tons more for the other colossi. Infant Wander's horns were representations of his sins (for killing Mono) but eludes to Ico's horns on his helmet. Does any of this connect for you?

At any point during the game, Wander could have given up on his quest and accepted Mono's death. The relative useless task of killing innocent and majestic creatures took it's toll on Wander, and future proved to himself that after killing each colossi that what he was doing was unnatural. The guy had even lost his only friend in this lonely land when Argo died. Did he give up hope? Nope, he endured all in the name of Mono. Nothing drives him through each colossi except for the chance at reviving his Love. Even in his dying moments at the end of the game (being stabbed and arrowed), he does not give up once.

During the entire game, the player felt like the small and insignificant being compared to the powerful colossi. At the end of the game, the perspective seems VERY different (if you finished the game, you'd know what I mean) and it's only natural that you were doomed to fail. Even in the very VERY last part of the game:

(click to show/hide)

You are faced with reaching Mono at the alter, or being sucked into the vortex. The vortex will never let you get up the stairs, but you can struggle for as long as you want to get to Mono. In the end, you can only give up and die.

The one overarching theme of SoTC?

(click to show/hide)

One must accept death or struggle against it for their entire lives until death accepts them.

Trust me, SoTC has a lot of deeper meaning...

[froody1911]

^That "one overarching theme" is something that anyone fairly clever person who plays the game would realize while playing it. It's not subtext. Neither is the significance of the ending sequence, which was more or less in-your-face.

The whole Dormin thing, though? Bullshit.
Think about it this way: Wander is told that if he kills 16 giants, his love will be cured. He knows absolute jackshit about the giants. To him, they're just monsters. He has the capacity to kill them. So he goes and does it. After all, why wouldn't he?
Does his decision have any deep thought put into it? Does it have any consequences that he knows of, other than Mono being cured? Nope.

[TMRNetShark]

^That "one overarching theme" is something that anyone fairly clever person who plays the game would realize while playing it. It's not subtext. Neither is the significance of the ending sequence, which was more or less in-your-face.

The whole Dormin thing, though? Bullshit.
Think about it this way: Wander is told that if he kills 16 giants, his love will be cured. He knows absolute jackshit about the giants. To him, they're just monsters. He has the capacity to kill them. So he goes and does it. After all, why wouldn't he?
Does his decision have any deep thought put into it? Does it have any consequences that he knows of, other than Mono being cured? Nope.

The PLAYER knows (or believes) that Wander will die trying no matter what. He injures himself, gets his horse killed, and the player (as in YOU) can try as long as you like to struggle against the vortex. In the end, it was all for nothing. Are you saying that the plot and story and ending didn't move you at all? You felt nothing after experiencing that?

[froody1911]

No, because the "message" of the game was something I realized as a child.
That's not the point here. The point is that the entire game had a simple and cliche story. And at the end, there was a message BAM in your face.
It was an excellent game, but I do not consider this anywhere near one of the best storylines in agame.

[TMRNetShark]

No, because the "message" of the game was something I realized as a child.
That's not the point here. The point is that the entire game had a simple and cliche story. And at the end, there was a message BAM in your face.
It was an excellent game, but I do not consider this anywhere near one of the best storylines in agame.

Explain why the story was simple... please give examples.

Explain why the story was cliche... please give examples.

I shall now retort:

In Shakespeare's play, Hamlet, the audience is made to care about Ophelia and we are made to feel sadness knowing that she will not survive even though we wish for her to struggle on. In SoTC, we play as the character who struggles on... and we are meant to care because of Wander's guilty for killing Mono. Even though both relationships are doomed, the audience wants and yearns for both people to endure the struggles and overcome death. This is called dramatic necessity and does have an impact on the audience. You would agree that there are dumb people out there who wouldn't get why Hamlet was such a great play... well guess what? If there are people who don't get Hamlet, there are gonna be people who don't get SoTC's story and view it as "simple" or cliche. 

