Author Topic: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer  (Read 8496 times)

Offline kureshii

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #140 on: October 16, 2011, 09:04:32 AM »
Fooled by Intel and Apple? That's an amusing way to put it. Is AMD then "fooling" people into thinking it's the best value-for-money now, when as mentioned earlier it doesn't even hold the position in some segments anymore?

Nice job pulling percentage numbers from thin air btw. Maybe supporting your statements will help immensely.

[edit] OpenBenchmarking.org benchmarks of FX-8150 vs i7-2600K. Without more detailed hardware setup info it's hard to make conclusive statements about how Bulldozer performs in Linux compared to the i7; one would note that the Bulldozer processor is running on 4GB of RAM while the i7 is running on 8GB. No mention is made of DIMM speeds or configuration. Hard disk configuration is different as well. These differences all considered, the discrepancy in performance seems to be greater in Linux than in Windows; FX-8150 has a visible lead on the i7-2600K in 7zip MIPS in Windows while it doesn't have the lead in the p7zip benchmark. Not even the impact of DIMM speed (as estimated from other investigations, particularly from TweakTown and VR-Zone), sufficiently accounts for the difference.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 10:20:02 AM by kureshii »

Offline bloody000

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #141 on: October 16, 2011, 10:15:10 AM »
Yes, another one who thinks anyone that doesn't care about computers must be a mindless drone. You are not above "them" just because you care about a few pieces of silicon, kamuixtv99, maybe you will understand that when you find out that you're an "average joe" by shampoo enthusiast standard.
All you have to do is study it out. Just study it out.

Offline per

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #142 on: October 16, 2011, 11:19:37 AM »
Everything I've read about the Bulldozer's architecture screams "revolutionary", and I am an AMD fan boy, but when I went to build a new computer over the summer, I ended up buying a i5-2500k because it was more cost effective than AMD.

At least in a server setting the (server version) is anything but revolutionary. Unless you count lower performance and higher power usage as a revolution in internal heating.

It's "real" cores even scales worse than Intel Xeon hyperthreading. Per CPU clock it seems to be about at least 30% slower with very heavy multithreaded loads (200+ processes per node, with 24 "cores", versus 12 cores with hyperthreading for Intel).

In fact, in our tests a 2.2Ghz Intel Xeon L beat the bulldozer 2.4Ghz based test node hands down, the difference was about 20% in the intel CPU:s favor.

That might not look too bad unless you consider that the intel solution is cheaper and uses about 30% as much power.

Offline per

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #143 on: October 16, 2011, 11:25:37 AM »
You get what you pay with AMD, They have poor benchmarks but with its price, it's still the 'king' for massive buyers like for schools and internet cafes. These days what you see inside internet cafes are facebook and its lousy games and WoW :P

Unfortunately bulldozer is priced higher or the same as the competing intel parts. And the Intel parts use about a third of the power, which saves you a surprising amount of power over the years.

What I am most irritated about is that their server CPU section has been promising us lower power and more performance, the the truth is actually that their old server CPU:s are more efficient, and faster!

However, those are still not competitive with the Xeon CPU:s.

Offline kitamesume

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #144 on: October 16, 2011, 11:37:22 AM »
^ true at that, the problem is the PPW! seriously, who would want to save a couple of bucks(100$ vs i7-2600K) just to end up racking up his electric bill by another notch.

i can't even think of any advantage of getting a bulldozer, the motherboards costs like 2x more if you're talking "cheapest", the CPU sucks in electricity(lol pun), theres like three or four? benches that bulldozer gets a fair win.

BUT, if they ever find a way to make bulldozer more worth it, then consider me getting one as well, that is, if ivy bridge isnt more worth it than bulldozer/piledriver.

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Offline kureshii

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #145 on: October 16, 2011, 11:59:45 AM »
A couple more points that popped into mind (and more bored web-browsing at work).

Re-reading the FX-8150 reviews that matter again, I think Anand sums up AMD's position pretty well:

The good news is AMD has a very aggressive roadmap ahead of itself; here's hoping it will be able to execute against it. We all need AMD to succeed. We've seen what happens without a strong AMD as a competitor. We get processors that are artificially limited and severe restrictions on overclocking, particularly at the value end of the segment. We're denied choice simply because there's no other alternative. I don't believe Bulldozer is a strong enough alternative to force Intel back into an ultra competitive mode, but we absolutely need it to be that. I have faith that AMD can pull it off, but there's still a lot of progress that needs to be made. AMD can't simply rely on its GPU architecture superiority to sell APUs; it needs to ramp on the x86 side as well—more specifically, AMD needs better single threaded performance. Bulldozer didn't deliver that, and I'm worried that Piledriver alone won't be enough. But if AMD can stick to a yearly cadence and execute well with each iteration, there's hope. It's no longer a question of whether AMD will return to the days of the Athlon 64, it simply must. Otherwise you can kiss choice goodbye.

