Your view on AMD's Bulldozer

[iindigo]

If you think the Sandy-E CPUs make AMD look silly, just wait a few more months until Intel's Ivy Bridge CPUs are available... they're supposed to be a full 25% improvement of Sandy Bridge while consuming the same or less power.

[krumm]

Most people can care less about Sandy-E CPUs.  Just look at the price.  These kind of CPUs are not game changers until they use the new tech in low cost CPUs.  And from my understanding this CPU has no real new features.

[kureshii]

If you think the Sandy-E CPUs make AMD look silly, just wait a few more months until Intel's Ivy Bridge CPUs are available... they're supposed to be a full 25% improvement of Sandy Bridge while consuming the same or less power.

Actually no, the projected performance improvement is more in the range of 6–8% (putting together guesstimates from various sources), from latency improvements in the transition to 22nm as well as some architectural improvements that didn’t make it into Sandy Bridge in time. There’ll be 20% more transistors but die size will be smaller.

But lower TDP is true; there are rumours circulating that IB TDP will be in the 75W range. Awaiting confirmation from Intel. The quad-core mobile parts are confirmed to have 35W TDP though, down from 45W in Sandy Bridge mobile (and 55W in the Extreme offerings).

[ios]

well from wikipedia it stated that Ivy Bridge will have 20% more CPU performance than Sandy Bridge and 60% more GPU performance than Sandy Bridge -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Bridge#Ivy_Bridge_2

the 60% GPU performance alone will make me wait for this than AMD Trinity

and also the problem is the sockets, Intel Ivy Bridge will be compatible with existing Sandy Bridge socket (LGA 155)
so its more upgrade friendly than AMD which will replace FM1 with FMx socket next year

imo Intel is doing more better than AMD at the moment

[kureshii]

well from wikipedia it stated that Ivy Bridge will have 20% more CPU performance than Sandy Bridge and 60% more GPU performance than Sandy Bridge -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Bridge#Ivy_Bridge_2

Time to do some thinking then. The quoted source for Wikipedia is a VR-Zone article dated Feb 2011. The Anandtech article I linked is from Sep 2011, and if you read the article it even explains where its conservative estimate of “up to 10% improvement” comes from. Don’t blindly take Wikipedia at face value.

[ios]

@kureshii

nevertheless the 10% improvement your saying is only for the CPU part of Ivy Bridge the GPU performance and the power consumption efficiency and upgradability due to using LGA 155 as socket are tons better either from the old articles or newer articles

[krumm]

@kureshii

nevertheless the 10% improvement your saying is only for the CPU part of Ivy Bridge the GPU performance and the power consumption efficiency and upgradability due to using LGA 155 as socket are tons better either from the old articles or newer articles

The Socket you want to say is LGA1155 if I'm not mistaken.  And does it really matter that the GPU performance is 50% better, it still wont compete with ATIs.  Intel is catching up in features, but it is still not there and 50% will not do it.  The thing IB will do is lower power use and move to 22nm tech.  The upgrade ability is also questionable as you will probably want the new north bridge that goes with it.  The improvement to wait for from Intel is Haswell.

Also why are comparing LGA1155 to FM1.  FM1 may be AMDs offerings for IGP, but it is not there Mainstream Socket.  AMD seems to be a little lost at the moment, but I just hope they don't take ATI out.  When competition goes away, quality does as well.

[ios]

@krumm
as much as a like AMD to perform better in order for prices and computing technology to improve, i cannot recommend them at the moment, first of all they will change their socket again when AMD Trinity is out so if you got an FM1 socket it wont be upgradable you will have to change your mobo too, and personally i re-encode anime fansub/fanrips too but i do not have a lot of cash to buy quad core processors, so i ended up with Pentium G620 (a Pentium class Sandy Bridge) and i must say its a good balance for casual gaming and casual video encoding and also i will not have to buy a new mobo too since i can upgrade with Ivy Bridge since it uses LGA1155 too (thanks for correcting) and also looking at the power consumption of AMD APU's compare to Intel APU's at the moment its clear in terms of desktop Intel has more of an edge

and Haswell will be out sometime in 2013 that is still a long way to go i rather
wait for Rockwell because it will be in 14 nanometer manufacturing process if
i remember correctly

[Lupin]

The other thing is that AMD simply needs a better PR/marketing team.