In Hamlet's play, we infer that Ophelia is going to die in the play. If Hamlet was a video game, then we would have the choice for Ophelia to either forget about Hamlet or let her kill herself. Having choice in the matter allows you to take either path, but this destroys what is called TRAGEDY and eliminates your hopes being dashed (that Mono would be revived and Wander & her live happily ever after). Now I know you didn't know what "tragedy" is as a kid, and SoTC was a great example of a video game having classic Shakespearean tragedy. You see, in games like Mass Effect (that one might claim is a good storyline driven game), one would have the choice of either saving Ashley Williams or letting her die. That choice may not have been as black&white as one might think, but it's by no means Shakespearean tragedy if you decided (as the player) to let her die because it ruins the emotional power of lack of choice in the matter. The reason being is that the player (as the audience) has their hopes for Wander to succeed, yet to make it a tragedy, the game needs to have the opposite of what the audience wants to happen... creating that emotional power. Is it still simple and cliche as I am making these connections for you?

Now please, to make something simple... it would NEVER be comparable to Shakespeare's Hamlet (arguably one of the greatest stories of our modern age) yet I just drew a parallel between Hamlet and SoTC. So it's clear that you either don't get SoTC (and therefore do not get Hamlet)... or you really didn't play the game.

As for cliche, please... name 5 other games/movies/TV shows that has the same themes of SoTC and are executed the same way that SoTC did it. (Shakespeare and Shakespearean related movies excluded seeing as how SoTC took themes from Shakespeare)

[Osmo]

Explain why the story was simple... please give examples.

Explain why the story was cliche... please give examples.

Here's you answer:

No, because the "message" of the game was something I realized as a child.

They realized it as a child. Realized it as a child.




































It was realized as a child.
























Realized it was a child.

[deadskin]

This game...
Sims 3....
I heard it's got a nice story.

[TMRNetShark]

This game...
Sims 3....
I heard it's got a nice story.

It's definitely a unique storyline... for each person!

[angrmgmt]

You would agree that there are dumb people out there who wouldn't get why Hamlet was such a great play... well guess what? If there are people who don't get Hamlet, there are gonna be people who don't get SoTC's story and view it as "simple" or cliche. 

Shakespeare is cliche
Don't believe me?
Still??

There are VOLUMES written about cliche phrases and themes in Shakespeare plays.  They teach college courses about the stuff, man.

Your move.  ^_^

PS - I've never even played the game, so as far as I know it's not in the slightest cliche and has nothing to do with Shakespeare.  Just saying, wrong is wrong.

[wolkec]

deus ex...

Can't believe it didn't even get a mention. Best game ever

[TMRNetShark]

You would agree that there are dumb people out there who wouldn't get why Hamlet was such a great play... well guess what? If there are people who don't get Hamlet, there are gonna be people who don't get SoTC's story and view it as "simple" or cliche. 

Shakespeare is cliche
Don't believe me?
Still??

There are VOLUMES written about cliche phrases and themes in Shakespeare plays.  They teach college courses about the stuff, man.

Your move.  ^_^

PS - I've never even played the game, so as far as I know it's not in the slightest cliche and has nothing to do with Shakespeare.  Just saying, wrong is wrong.

A. Stop being naive...
B. Hamlet is only filled with cliche phrases, not themes. The links you gave me was just the definition of cliche, a list of cliche phrases that Shakespeare coined himself (thus, was Shakespeare the person who used cliches or did people use his phrases and turned them cliche through repetition... mind you, Shakespeare's plays have been going on for quite some time), and finally some guy reviewing a certain production of Shakespeare in London. Great counter-arguments... 

