Author Topic: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer  (Read 8467 times)

Offline Tatsujin

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #200 on: November 26, 2011, 03:43:53 AM »
cant wait to see those Xbox die out of power consumption, oh and i wonder what their sales would be for the next few months on their bulldozer segment.
I doubt Microsoft will repeat the same mistake they did with the 360 so I'm looking forward to their new Xbox machine, along with Sony's new PS machine.


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Offline kureshii

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #201 on: December 04, 2011, 05:53:21 AM »

Offline nstgc

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #202 on: December 04, 2011, 05:03:19 PM »
http://news.ati-forum.de/index.php/news/35-amd-prozessoren/2182-herstellung-der-phenom-ii-und-athlon-ii-prozessoren-mit-45nm-wird-eingestellt PhII/AthII production ceasing sometime soon, better grab fast.

They can't do much about compitition with Intel, but they can do something about compition from their own lines...sad...

Offline kureshii

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #203 on: December 04, 2011, 05:20:50 PM »
Speaking of competition with Intel, http://www.anandtech.com/show/5166/ivy-bridge-overview

Same performance at half the TDP; that’s a pretty scary gap.

Offline kitamesume

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #204 on: December 04, 2011, 07:56:27 PM »
and from the year 2012 and so on will lead to more electricity demand caused by AMD's bulldozer processors, heh.

have amd abandoned the word "green"?

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Offline nstgc

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #205 on: December 04, 2011, 09:24:00 PM »
and from the year 2012 and so on will lead to more electricity demand caused by AMD's bulldozer processors, heh.

have amd abandoned the word "green"?

Its not that they abandoned the word "green", just that they are trying very hard to hold on to the phrase "in business".

Offline AnimeJanai

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #206 on: December 11, 2011, 01:51:02 PM »
AMD would have to bite the bullet and license alternative 3D transistor technologies to compete with Intel's future 3D FinFET technology to have lower power usage in future CPUs.  Intel owns its own research FABs to perform hi-end technology research and potentially be a patent troll.  AMD gave up its FABs years ago as part of cost-cutting move.

AMD has some hope as Japanese companies Fujitsu and Suvolta have been developing competing technologies to counter Intel's 3D transistor which could revolutionize quite a few different integrated circuits other than CPUs.  I wouldn't expect Intel to license its 3D green tech to AMD.  It feels a little sad that the USA doesn't do much research in this area (outside of Intel); it's like Asia has most of the FABs and semiconductor manufacturing facilities.  The cost of living in the USA is substantially higher, and thus the costs of everything else must be scaled up according to that.  So semiconductor and instrument manufacturers that can be located in Asia will always beat out the USA on raw cost unless the buyers don't care about price.

The problem for AMD is that the japanese 3D transistor is horizontal while Intel is vertical.  As with hard drives platters and skyscraper buildings, vertical replaced horizontal as the method to increase density.  So, the AMD CPU made with japanese horizontal 3D transistors will always be physically bigger all other things being equal.

http://semiaccurate.com/2011/12/07/suvolta-details-aggressive-planar-transistor/   

Current price on AMD 8-core unlocked Bulldozer shown below:
« Last Edit: December 24, 2011, 10:39:06 PM by AnimeJanai »

Offline kitamesume

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #207 on: December 25, 2011, 05:16:52 PM »
any news if bulldozer still sucks? after months of it being released they should've found solutions on making bulldozer work better.

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Offline AnimeJanai

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #208 on: December 25, 2011, 10:20:28 PM »
any news if bulldozer still sucks? after months of it being released they should've found solutions on making bulldozer work better.

I don't think Bulldozer sucks.  8 cores for $199 or less sounds interesting.  It just happens to be slower and uses more power than the top of the line Intel chips.  But that doesn't mean it cannot do things faster that people currently do on their home and work PCs.  The way patents work, AMD may have had to use that approach because Intel has long been working upon scalable core processors up to the theoretical efficiency limit of 70 or however many that exact number is.  The other thing Intel has done is put out a huge number of patents on having scalable cores handle the graphics computing and automatically make use of more cores as needed. 

There's only so many innovative paths left to the second place maker when the first place holder has so many well-funded different approaches performing research and churning out patents.  If the second place company doesn't keep putting more money into R&D, it may find itself blocked off in the future with a completely plugged up dead end for its currently flawed approach of pairing "RISC style" and CISC cores with a shared cache between the two as a means of gaining operating efficiency power-wise. 

