Author Topic: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer  (Read 8485 times)

Offline kureshii

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #40 on: October 07, 2011, 04:22:36 PM »
Photos of slides leaked

Some of the slides in the link look pretty much like the ones that were leaked by donanimhaber a few weeks earlier:

http://www.donanimhaber.com/islemci/galerileri/AMD-Bulldozer-FX-resmi-test-sonuclari.htm

However, if you compare some of the identical slides from the two links, you will see differences that can be missed at first glance.

EDIT: It seems the first link in my post has the content removed, oh well. Got until Wednesday for hard numbers to come out.
A pity the presentation chose to make a strawman out of the 980X instead of making more sensible choices in hardware matchup … or perhaps that was entirely intentional. Too bad it only serves to lessen confidence.

5 more days to wait … it’s too late to hope for awesome hardware-based remote management, but at least AMD seems interested, just isn’t quite sure how to go about it.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2011, 05:25:07 PM by kureshii »

Offline nstgc

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #41 on: October 07, 2011, 09:30:19 PM »
I'm not fond of the idea of remotely managing my processor. Personally, I'd rather no one, myself included, be able to alter my CPU's and mainboard's settings without being in the BIOS.

Offline ColdFission

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #42 on: October 07, 2011, 10:05:57 PM »
Photos of slides leaked

Some of the slides in the link look pretty much like the ones that were leaked by donanimhaber a few weeks earlier:

http://www.donanimhaber.com/islemci/galerileri/AMD-Bulldozer-FX-resmi-test-sonuclari.htm

However, if you compare some of the identical slides from the two links, you will see differences that can be missed at first glance.

EDIT: It seems the first link in my post has the content removed, oh well. Got until Wednesday for hard numbers to come out.
A pity the presentation chose to make a strawman out of the 980X instead of making more sensible choices in hardware matchup … or perhaps that was entirely intentional. Too bad it only serves to lessen confidence.

5 more days to wait … it’s too late to hope for awesome hardware-based remote management, but at least AMD seems interested, just isn’t quite sure how to go about it.

Yeah, I thought the comparisons with the 980x to be pretty disingenuous when that slide compared platform value. If they used the 2600K in the platform comparison, thing would looks a lot different and would probably put the FX-8150 in not so bright a light.

A Preview/Review from Lab501. Do note that this review came out before the expected official launch of October 12th so do take this review with a grain of salt.


Video review (Link below has another link to said video but also has screens from it in case you don't want to watch it):
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2197362
« Last Edit: October 10, 2011, 01:29:01 AM by ColdFission »

Offline kureshii

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2011, 05:57:57 AM »
2 days before launch and already NDAs being broken huh~

I still await final confirmation on the 12th, but when none of these ‘leaks’ put Bulldozer in a good light, I can’t help but shake my head and remember Phenom.

Offline nstgc

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2011, 02:22:53 PM »
I still await final confirmation on the 12th, but when none of these ‘leaks’ put Bulldozer in a good light, I can’t help but shake my head and remember Phenom.

Yeah. I'll probably replace my current CPu/mobo with an AMD equivilent in a year or two. They will have worked the bugs out, gotten the clock up, and it will be worth it at that point.

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Offline kitamesume

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #46 on: October 12, 2011, 12:36:18 AM »
more benches http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=352045

i`m kind of disappointed though, well, until the official price gets posted i still got my interests up =P
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 12:38:02 AM by kitamesume »

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Offline kureshii

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Offline kureshii

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #49 on: October 12, 2011, 03:58:37 AM »
First review (from my usual reads) up on bit-tech.

Opinions to follow, once I'm done sneaking mini-reads at work.

[edit] What's there to say ... Bulldozer simply doesn't seem to be intended for the desktop market. The older X6 manages to beat it in lightly-threaded benchmarks such as Gimp, while Bulldozer only shows its prowess in more heavily multithreaded applications (which does not include gaming btw) — provided you hide the i5 and i7 scores.

Price-wise Bulldozer doesn't make a very pleasing proposition either. Despite the $200+ price tag on the processor, 9-series AM3+ boards start at $95 on Newegg.

For gaming, an i3 build would be cheaper, while an i5 build would be a better all-rounder with a slightly higher price tag. Bulldozer's advantage comes with its ability to pull off quad-SLI on the 990FX boards, but we're no longer looking at a budget gaming build then.

For encoding, an i5 build is faster, uses less power and is easier to overclock. Price would be largely dependent on other peripherals, but the processor itself is about the same price anyway, give or take $20.

If you must get an AMD/budget build, go with the X6 1100T for better value-for-money.