If Charlie Demerjian is to be believed, PR got cut deep in the recent layoffs.

And does it really matter that the GPU performance is 50% better, it still wont compete with ATIs.

Intel has the money. It can do it.

Also why are comparing LGA1155 to FM1.  FM1 may be AMDs offerings for IGP, but it is not there Mainstream Socket.  AMD seems to be a little lost at the moment, but I just hope they don't take ATI out.  When competition goes away, quality does as well.

No. FMx is AMD's mainstream socket. BD is their "high end."

SB-E is a nice processor but the platform it's on (x79) sucks. There's no point going with the platform unless you're using a lot of multithreaded apps. People are better off stick with SB or waiting for IB. I also don't understand why Anand sees it as a bad thing that SB-E doesn't have quicksync.

[kureshii]

And does it really matter that the GPU performance is 50% better, it still wont compete with ATIs.

The scary thing is, they actually might. AMD may be king of dedicated graphics cards (or contending for it), but Intel is way ahead in power efficiency. IGPs are the great equaliser because AMD has to balance the IGP's TDP budget with the CPU's, and as we've seen from the Llano reviews, they had to leave quite a lot of CPU performance on the table so as to get GPU performance ahead of Intel's.

I'm not sure they'll be able to maintain that performance margin; as I've detailed in an earlier wall-of-text, in the past 2 architectural generations we've seen ATi/AMD go from resting on their laurels (790G vs X4500) to pulling out all stops on Llano (HD6550D vs HD3000). They have no more stops to pull now; the HD6000 series is their biggest, newest, latest gun. HD7000 isn't going to bring a huge increase in graphics performance, not within the same power envelope anyway. AMD's greatest hurdle in IGP now is power efficiency (of their CPU cores).

The thing about the IGP ladder is that an integrated graphics chip just has to be able to run a game on low-end settings at >30fps; it isn't a competition to see who can get the highest FPS. The HD3000 isn't quite there, but that 60% boost in performance brings it yet another step closer.

As a non-gamer myself I care for much more than simply raw performance though. VA-API's better-than-VDPAU performance, availability of triple-display capability on Ivy Bridge IGP, as well as superior ASIC video decoder already seal the deal for me. AMD still has quite a way to go to get Llano together. Again, raw performance isn't everything.

[krumm]

and Haswell will be out sometime in 2013 that is still a long way to go i rather
wait for Rockwell because it will be in 14 nanometer manufacturing process if
i remember correctly

I say wait for Haswell for the improvement because that is when we should get it.  If you have a SB I don't see the reason to move to IB.  But if you don't have SB that is the only reason to go to IB IMO.  The only people I can see upgrading between the 2 would be the ones that went cheep at SB to hold them off and the ones that always have the newest and greatest.

And does it really matter that the GPU performance is 50% better, it still wont compete with ATIs.

The scary thing is, they actually might. AMD may be king of dedicated graphics cards (or contending for it), but Intel is way ahead in power efficiency. IGPs are the great equaliser because AMD has to balance the IGP's TDP budget with the CPU's, and as we've seen from the Llano reviews, they had to leave quite a lot of CPU performance on the table so as to get GPU performance ahead of Intel's.

On to the Intel IGP.  I don't know much about the Haswell plans but at the rate Intels IGP has improved, this is when it will be caught up and probably surpass.


I recommend AMD all the time, BUT only when the feature set and cost are right for the person I'm recommending to.  Price per performance within a certain price range means everything.  I don't blindly buy based on name brands.  AMD may be losing in a lot of ranges, but not all.  One thing I always find funny is when someone trys to compare say a 150 dollar item with one that cost 200 and act like they cost the same, of coarse the 200 dollar item will be better(should be anyway). 

kinda off topic: I remember when I got my newest computer(~1.5 years) and kept getting told that I should have got this and that.  I was being told that I should have got parts for my computer that would have cost me 300 dollars more.

[kureshii]

Cruel, Techreport.