So for starters, I wasn't comparing the whole play of Hamlet to SoTC... I was comparing the tragedy element of Hamlet to SoTC (Hamlet has a lot of themes like Revenge and Incestuous Desire, neither of which were in SoTC). So not only did you just fall flat on your face (by not aiming at the themes but focusing on cliche phrases that were said in Shakespeare's plays), but you are claiming that I am wrong even though you have never finished the game. Congrats, you've gone full blown retarded. You may redeem yourself yet... so taking from what I said, comparing dramatic necessity from Hamlet to SoTC, name 5 other games/movies/TV shows that express those same themes that is comparable to theme I mentioned for Hamlet/SoTC (just in case your too stupid to remember, dramatic necessity is the theme you are looking for). I can gaurantee you that theme is not cliche, and once again... people are too stupid to understand the themes of Hamlet and hence... Shadows of The Colossus. (Yourself included)

Your move. 

[angrmgmt]

You would agree that there are dumb people out there who wouldn't get why Hamlet was such a great play... well guess what? If there are people who don't get Hamlet, there are gonna be people who don't get SoTC's story and view it as "simple" or cliche.  

Shakespeare is cliche
Don't believe me?
Still??

There are VOLUMES written about cliche phrases and themes in Shakespeare plays.  They teach college courses about the stuff, man.

Your move.  ^_^

PS - I've never even played the game, so as far as I know it's not in the slightest cliche and has nothing to do with Shakespeare.  Just saying, wrong is wrong.

A. Stop being naive...

You're a little young to be calling me naive, padawan.  I'll forgive the hubris of youth, though.

B. Hamlet is only filled with cliche phrases, not themes. The links you gave me was just the definition of cliche, a list of cliche phrases that Shakespeare coined himself (thus, was Shakespeare the person who used cliches or did people use his phrases and turned them cliche through repetition... mind you, Shakespeare's plays have been going on for quite some time), and finally some guy reviewing a certain production of Shakespeare in London. Great counter-arguments...  

And to be nice, I deleted the phrase "These are just a few links that I could barely stay interested long enough to google for you."  You're almost right about my links, except the review includes several themes of Shakespeare's that do pop up in many other things from time to time.  Oh, and then there's the fact that if you actually read those phrases, you will see that several of them are themes unto themselves.  Unfortunately for your ego, (and shame on you, you should know this since you're attending school) there ARE college-level courses and entire volumes (read:  sets of books) written regarding the use of themes from Shakespeare's plays whether you are aware of them or not.  This use (and overuse) turns everything he's ever done into a cliche over time.  Do you honestly think that all the stories you watch, read, or play are original?  You called me naive?

So for starters, I wasn't comparing the whole play of Hamlet to SoTC... I was comparing the tragedy element of Hamlet to SoTC (Hamlet has a lot of themes like Revenge and Incestuous Desire, neither of which were in SoTC). So not only did you just fall flat on your face (by not aiming at the themes but focusing on cliche phrases that were said in Shakespeare's plays), but you are claiming that I am wrong even though you have never finished the game. Congrats, you've gone full blown retarded. You may redeem yourself yet... so taking from what I said, comparing dramatic necessity from Hamlet to SoTC, name 5 other games/movies/TV shows that express those same themes that is comparable to theme I mentioned for Hamlet/SoTC (just in case your too stupid to remember, dramatic necessity is the theme you are looking for). I can gaurantee you that theme is not cliche, and once again... people are too stupid to understand the themes of Hamlet and hence... Shadows of The Colossus. (Yourself included)

Your move.  

Off the top of my head, Irreversible and Requiem for a Dream come to mind.  Can't think of any more at the moment, but I'm sure there are plenty.  Just because I can't think of them at 8 am doesn't mean they don't exist.  My claim that you are wrong stems from the fact that you're seemingly unaware that Shakespeare source material is the very definition of cliche.  No crime, to be sure, but it does make your argument weaker.

And look, there's a whole reply without once calling you stupid or a retard.  Shit, I didn't even imply it.  I get +100 internets.

[Osmo]

I wanted to buy a PS2 just to play a certain Metal Gear solid game.

And is it worth playing planescape torment considering its a grandad game?

[Reape]

And is it worth playing planescape torment considering its a grandad game?

You dare even ask..

