Discussion Forums > Gaming
The best storyline in game history?
TMRNetShark:
--- Quote from: angrmgmt on September 06, 2011, 10:05:31 PM ---
Paraphrased, obviously, but okay. Here you go. Need more on the "themes from phrases" concept? Also, to answer a question from the next paragraph, I have a close friend who has a degree in English literature, has several of those books on his shelves, and has taken the classes to which I referred. He points out Shakespearean tropes, themes, and cliches to me constantly. I'm not making this stuff up! Consider the fact that your experience of reality may be limited, please!
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I want you to consider one thing... You keep on saying that themes are cliche... that's literally IMPOSSIBLE. I mean, congratulations. You listed works that are based on Shakespeare. You listed educational books that showed how Shakespeare's work influenced generations of art. Does that make Shakespeare's themes cliche? No, because you time and time again think that Shakespeare's themes can get cliche. If they are so cliche, why are people still putting on productions of Shakespeare's plays? Or basing their works off of Shakespeare's themes? Hell, why are we even still caring about Shakespeare?
You made one fatal flaw in your argument. There is no "friend" with an degree in English, nor are there books upon books that proves Shakespeare is cliche. Wanna know why? I'm gonna go ahead and lay it on you (because clearly you don't get it).
A THEME is the over arching message of a piece of work. That means many works of art can have the same theme but got to that overarching idea in many different ways. If you think that themes can only be portrayed by using the same story and plot elements, you are wrong. If you think that just because the theme is the same, does not make it cliche. You cannot have a cliche theme. You can have a cliche story and plot elements, but you can never have a cliche theme.
A CLICHE is an overused expression or saying or element to the point where it's MEANINGLESS. Are Shakespeare's plays now meaningless? Is no one in school or college not teaching Shakespeare anymore because Shakespeare has become cliche and lost it's original meaning? Are you confusing Shakespeare and people who base their works on Shakespeare as Truisms? Would you not agree that most if not all of Shakespeare's themes are truisms (which is commonly mistaken by "wiser" people like you for being cliche)? So let's take Hamlet's themes: Revenge, Mortality, Madness, Religion, Deceit, Sex, and Family. Each one of those themes is expressed in Hamlet, right? How can those be cliche? Those are all truisms because people know of all of those themes to be true and relevant to real life that it wouldn't even cross their minds that it was false. Yet, Shakespeare wrote his poetry in a way to maximize each of the themes effectiveness in his story.
--- Quote from: angrmgmt on September 06, 2011, 10:05:31 PM ---Wrong again. I'm claiming (in response to your "homework question") that those are examples of dramatic necessity... a term you BOLDED in your post. I'm actually not even sure why I bothered to do it, since you seem to be arguing from a fixed position. As far as I can tell, nothing anyone says could possibly convince you that you're just missing the point. I am going to venture a guess that this is because you REALLY liked SotC, and you identify with it personally. As with religion, it's very difficult (read: nigh impossible) to productively argue with someone who internalizes and identifies very strongly with a particular belief. Shame how often this happens. =/
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Omg, you cannot follow your own train of thought. You claim Shakespeare is cliche. I tell you to name a piece of entertainment that has dramatic necessity and that it will NOT be a cliche piece of work. You said Requiem for a Dream. How is Requiem for a Dream a cliche for having dramatic necessity? Just in case you forgot:
--- Quote from: TMRNetShark on September 06, 2011, 01:15:28 PM ---You may redeem yourself yet... so taking from what I said, comparing dramatic necessity from Hamlet to SoTC, name 5 other games/movies/TV shows that express those same themes that is comparable to theme I mentioned for Hamlet/SoTC (just in case your too stupid to remember, dramatic necessity is the theme you are looking for). I can gaurantee you that theme is not cliche, and once again... people are too stupid to understand the themes of Hamlet and hence... Shadows of The Colossus. (Yourself included)
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--- Quote from: angrmgmt on September 06, 2011, 02:54:02 PM ---Off the top of my head, Irreversible and Requiem for a Dream come to mind.
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Does Requiem for a Dream have dramatic necessity or is it cliche?! Which one is it?! You seem to claim that Irreversible and Requiem for a Dream use dramatic necessity... but Shakespeare himself used dramatic necessity in his own works... that you claim as cliche! Unless you meant that Requiem for a Dream only used dramatic necessity to make the plot interesting. That would mean the movie used Mortality as a theme. But wait, Mortality is a theme in Hamlet's Shakespeare. That would mean that Requiem for a Dream's theme of Mortality is also cliche? So not only are you trying to claim themes as cliches... but you contradict yourself?