I hope AMD has enough improvements in store for Bulldozer to boost its performance as much, if not more. Few processors make it off the production line with all their intended features in place. Not even Sandy Bridge, with its smooth and timely release (Cougar Point's hiccups notwithstanding), got all its intended features; the rest will come with Ivy Bridge. AMD doesn't have the aggressive tick-tock release schedule of Intel, and instead releases a new, major architecture every few years, following it up with minor revisions/improvements (e.g. Agena -> Deneb -> Thuban for Phenom I/II). We saw some pretty nice performance improvements there, and we're going to have to rely on these architectural improvements on Bulldozer to see enough competition to keep Intel on their toes.

As for price/performance comparisons, here are a few high-end builds and their prices (CPU prices from Newegg except otherwise stated).
1        I take entry-level boards for each chipset (the cheapest product on Newegg) without consideration for board features, such as overclockability; these are commodity features determined by third-party board manufacturers and I'll avoid complicating the price/performance comparison with them.
2        I use the K-parts rather than the non-K ones so as to compare unlocked processors; you can get a better price at the cost of overclockability by going with non-K variants.
3        I'll ignore the 990FX here as I'm not interested in comparing quad-SLI builds, so chipsets with 32X PCIe lanes are out. Its direct Intel match would be the X79.
4        Budget options for AMD are available in the form of 700-series chipsets; from Intel they come in the form of lower-end chipsets (H61). I opted not to post any builds with these as those lack SATA 6Gbps; anyone buying high-end shouldn't be skimping on such minor price differences.

No mid/low-end comparisons are done here as I believe I've posted my analysis of AMD's positions in those segments in earlier posts. I might do so once the quad-core FX processors are benchmarked.

* Prices are tagged by CPU brand
CF/SLI builds (ranked by price):
X6 1055T ($150) + Asrock 870 ($90) = $240
X6 1100T ($190) + Asrock 870 ($90) = $280
FX-8120 ($220) + Asrock 970 ($110) = $330
i5-2500K ($220) + MSI P67 ($115) = $335
FX-8150 ($250 MSRP) + Asrock 970 ($110) = $360
i7-2600K ($315) + MSI P67 ($115) = $430

Single-x16 builds (ranked by price):
X6 1055T ($150) + Biostar 870 ($60) = $210
X6 1100T ($190) + Biostar 870 ($60) = $250
i5-2500K ($220) + Biostar H67 ($70) = $290
FX-8120 ($220) + MSI 970 ($85) = $305
FX-8150 ($250 MSRP) + MSI 970 ($85) = $335
i7-2600K ($315) + Biostar H67 ($70) = $385

[edit] Some changes made in CF/SLI selections. If you read this post before the last edit date-time, please refresh again.

Knowing how the 8150 performs against the 1100T, 2500K and 2600K, I am hard-pressed to call it a "value platform" from those prices.
For non-SLI/CF builds, the i7 offers equivalent real-world multithreaded performance and much better light-threaded performance, as well as lower power consumption/heat, for 10% more.
For gaming builds (SLI/CF), the X6 offers lower multithreaded performance but roughly equivalent gaming performance for much lower cost. The savings can be put into a better graphics setup which is more likely to see better gaming performance.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 02:29:22 AM by kureshii »

Offline per

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #146 on: October 16, 2011, 03:11:38 PM »
BUT, if they ever find a way to make bulldozer more worth it, then consider me getting one as well, that is, if ivy bridge isnt more worth it than bulldozer/piledriver.

From the server CPU side of things I have seen ivy bridge is a lot better than sandy bridge.

A 2x6-core blade with 48Gb RAM (+ssd) uses 120W peak power, and is faster than the old Xeon L. The gain in power efficiency is close to 30% (and this is with early silicon, and without low-power DDR3).

For us this means that we would save about $1M/year on power alone, and power usage costs goes from 50% to ~35% of the total cost over three years (we budget the servers for three years), and space savings since we need fewer nodes would save a bit too.

Compare this to buldoozer, where we would need 3x the power (around 6M), and power density concerns (we only have 20kW/rack or so) would cause us to be forces to use about 3x the space as well. And the CPU:s and chipsets are not even cheaper.