These tentative conclusions await confirmation from other reviews.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 10:06:55 AM by kureshii »

Offline ColdFission

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #50 on: October 12, 2011, 04:28:44 AM »
Quickly read the conclusion from bit-tech (great UK publication too) and they don't hold back.

Quote
The final grievance is the price of the FX-8150 – at £205 it’s £37 more expensive than a Core i5-2500K and only £40 cheaper than a Core i7-2600K. It fails to outperform either conclusively, with only some victories over the quad-core i5-2500K in some heavily multi-threaded tasks. But if you’re after multi-threaded performance, the £40 extra for a Core i7-2600K is more than justified. Perhaps the 6- and 4-core flavours of the FX will prove interesting upgrades, but the FX-8150 definitely isn’t.

We therefore feel totally vindicated that at no point did we recommend any bit-tech reader to buy a Socket AM3+ motherboard ‘to get ready for Bulldozer.’ We merely reviewed these boards on the premise that they were new and that people might wish to buy one as an upgrade for a Phenom II system – we had no idea whether Bulldozer would be good, bad or indifferent, so we urged caution. Turns out we were right: the FX-8150 is a stinker.


The overall feeling from various sites is that, it just sucks. This isn't the Intel killer like the FX-57 was all those years ago that many in the AMD fanbase were hoping for. Personally, AMD needed a win not just for it appearance in the desktop market but for financial reasons. I stresses in my OP post that AMD can't screw up like they did with Barcelona. Well, looks like they pulled another "Barcelona" and crapped all over themselves. However, I suspect that Bulldozer variants known as Interlagos and Valencia, the server parts, will do very well in those markets. Running hundreds or even thousands of VMs, running apps that spit out hundreds or thousands of threads 24/7, HPC apps, etc should make the server parts shine.

I guess what people forget is that Bulldozer was and is a server orientated part first, desktop part a very far second. And no one can really fault AMD for that thinking because the server market is a place with high margins and this where AMD needs to make some wins here. As for the desktop front, I never thought the Bulldozer was going to be the Intel killer. In my OP, I did say:

Quote
Well, as for my personal view on how it will perform for the desktop side of things, I think it will just do fine competing with Intel's current offerings. Is it going to be like the old FX in the Athlon 64 days? No, I don't really think so. I mean, this was supposed to be released back in late summer but was delayed and delayed. Previous rumours suggested a September 19 launch but that has come and gone. There have been issues with the brand new 32nm process from GlobalFoundries (where the Bulldozer chips are made, AMD is a fabless company in which they just send their designs to them, a point I forgot to mention earlier on) so it may impact performance expectations.

But, there is still light at the tunnel and has been mentioned already and its Trinity. Again, Trinity will be their new Fusion APU combining AMD's Piledriver architecture (Bulldozer "enhanced") and their new graphics architecture known as GCN (Graphics Core Next) which will also be used in their upcoming HD 7000 series. In my view, this will do very well in the mobile as well as in the mainstream desktop markets as this will provide more than enough CPU grunt for most people and as well as more than enough GPU power to playback HD films and play some games.

Overall, I think AMD is going to do the same process like they did with the first Phenoms. As time went on, they released revised steppings that lead to the Phenom IIs which performed quite well for their targeted markets and were much faster than the first Phenoms. So, expect newer steppings to come early next year, they will be better but I don't think it can wipe the tarnish of this very poor launch.

Offline kureshii

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #51 on: October 12, 2011, 04:41:28 AM »
ColdFission: Not really. Don't expect Trinity to turn things around for AMD either. Although it will hopefully keep them in business for the time being.

For one, Trinity will only have 4 Piledriver cores (2 modules), which they claim will get a 10% per-core performance improvement over the Zambezi cores. That's still pretty disappointing performance.

For another, GCN isn't going to appear in 7-series Radeons. It's not even mentioned on their roadmap, which stretches to 2012, which means we'll see it in 2013 at the earliest.

Only thing to look forward to now is Opteron server benchmarks and see if it justifies the poor desktop performance.

Offline ColdFission

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #52 on: October 12, 2011, 05:17:18 AM »
ColdFission: Not really. Don't expect Trinity to turn things around for AMD either. Although it will hopefully keep them in business for the time being.

For one, Trinity will only have 4 Piledriver cores (2 modules), which they claim will get a 10% per-core performance improvement over the Zambezi cores. That's still pretty disappointing performance.

For another, GCN isn't going to appear in 7-series Radeons. It's not even mentioned on their roadmap, which stretches to 2012, which means we'll see it in 2013 at the earliest.

Only thing to look forward to now is Opteron server benchmarks and see if it justifies the poor desktop performance.