Actually, name a theme that would be "cliche" in any of Shakespeare's work... I bet you it's actually a Truism.
So no, back into the stupid hole. ::)
shabutie:
I just wanna say...
If you played a game, didn't know what happened, googled it, then found out what happened... How was the story well told if someone other than the game had to tell you what happened?
(That's all on my SotC debate thing)
~
As for games with good stories. I've always enjoyed the Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time and SMT: Nocturne. Probably not the BEST, but surely one of my favorites. It's hard to balance out a strong storyline with a strong single player though. Because some games have great storylines, but get lost in mucky gameplay (See: Advent Rising... Pretty much Mass Effect, before Mass Effect). And some games have strong gameplay but a lacking story (See: God of War, Intelligent Qube :P)
angrmgmt:
So all that puffery just to say that you are of the opinion that there exist a separate class of themes for which you have misappropriated the term "Truisms". You're saying that the ad nauseum repetition of the elements of this class as themes in a broad spectrum of entertainment media is due to their ability to so clearly depict default characteristics of human nature or human lifestyles and it is this ability that differentiates them from other themes used throughout the same spectrum of entertainment.
Seems a bit "epicycles and deferents" to me, but okay. Thanks for sharing your point of view. I consider all themes equally, and don't choose to splinter off a subset and give them a revered position amongst the others. It's not as if I think that themes can be delivered only one way. I just don't see theme construction as anything other than a flavor. 1+3=4 and 2+2=4 are basically just two representations of the same thing to me. I might prefer one and you the other, but we can both agree that each is 4. You can have a cliche theme if you see it that way.
Also, if you ask me, there is very little going on in the entertainment world that is in any way meaningful. So yeah, the themes from Shakespeare's plays are meaningless, as they appear today. Call me a philistine, I care not.
--- Quote from: TMRNetShark on September 07, 2011, 01:44:43 AM ---Does Requiem for a Dream have dramatic necessity or is it cliche?! Which one is it?! You seem to claim that Irreversible and Requiem for a Dream use dramatic necessity... but Shakespeare himself used dramatic necessity in his own works... that you claim as cliche! Unless you meant that Requiem for a Dream only used dramatic necessity to make the plot interesting. That would mean the movie used Mortality as a theme. But wait, Mortality is a theme in Hamlet's Shakespeare. That would mean that Requiem for a Dream's theme of Mortality is also cliche? So not only are you trying to claim themes as cliches... but you contradict yourself?
Actually, name a theme that would be "cliche" in any of Shakespeare's work... I bet you it's actually a Truism.
So no, back into the stupid hole. ::)
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*sigh* Okay, check this out. Based on your argument, I was saying yes to both conditions: dramatic necessity, and that they are cliche, which was in opposition to your stance that there were not cliche stories using dramatic necessity. My intent was to give you two of the five requested counterexamples to your argument. That's how that works. If you say P is true for all, I give you counterexamples to prove that there are some for which P is not true. I don't go off on a tangent and call you stupid, which might have been what you were expecting.
Anyway, listen, this has been great, you've been a real peach. I think now that we've got it down to a difference of opinion, we should probably let this thread get back on track. PM me or whatever if you want to keep rappin'.
Osmo:
--- Quote from: shabutie on September 07, 2011, 02:15:16 AM ---I just wanna say...
If you played a game, didn't know what happened, googled it, then found out what happened... How was the story well told if someone other than the game had to tell you what happened?
(That's all on my SotC debate thing)
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The story is awesome because it told in a way that had your imagination going crazy.
We don't always need everything force fed to us.
And the amount of thinking and work that went into that game is crazy.
EvoluderGuy:
--- Quote from: froody1911 on September 04, 2011, 04:43:15 PM ---That's just pretentious bullshit. It's possible to manipulate a majority of game stories and give them underlying themes. It's possible to bend anything to get a "deep" interpretation.
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*Cough*Evangelion*Cough*
--- Quote from: shabutie on September 07, 2011, 02:15:16 AM ---I just wanna say...
If you played a game, didn't know what happened, googled it, then found out what happened... How was the story well told if someone other than the game had to tell you what happened?
(That's all on my SotC debate thing)
--- End quote ---
The story was extremely simple.
I mean really only like four things happen in the entire story.
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