Really? What are they thinking with this CPU release?  :o

And in our tests intels hyperthreading actually is _more_ efficient at boosting performance than AMD:s "true core":s. That is the most suprising thing to me.

Offline kureshii

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #147 on: October 16, 2011, 03:47:26 PM »
And in our tests intels hyperthreading actually is _more_ efficient at boosting performance than AMD:s "true core":s. That is the most suprising thing to me.
How was that test conducted? Do you have a link? I really am quite curious, because AMD’s been hyping their Bulldozer Module as a better-than-hyperthreading technology—on paper, of course. But like we’ve seen with the Pentium 4, theories don’t always work out as expected.

Google turns up no comparison of the sort, but looking at this image gives me an idea for how to go about doing this:



Note that the point here is not to see how a quad-core, quad-module Bulldozer benchmarks against an i5, but to see how much of a performance gain hyperthreading gains for Sandy Bridge in various workloads, vs adding a second integer core in each Bulldozer module.

What use is this? It could help isolate Bulldozer’s bottlenecks in various workloads, particularly the single-threaded/lightly-threaded workloads. Those who have been convincingly bought over by AMD’s octo-core marketing might suddenly remember that the only truly separated resources in each module are the integer cores; both cores in each module still share the same fetch/decode units, as well as L2. The high latency of each cache, though necessary for AMD to achieve those high clock speeds, could adversely affect some memory-heavy benchmarks. The branch predictor is another possible bottleneck; Anand hypothesised this from the AIDA64 Queens benchmark, and it could potentially bottleneck other branch-heavy workloads as well.

My current thought is that the decode units might perhaps not be able to keep up both cores fully fed for light-compute workloads (where threads do not spend a lot of time in the integer execution units). Anandtech’s review has a comparison of decode capabilities of Thuban, FX and SB. This does not directly translate to raw instruction decode speed, but results from this test could help examine the results/implications of this change in decode resources, which could explain some of the discrepancies between Thuban and FX performance.

Add to this AMD’s claim that Windows 7’s scheduler is not optimised for a “non-uniform core architecture”, and you should be able to see how this experiment could lead to interesting results.

[edit] Some interesting results: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?275873-AMD-FX-quot-Bulldozer-quot-Review-%284%29-!exclusive!-Excuse-for-1-Threaded-Perf

It’s late and I’m tired, so comparisons with i5-vs-i7 will have to wait.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 04:59:05 PM by kureshii »

Offline per

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #148 on: October 16, 2011, 04:26:55 PM »
And in our tests intels hyperthreading actually is _more_ efficient at boosting performance than AMD:s "true core":s. That is the most suprising thing to me.
How was that test conducted? Do you have a link? I really am quite curious, because AMD’s been hyping their Bulldozer Module as a better-than-hyperthreading technology—on paper, of course. But like we’ve seen with the Pentium 4, theories don’t always work out as expected.

We simply ran our server software on the nodes, first with only one instance and then with the normal 100/node instances, and noted that the intel hardware with 2x6 cores can do 20 times more, while the 2x"8"core AMD could only do 11 times more.

Granted, not all that scientific, especially since the nodes also does a lot of other thins, network access etc, which means that the single-instance test is not really only using one cpu (it's fairly close, though).

In practice our software normally spends significant time waiting on RAM, and does perhaps 15% float and 85% integer computations when it is not waiting around.

Offline Lupin

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #149 on: October 16, 2011, 04:51:11 PM »

Offline kureshii

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #150 on: October 16, 2011, 04:59:24 PM »
It’s late and I’m tired, so comparisons with i5-vs-i7 will have to wait.
Screw sleeping.

Hyperthreading gain: calculated as ratio of i7-2600K to i5-2500K performance.
Module +1 core gain: calculated as ratio of FX-8150P 4CU/8C to 4CU/4C performance.

wPrime 32M*
Hyperthreading gain: 10.7 ÷ 7.222 = 48.2% increase
Module +1 core gain: 13.814 ÷ 9.531 = 44.9% increase

3DMark06
Hyperthreading gain: 6758 ÷ 6043 = 11.8% gain
Module +1 core gain: 5803 ÷ 4413 = 31.5% gain

3DMark Vantage
Hyperthreading gain: 23753 ÷ 17503 = 35.7% gain
Module +1 core gain: 19215 ÷ 12102 = 58.8% gain

3DMark 11 Physics
Hyperthreading gain: 8277 ÷ 6422 = 28.9% gain
Module +1 core gain: 6340 ÷ 4289 = 47.8% gain

Cinebench R10
Hyperthreading gain: 22875 ÷ 20381 = 12.2% gain
Module +1 core gain: 20592 ÷ 15033 = 37.0% gain