[TMRNetShark]

@angrmgmt

You just don't get it, do you? Age has nothing to do with being intelligent, thus you dug yourself into the stupid hole there.

Second: You claim that there are dozens of books that go into the themes of Shakespeare but you have yet to procure them. Then you claim that they are indeed factual, when really you are assuming. Either show proof of these cliche themes being used significantly in our modern entertainment, or draw conclusions or parallels between Shakespeare and the show/movie/video game. Don't spout nonsense that you neither understand nor even mention and try to claim it as fact. Draw your own conclusions YOURSELF. Using other people's words (without even stating those words, whatever they are) as an argument does not give your argument any leg to stand on and make you look DUMB. That's right. D. U. M. B.

So you are claiming that Requiem for a Dream is a cliche movie compared to other movies today and in the past? Do you even understand the concept of cliche? You even linked a definition of the word cliche. It means the repeated use of a phrase and/or theme until it becomes a STEREOTYPE. Since when was Requiem for a Dream a stereotypical movie? How many movies out there end the narrative by going against the audiences' hopes for the protagonists? There aren't that many (mind you there are some movies that follow Shakespearean themes) but they ALL do not fit the term cliche. Go ahead, look at your wikipedia page that defines what cliche is. It's not just repetition, it's repetition until it becomes a stereotype. That, and when was the last time someone pointed out a Shakespearan stereotype to you?

[angrmgmt]

@angrmgmt

You just don't get it, do you? Age has nothing to do with being intelligent, thus you dug yourself into the stupid hole there.

Incorrect.  I simply attempted to help you to realize that as naive as you may think I am, you are speaking from a position of relatively greater naivete.  Hope that makes sense.  I'm well aware of the lack of correlation between age and intelligence.  Age and wisdom, however, have a relationship that is quite direct.  Now calm down with your "stupid hole" mudslinging and stick to the facts, slugger.  ^_^

Second: I am too lazy to look things up for myself.  Also you're a big dumb dummy since you won't do it for me.

Paraphrased, obviously, but okay.  Here you go.  Need more on the "themes from phrases" concept?  Also, to answer a question from the next paragraph, I have a close friend who has a degree in English literature, has several of those books on his shelves, and has taken the classes to which I referred.  He points out Shakespearean tropes, themes, and cliches to me constantly.  I'm not making this stuff up!  Consider the fact that your experience of reality may be limited, please!

So you are claiming that Requiem for a Dream is a cliche movie compared to other movies today and in the past? Do you even understand the concept of cliche? You even linked a definition of the word cliche. It means the repeated use of a phrase and/or theme until it becomes a STEREOTYPE. Since when was Requiem for a Dream a stereotypical movie? How many movies out there end the narrative by going against the audiences' hopes for the protagonists? There aren't that many (mind you there are some movies that follow Shakespearean themes) but they ALL do not fit the term cliche. Go ahead, look at your wikipedia page that defines what cliche is. It's not just repetition, it's repetition until it becomes a stereotype. That, and when was the last time someone pointed out a Shakespearan stereotype to you?

Wrong again.  I'm claiming (in response to your "homework question") that those are examples of dramatic necessity... a term you BOLDED in your post.  I'm actually not even sure why I bothered to do it, since you seem to be arguing from a fixed position.  As far as I can tell, nothing anyone says could possibly convince you that you're just missing the point.  I am going to venture a guess that this is because you REALLY liked SotC, and you identify with it personally.  As with religion, it's very difficult (read:  nigh impossible) to productively argue with someone who internalizes and identifies very strongly with a particular belief.  Shame how often this happens.  =/

Anyway, to restate my original claim, you can't argue that something is not cliche by comparing it to something that is notoriously cliche, no matter how superfluously great, or deep, nuanced, and involved you think that thing to be.  It's simply not a good argument.  I'm still not contesting the claim that the game is deep and complex, thematically!  Again, I have no ground from which to do so, as I mentioned in my first post.