Well, I do see Trinity as more of a success than failure as it will provide more than enough CPU resources for a majority of people for their daily tasks. Sure, it won't all the benchmarks, but fused with a great GPU architecture, will spare the regular user from investing in purchasing a graphics card. Trinity won't be targeting the enthusiast or the gamer, but the majority (where AMD is should make the most money from) who are people who like to play games on occasion, e-mail, word processing, like to watch a lot of HD content, web browsing, etc. From what I read from the mobile Llano reviews, many of them were positive pointing the great graphics performance for a mobile platform compared to what Intel has for their GPU. Llano is slower on the CPU side, then again, more than fast enough for a majority of users out there. As for the 10% performance increase, IIRC, that was a slide from here:

FX Next

As for GCN, there were some articles that I have come across saying that the HD 7000s will use GCN (I know there are no roadmaps out there right now detailing that).

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/graphics/display/20111007144928_AMD_Demos_28nm_Graphics_Solutions_Again.html

Quote
The 28nm generation of AMD's graphics processors will be rather broad. In fact, it is rumoured that even within Southern Islands family there will be chips with VLIW4 architecture as well as more progressive so-called GCN (graphics core next) architecture.

http://semiaccurate.com/2011/08/30/trinity-rumors-confirmed-gpu-speeds-and-more/

Quote
hat leaves the GPU. If you notice, the GPU is listed as HD7000, aka Graphics Core Next (GCN), aka Southern Islands. That means going from VLIW5 to scalar + VLIW4, whatever the code word for that is. In any case, going from 80 ‘old’ clusters (400 shaders) to 120 ‘new’ (480) clusters is where the majority of the 50% comes from. Throw in an updated memory controller, tighter integration between the sides, and you have not only more speed, but much more exploitable speed.

Well, I (and maybe these articles) could be wrong anyway as no of this information is official. Anandtech remarks that GCN won't be used with the next-generation of APUs:

Anandtech

Quote
Because of this need to inform developers of the hardware well in advance, while we’ve had a chance to see the fundamentals of GCN products using it are still some time off. At no point has AMD specified when a GPU will appear using GCN will appear, so it’s very much a guessing game. What we know for a fact is that Trinity – the 2012 Bulldozer APU – will not use GCN, it will be based on Cayman’s VLIW4 architecture. Because Trinity will be VLIW4, it’s likely-to-certain that AMD will have midrange and low-end video cards using VLIW4 because of the importance they place on being able to Crossfire with the APU. Does this mean AMD will do another split launch, with high-end parts using one architecture while everything else is a generation behind? It’s possible, but we wouldn’t make at bets at this point in time. Certainly it looks like it will be 2013 before GCN has a chance to become a top-to-bottom architecture, so the question is what the top discrete GPU will be for AMD by the start of 2012.

With, this quote, you would be correct. But again, none of the information about Trinity or the upcoming HD 7000s series is official. However, AMD did do a Fusion Developer's Summit trying to push their APUs to devs and showing how much better their programs and what not would run on AMD APUs (its a really crappy description, but that's the gist of it) because of the highly parallel side of the GPU. IIRC, it also introduced GCN in that summit. To me at least, it would make sense to pair GCN with Trinity. But again, its just speculation on my part.

Anyway, I think I'll be going Intel (again) for my next PC overhaul that I hope to do early next year.

Offline nstgc

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #53 on: October 12, 2011, 07:15:38 AM »
Bulldozer failed to hit the mark (I'd call it "crash and burn personaly")

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/amd-fx-8150.html

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #54 on: October 12, 2011, 07:21:20 AM »
After going through several reviews, personal frequents, all I can say is I am disappointed.
I thought I can get something nice maybe by Christmas but sadly, will have to wait for IVY.
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Offline ColdFission

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #55 on: October 12, 2011, 07:24:49 AM »
Bulldozer failed to hit the mark (I'd call it "crash and burn personaly")

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/amd-fx-8150.html

That is pretty much the overall feel from these reviews. AMD brought back the FX brand and that lead to failed management of expectations as the FX brand represented the best of AMD; the gamer's brand, the enthusiast's brand. After years of development, design, and engineering, AMD has brought a chip to market with similar performance of their previous Phenom II x6 lineup and that's really just sad in my view. In the anandtech review, it mentions that IPC went down compared to the previous lineup. Also in that review, Bulldozer weighs in at 2 Billion transistors with a 315 mm^2 die size vs Sandy Bridge's 996 Million transistors with a 216 mm^2 die size WITH their GPU on the same silicon. In my view, this is worse than the Barcelona launch. At least the Barcelona processors had faster performance compared to its predecessors.