Cinebench R11.5*
Hyperthreading gain: 6.88 ÷ 5.47 = 25.8% gain
Module +1 core gain: 6 ÷ 3.8 = 57.9% gain

x264 HD
Hyperthreading gain: 36.3 ÷ 27.7 = 31.0% gain
Module +1 core gain: 37.23 ÷ 25.18 = 47.9% gain

Blender*^
Hyperthreading gain: 46.1 ÷ 40.1 = 15.0% gain
Module +1 core gain: 9.76 ÷ 7.16 = 36.3% gain

WinRAR^
Hyperthreading gain: 70.5 ÷ 59.6 = 18.3% gain
Module +1 core gain: 4467 ÷ 30.27 = 47.6% gain

* Numbers involved are small, margin of error is higher
^ Measurements seem to be different, or are in different units. Be careful when interpreting, since measured factor could be qualitatively different.


Attempt at analysis after some shuteye.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 05:05:31 PM by kureshii »

Offline TMRNetShark

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #151 on: October 16, 2011, 05:04:20 PM »
And in our tests intels hyperthreading actually is _more_ efficient at boosting performance than AMD:s "true core":s. That is the most suprising thing to me.
How was that test conducted? Do you have a link? I really am quite curious, because AMD’s been hyping their Bulldozer Module as a better-than-hyperthreading technology—on paper, of course. But like we’ve seen with the Pentium 4, theories don’t always work out as expected.

Google turns up no comparison of the sort, but looking at this image gives me an idea for how to go about doing this:

(click to show/hide)

Note that the point here is not to see how a quad-core, quad-module Bulldozer benchmarks against an i5, but to see how much of a performance gain hyperthreading gains for Sandy Bridge in various workloads, vs adding a second integer core in each Bulldozer module.

What use is this? It could help isolate Bulldozer’s bottlenecks in various workloads, particularly the single-threaded/lightly-threaded workloads. Those who have been convincingly bought over by AMD’s octo-core marketing might suddenly remember that the only truly separated resources in each module are the integer cores; both cores in each module still share the same fetch/decode units, as well as L2. The high latency of each cache, though necessary for AMD to achieve those high clock speeds, could adversely affect some memory-heavy benchmarks. The branch predictor is another possible bottleneck; Anand hypothesised this from the AIDA64 Queens benchmark, and it could potentially bottleneck other branch-heavy workloads as well.

My current thought is that the decode units might perhaps not be able to keep up both cores fully fed for light-compute workloads (where threads do not spend a lot of time in the integer execution units). Anandtech’s review has a comparison of decode capabilities of Thuban, FX and SB. This does not directly translate to raw instruction decode speed, but results from this test could help examine the results/implications of this change in decode resources, which could explain some of the discrepancies between Thuban and FX performance.

Add to this AMD’s claim that Windows 7’s scheduler is not optimised for a “non-uniform core architecture”, and you should be able to see how this experiment could lead to interesting results.

[edit] Some interesting results: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?275873-AMD-FX-quot-Bulldozer-quot-Review-%284%29-!exclusive!-Excuse-for-1-Threaded-Perf

It’s late and I’m tired, so comparisons with i5-vs-i7 will have to wait.

Is that what ASUS's BIOS look like? :O

Anyways, I read those results in your edit link... interesting to say the least. So instead of the X6 having an L2 cache for each core... they have 2 cores sharing the SAME L2 cache? The Bulldozer really just add 2 cores, combined cores and L2 caches, and split the L3 cache in to 4. It seems that all 8-cores makes a difference in those benchmarks though.

Offline kitamesume

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #152 on: October 16, 2011, 11:38:48 PM »
thats not good... the drop from performance from 4modules to 2modules is too linear, that would imply that a 2modules is exactly half of what the 4modules can do which puts it below i3 performance, and if you think about it, i3 can perform well under 50watts under load while the linear drop of the bulldozer would point the 2modules running at 50~watts under load.

PS: i3-2100 is approximately 35% slower than i5-2500K
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/288?vs=289

FX-8150 vs i3-2100
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/434?vs=289
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 11:53:54 PM by kitamesume »

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Offline mgz

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #153 on: October 17, 2011, 01:15:38 AM »
thats only because you are thinking in current terms and physical items.

As processors shrink heat output generally goes down and power consumption goes down while making a more powerful item as that continues to scale it becomes much more feasible to have what is seemingly unthinkable in a very short period of time.
Just read some shit ray kursweil or w/e writes more or less hes a futurist and inventor i dont care if i spelled his name right.
And just expects our technological advances to follow the same growth it has been for some time which means compared how far we went from the calculator power sofa sized computers to now in 50 years. Our components are tens of thousands times faster and more efficient, and so much fucking smaller.