[AnimeJanai]

Since AMD doesn't have a niche product able to carry the company, there will be a point where if its market share drops below a certain value that it will no longer be able to have enough income to keep investing in the CPU arms race against Intel.  If Intel keeps this CPU edge over AMD, there will come the time that the general public stops thinking of AMD and Intel as competitors leap-frogging each other in performance.  If the public comes to believe that AMD is always behind, then that will be the end.  From what I know of the general public, they don't care about all these wheatstone, icy bridge, or drystone benchmarks.  It'll be just "Is Intel better than AMD?".   If AMD loses its leapfrogging reputation and becomes stereotyped as "not as good as Intel" then the market share will continue to erode to the point where local dealers stop stocking AMD motherboards in depth.  When that happens, only the AMD enthusiasts will keep buying AMD and what is that?  One percent of the market? 

Perhaps users will be more tolerant and simply say "AMD is good enough" and continue to buy AMD.  Maybe then AMD will have enough funds to compete.   How many times in the past 10 years has AMD had reductions in company size?   5 times?   I remember when they had to buckle under due to lack of funds and give up having their own fab labs in the nanometer wars. 

As for PR and advertising funding, that is important if the company is to get favorable articles in various magazines.  If you are not an advertiser, the magazine tends to ignore you even if you have great product.  That is their way of encouraging (greenmailing) you into buying more advertising or paying for junkets.  Money does slant articles, so if Intel is the only player, then expect the vast majority of press articles to be about Intel's great products with nary a word about AMD's products.

[Lupin]

Since AMD doesn't have a niche product able to carry the company

Niche products doesn't carry a company. Volume products does. Retail sales are already small compared to volume ones. Enthusiasts are an even tinier segment of retail. Even in this enthusiast segment, not everyone buys the niche product. A niche product may give the company more profit per sale but the number of sales is miniscule compared to a volume product will low profit per sale.

[nstgc]

If you read the entire post from Janai, you would see he was mostly talking about volume sales (% of the market).

[AnimeJanai]

Niche products doesn't carry a company. Volume products does. Retail sales are already small compared to volume ones.

The context was about economics and volume.  Some may assume the case of a company creating a niche product, but I was not talking about that.   There is the standard economics situation of a company's product, flagship or not, occupying a market niche.  That was what I was referring to by niche product.

AMD will eventually find more competitors from CPU companies created by other major countries that have military or commercial worries about Intel CPUs being able to be turned off involuntarily by remote control.  Those countries will have to control chip design and fabrication from beginning to end.  That is why China had embarked on an "independent" CPU development program about 8 years ago when the concept of CPUs being turned off by your military or embargo opponent reared its ugly head.  I wouldn't be surprised that China eventually manages to steal a complete design plan from either Intel or AMD.  Once it does that, it will have a competitive CPU for chinese motherboards that can be marketed for laptops and prepackaged PC workstations.  The threat of such a copied CPU would harm AMD more than Intel. 

[kureshii]

http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2011/11/bulldozer-server-benchmarks-are-here-and-theyre-a-catastrophe.ars

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5058/amds-opteron-interlagos-6200/5

Not a pretty picture all round, but at least they're still ahead in price/performance (if we set aside power consumption considerations).

[per]

Not a pretty picture all round, but at least they're still ahead in price/performance (if we set aside power consumption considerations).

Unfortunately, for any large server farm power usage is more important than the one-time purchasing cost.

[AnimeJanai]

The power issue multipled by the sheer numbers of processors sucking up power in the country makes you wonder if the EPA will regulate CPU power usage.  The EPA already regulates many other energy consuming devices right now.  Bush made the Energy Star less fashionable and I hope it makes a comeback in peoples' minds about its contribution to the health of the country.   Ah well, it's a futile wish anyways.  People don't care unless it hits their wallet.

* UPDATE *

. .

Next generation of XBOX to use AMD processor??: . . . . CLICK for News Story

BLACK FRIDAY BULLDOZER . . PRICING

[kitamesume]

cant wait to see those Xbox die out of power consumption, oh and i wonder what their sales would be for the next few months on their bulldozer segment.