It's an interesting idea with potential to have the integer calculations steered to one core and the floating point operations steered to the other core, but it will also need the application to be compiled with that approach in mind.  Until that happens, benchmarks and the applications will perform better for Intel than it does for Bulldozer. 

Offline kitamesume

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #209 on: December 26, 2011, 07:34:40 AM »
^ to begin with, any people wouldn't need a rig much faster than an i3-2100 @ 125$ or an i5-2300 for 185$...
and these could run at H61 boards for like 60$...

or if you'd like a muuuuuuch cheaper quad then how about an Athlon II X4 for like 100$?
Edit: or a Phenom II X6 1055T for like 150$?

PS: theres only a handful of softwares that'll profit on all 8cores of that thing.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2011, 07:46:06 AM by kitamesume »

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Offline per

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #210 on: December 27, 2011, 07:42:26 AM »
^ to begin with, any people wouldn't need a rig much faster than an i3-2100 @ 125$ or an i5-2300 for 185$...
and these could run at H61 boards for like 60$...

or if you'd like a muuuuuuch cheaper quad then how about an Athlon II X4 for like 100$?
Edit: or a Phenom II X6 1055T for like 150$?

PS: theres only a handful of softwares that'll profit on all 8cores of that thing.

The performance of Bulldozer is not really the worst part, it is the performance/price and performance/watt ratios that are both a bit too low. A i5 2500K easily beat a bulldozer on both counts, and is faster in almost all applications as well.

The Phenom line is being discontinued (or, well, used to brand new bulldozer versions).
I guess AMD could not have them beating bulldozer in both performance and price in most applications.

And as for software, video recoding and compilation are two things that both use almost any number of cores.

Unfortunately the first suffers from the floating point performance of bulldozer, and the second from the cache/memory bandwidth-performance. So it is actually faster on a four-core intel CPU. And bulldozer does not have eigth full cores.
Quote
It's an interesting idea with potential to have the integer calculations steered to one core and the floating point operations steered to the other core, but it will also need the application to be compiled with that approach in mind.  Until that happens, benchmarks and the applications will perform better for Intel than it does for Bulldozer.

That is not how it works. There are eight integer/branch units, and four floating point units.

Every two integer cores shares a FPU. There is no way in the code to "steer" FPU code to a specific FPU unit, it always goes to the one connected to the core your code is running on. From the point of view of the code it is as if both integer units have an associated FPU unit. It is only that the FPU is running at half speed.

If you mean that you run all floating point math in one thread, and all integer math in an other, and then have them assigned to two different cores in the module this means that one core will run at full speed (the one doing the integer math) while the other will be mostly waiting for the FPU core (the one doing only FPU work).

You get the same effect with hyperthreading, where unused parts of the core can run instructions from another thread while it is waiting for FPU or memory fetches, thus giving a higher utilization of the core.

And if you do rewrite your applications to split out all FPU calculations to a separate thread (even if that is possible without nightmarish thread inter-dependencies) you will only get better performance if you do half as much FPU as ALU calculations.

That is probably only true for a small set of applications.

And in all likelihood, unless the instruction scheduler in the bulldozer module is really bad, you will actually get worse performance, since if you do not split the threads that way the cores will both do some integer math, and both do some FPU work, and probably spend less time total waiting (when core1 is doing FPU work, core2 might be doing integer math (or, well, it will be doing that or it will be waiting)).

This low FPU performance is an issue in desktop applications, since the most CPU intensive ones tend to do a lot of FPU calculations (games, video compression, image processing, sound processing etc).

The exception being 7zip. :)

For a server this might make sense, since they tend to have a more integer based workload.

However, this is not always the case. As an example the 8-core AMD server CPU:s performed worse than the 6-core intel (low-power, running at ~1Ghz lower frequency) for our workload. In fact, hyperthreading gave more of a performance boost than AMD dual-core-per-module threading.

And the intel parts use one sixth of the power to do the work. And costs about the same.

Offline kitamesume

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #211 on: December 27, 2011, 09:20:09 AM »
^ add in the fact that if the rig reaches kilowatts in power consumption(which are usually the case for stacked servers) being 25-75% more power efficient means 250-750watts less power consumption.
being power efficient also means less cooling problems, which also means the stock coolers would work even if its garbage, less total costs inshort.

Edit: can't really use the stock cooler of bulldozer when overclocking right? unlike intel's i5 could at least overclock to 4Ghz with stock cooler.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 09:23:57 AM by kitamesume »

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