So just slide the scale in your mind and think about that, and then apply that to a concept like integrated graphics and realize that graphics can only get so good with the type of viewing we currently use.

I just think there is something wrong with having a dedicated video card chipset on the same dye as the CPU. If it went in that direction, there would only be 8-10 different PC's because they all have the same "APUs". But like you said, the future only means you get more for less space. Then imagine what real dedicated cards will be like. You'll have 48-core GPUs which become the bases of the 1000's of shader/vector/whatever the fuck ATI/Nvidia call them... Graphics will be photo realistic and games like that Unreal tech demo would be like how Battlefield will look in 10 years. :P
The problem often becomes bottlenecks at some point in time the ability for the dedicated seperate videocard can process the information and do everything faster then it can communicate what its doing to the rest of the system. And around that point they become obsolete. Its like having a person go to your mailbox and get mail for you. At some point your mail just gets handed to you by the mail man and your like well wtf do i have that guy around for.

Not saying that we are near that point yet. But you understand the concept that at some point they will be 100% integrated just because it will be slower for it not to be.

Offline kureshii

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #154 on: October 17, 2011, 02:03:10 AM »
thats not good... the drop from performance from 4modules to 2modules is too linear, that would imply that a 2modules is exactly half of what the 4modules can do which puts it below i3 performance, and if you think about it, i3 can perform well under 50watts under load while the linear drop of the bulldozer would point the 2modules running at 50~watts under load.
You’re looking at it the wrong way. A linear “drop” in performance is good; it means when you buy 2 more cores (over a dual-core) you’re actually getting “two more cores worth of performance”, and it means you can get an almost linear scaling in performance by adding cores (until you start hitting other bottlenecks in the CPU).

Unfortunately, even in performance scaling, Intel ousts AMD when adding more cores/modules. Just see the difference in performance between an i3 vs an i7 (note that the i3 does not have Turbo, while the i7 turbos up to 3.5GHz with all four cores in use), and compare it with the gain from adding two more modules below.

I’m hesitant to compare the Blender scores, because as I’ve mentioned in my comparison the metric doesn’t seem to be the same. However, even accounting for the clock speed difference between i3 and i7, one can see that Cinebench R10 and x264 performance scales much more linearly with cores going from dual- to quad-core, than going from dual- to quad-module. (Readers might also notice that these two benchmarks are where FX-8150 did best, matching i7-2600K’s performance or coming really close).

Bulldozer does have Turbo as well, but considering that quad-module load pegs it at 3.9GHz while its max Turbo is 4.2GHz, I don’t think that is enough to explain the less-than-linear scaling. If AMD’s plan is to release huge, many-core processors, I sure hope that core scaling improves.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 02:06:01 AM by kureshii »

Offline iindigo

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #155 on: October 17, 2011, 02:22:01 AM »
If Bulldozer is any indication of AMD's future, Intel may remain dominant for several more generations. That's no good when looking at it from the perspective of competition pushing them, but it certainly makes CPU choice easy for me.


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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #156 on: October 17, 2011, 02:27:27 AM »
Holy fucking spirits batman... iindigo is alive!
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Offline TMRNetShark

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #157 on: October 17, 2011, 02:45:50 AM »
If Bulldozer is any indication of AMD's future, Intel may remain dominant for several more generations. That's no good when looking at it from the perspective of competition pushing them, but it certainly makes CPU choice easy for me.

Not necessarily. AMD could still have some group... just don't expect computer manufactures running to AMD anytime soon. Performance wise, they need to reclaim their $200-$300 segment with Bulldozer... but if they can't do that, then they are SOL.

Offline kitamesume

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #158 on: October 17, 2011, 04:31:46 AM »
If Bulldozer is any indication of AMD's future, Intel may remain dominant for several more generations. That's no good when looking at it from the perspective of competition pushing them, but it certainly makes CPU choice easy for me.

Not necessarily. AMD could still have some group... just don't expect computer manufactures running to AMD anytime soon. Performance wise, they need to reclaim their $200-$300 segment with Bulldozer... but if they can't do that, then they are SOL.

adjust that to 150-300$ because Llano still cant be compared to i3 in terms of performance, below 150$ is where Llano is worth it.

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Offline bloody000

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #159 on: October 17, 2011, 09:11:42 AM »
Holy fucking spirits batman... iindigo is alive!

I thought he got ***** by those tentacle monsters in Nihon.
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