Offline kureshii

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #56 on: October 12, 2011, 07:29:40 AM »
Everything that mentions GCN with HD7000 is listed as a rumour. Considering the recent spate of rumours surrounding AMD, I am going to err on the safe side and assume GCN won't be here until at least 2013.

If it sounds like I'm being harsh on AMD (or perhaps even being an Intel fanboy), let me say that I was just as harsh on Intel's P4 (on which I'm typing this post at work), and I see no reason why I should hold back on Bulldozer when it is just as callous with expectations.

Just saw Anandtech's review, which puts Bulldozer in a better light: at least Bulldozer seems to bump shoulders with i7-2600K in heavily threaded benchmarks (Cinebench, x264), and synthetic benchmarks (7-zip MIPS). Curiously Anandtech didn't run their real-world 7zip benchmark (in MB/s instead of MIPS) in this review, so we won't know what that gap in MIPS performance translates to in real-world performance.

Unfortunately, I still don't see Bulldozer as a value proposition, for a few reasons. Although the CPU itself is cheaper than an i7-2600K, the 9-series motherboards start at $95 for 970 chipset, and $150 for 990FX. The H67 series start at $50. Both are overpriced for their featureset, considering the H67 is really just a southbridge and the 9-series series is almost exactly the same as the 8-series, only with AM3+ support. The 9-series chief advantage is its 32X lanes of PCIe, which few will ever put to good use.

From benchmarks we've seen so far, Bulldozer would make a good small-scale compute processor for the price, especially coupled with a few GPUs to make use of those PCIe lanes. However, for general use a Sandy Bridge i5 still looks like a much better build for the money. Perhaps if Bulldozer prices drop to match the i5, and AMD releases cheaper version of the 9-series chipset ... but meanwhile, those looking for better value for money should just go with an X6 build.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 07:31:31 AM by kureshii »

Offline nstgc

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #57 on: October 12, 2011, 07:33:03 AM »
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 07:47:52 AM by nstgc »

Offline ColdFission

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #58 on: October 12, 2011, 07:48:01 AM »
Everything that mentions GCN with HD7000 is listed as a rumour. Considering the recent spate of rumours surrounding AMD, I am going to err on the safe side and assume GCN won't be here until at least 2013.

If it sounds like I'm being harsh on AMD (or perhaps even being an Intel fanboy), let me say that I was just as harsh on Intel's P4 (on which I'm typing this post at work), and I see no reason why I should hold back on Bulldozer when it is just as callous with expectations.

Just saw Anandtech's review, which puts Bulldozer in a better light: at least Bulldozer seems to bump shoulders with i7-2600K in heavily threaded benchmarks (Cinebench, x264), and synthetic benchmarks (7-zip MIPS). Curiously Anandtech didn't run their real-world 7zip benchmark (in MB/s instead of MIPS) in this review, so we won't know what that gap in MIPS performance translates to in real-world performance.

Unfortunately, I still don't see Bulldozer as a value proposition, for a few reasons. Although the CPU itself is cheaper than an i7-2600K, the 9-series motherboards start at $95 for 970 chipset, and $150 for 990FX. The H67 series start at $50. Both are overpriced for their featureset, considering the H67 is really just a southbridge and the 9-series series is almost exactly the same as the 8-series, only with AM3+ support. The 9-series chief advantage is its 32X lanes of PCIe, which few will ever put to good use.

From benchmarks we've seen so far, Bulldozer would make a good small-scale compute processor for the price, especially coupled with a few GPUs to make use of those PCIe lanes. However, for general use a Sandy Bridge i5 still looks like a much better build for the money. Perhaps if Bulldozer prices drop to match the i5, and AMD releases cheaper version of the 9-series chipset ... but meanwhile, those looking for better value for money should just go with an X6 build.

I personally think you have the right to be harsh on AMD, maybe even more so. It doesn't make you an Intel fanboy at all, I see it as you and me and others wanting AMD to actually COMPETE and not follow. So, don't hold back.

And because of the reviews, Intel will have no incentive to drop prices on its CPUs, which would have been great if that did happen if only Bulldozer actually competed.

I do agree that I can't see great value with Bulldozer. It performs equal to or greater than a 1100T (but again, anandtech points out the IPC actually went down) but being more expensive and sucks in more power.

I can't wait to do a system overhaul from my current system to either a 2500K or a 2600K, depending on the pricing next year.

Offline kitamesume

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Re: Your view on AMD's Bulldozer
« Reply #59 on: October 12, 2011, 09:29:12 AM »
!
yea i didnt notice it was the same benches... bah.

i want a 2core... er... 2module/4core review, not some funny 4core... er... 4module/8core fail(?).

well its still be useless on making a budget rig based on bulldozer because of the prices of the motherboards XD
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 09:44:05 AM by kitamesume »

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