Author Topic: Pop Artists Are Made Obsolete  (Read 2048 times)

Offline AceD

  • Member
  • Posts: 2665
    • Facebook
Re: Pop Artists Are Made Obsolete
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2011, 12:10:43 AM »
I was expecting this to be a necro thread lol

Offline lapa321

  • Member
  • Posts: 567
Re: Pop Artists Are Made Obsolete
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2011, 12:10:50 AM »
tbh Japan is probably going to lead the way. They're the furthest with the vocaloid technology
Japanese has something like half the sounds that are used in english, so it stands to reason that it is easier to synthesise.

How does Hiragana or Katakana compare to written English? I'm not too familiar with japanese language but AFAIK, they can write things as they're spoken, but my own understanding of english makes a lot of exception to how words are pronounced. 'u' is pronounced 'you', but in 'umbrella' it's pronounced 'ah'. Each letter needs its own context library and that may be a reason why this isn't as readily researched in english even tho it's a more commonly spoken language.
i believe you meant "uh" for umbrela "ah" would be for like amen but maybe ive got my phonetic breakdowns of vocal sounds mixed up

Amen would be "ey"-men. We locally pronounce it as "ah"-men, but then our language is also phonetically based (Say it as you read it). Latins (or atleast the prayers, and the priests) pronounce them the same. But if it was spoken by an american it's "ey"-men.

Thinking it over, i recall needing to add weird symbols in text to speech engines to make them pronounce works properly. Straight english is incomprehensible when spoken by a computer.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 12:18:53 AM by lapa321 »

Offline Soryon

  • Member
  • Posts: 6561
Re: Pop Artists Are Made Obsolete
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2011, 12:18:26 AM »
tbh Japan is probably going to lead the way. They're the furthest with the vocaloid technology
Japanese has something like half the sounds that are used in english, so it stands to reason that it is easier to synthesise.

How does Hiragana or Katakana compare to written English? I'm not too familiar with japanese language but AFAIK, they can write things as they're spoken, but my own understanding of english makes a lot of exception to how words are pronounced. 'u' is pronounced 'you', but in 'umbrella' it's pronounced 'ah'. Each letter needs its own context library and that may be a reason why this isn't as readily researched in english even tho it's a more commonly spoken language.
i believe you meant "uh" for umbrela "ah" would be for like amen but maybe ive got my phonetic breakdowns of vocal sounds mixed up

Amen would be ey-men.
Some people pronounce it "ahmen" depending where you go, but whatever.
As far as the umbrella thing, there is no sound for "uh" in kana so the closest they can get would be to start with the "ah" sound or ア.

But then again they prolly wouldnt bother because there is a kanji for umbrella in the first place.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 12:24:33 AM by Soryon »

Offline lapa321

  • Member
  • Posts: 567
Re: Pop Artists Are Made Obsolete
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2011, 12:23:40 AM »
Some people pronounce it "ahmen" but whatever.
As far as the umbrella thing, there is no sound for "uh" in kana so the closest they can get would be to start with the "ah" sound or ア.

I guess it's more apparent when your native language, which is phonetic, is read by an american, who then instinctively tries to apply his american pronounciation rules on what should be a straightforward reading.

Offline Soryon

  • Member
  • Posts: 6561
Re: Pop Artists Are Made Obsolete
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2011, 12:26:49 AM »
Some people pronounce it "ahmen" but whatever.
As far as the umbrella thing, there is no sound for "uh" in kana so the closest they can get would be to start with the "ah" sound or ア.

I guess it's more apparent when your native language, which is phonetic, is read by an american, who then instinctively tries to apply his american pronounciation rules on what should be a straightforward reading.
Inside of America I have heard it pronounced both ways.

Offline lapa321

  • Member
  • Posts: 567
Re: Pop Artists Are Made Obsolete
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2011, 12:30:07 AM »
Inside of America I have heard it pronounced both ways.

Why is the 'u' in umbrella pronouced differently from universe?

Offline Soryon

  • Member
  • Posts: 6561
Re: Pop Artists Are Made Obsolete
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2011, 12:35:04 AM »
Inside of America I have heard it pronounced both ways.

Why is the 'u' in umbrella pronouced differently from universe?
Because of the e's I would imagine. Like with almost any other word, the E will change the sound of preceding vowels. ace / act kinda thing.
Or just because language is not always straight forward.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 12:37:06 AM by Soryon »

Offline lapa321

  • Member
  • Posts: 567
Re: Pop Artists Are Made Obsolete
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2011, 12:42:08 AM »
Because of the e's I would imagine. Like with almost any other word, the E will change the sound of preceding vowels. ace / act kinda thing.
Or just because language is not always straight forward.

Agreed, there's just too many contextual rules in english. The lack of consistency is what makes it harder for machines to pronounce.

Offline lapa321

  • Member
  • Posts: 567
Re: Pop Artists Are Made Obsolete
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2011, 12:50:04 AM »
Googled phonetics and found this

Quote
Eye have a spelling chequer,
It came with my pea sea.
It plainly marques four my revue
Miss Steaks eye kin knot sea.
Eye strike a key and type a word
and weight four it two say
Weather Eye am wrong oar write
It shows me strait a weigh.
As soon as a mist ache is maid,
It nose bee fore two long,
And Eye can put the error rite -
Its rare lea ever wrong.
Eye have run this poem threw it
I am shore your pleased two no,
Its letter perfect awl the weigh.
My spell chequer tolled me sew.

Anybody with a text-to-speech engine on hand? ;D

Offline Ultra_Magnus

  • Member
  • Posts: 281
  • Sieg zeon!
Re: Pop Artists Are Made Obsolete
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2011, 05:37:51 AM »
tbh Japan is probably going to lead the way. They're the furthest with the vocaloid technology
Japanese has something like half the sounds that are used in english, so it stands to reason that it is easier to synthesise.

How does Hiragana or Katakana compare to written English? I'm not too familiar with japanese language but AFAIK, they can write things as they're spoken, but my own understanding of english makes a lot of exception to how words are pronounced. 'u' is pronounced 'you', but in 'umbrella' it's pronounced 'ah'. Each letter needs its own context library and that may be a reason why this isn't as readily researched in english even tho it's a more commonly spoken language.
That is how I understand it too, phonetically Japanese is a very simple language.

Offline Freedom Kira

  • Member
  • Posts: 4324
  • Rawr™.
Re: Pop Artists Are Made Obsolete
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2011, 06:12:39 AM »
Why is the 'u' in umbrella pronouced differently from universe?

Prefix "um" vs. "uni."

Ever try reading it "you-mbrella" or "un-iverse"? It sounds stupid.

That is how I understand it too, phonetically Japanese is a very simple language.

Werd. There is no universally accepted phonetic system in English like there is in Japanese (even if there is, or if one was introduced, it's not currently taught, so it'd take years to integrate one). We have the alphabet, but unlike Japanese, each letter is not restricted to a particular sound.

Offline xShadow

  • Member
  • Posts: 1503
  • No
Re: Pop Artists Are Made Obsolete
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2011, 10:56:57 PM »
Googled phonetics and found this

Quote
Eye have a spelling chequer,
It came with my pea sea.
It plainly marques four my revue
Miss Steaks eye kin knot sea.
Eye strike a key and type a word
and weight four it two say
Weather Eye am wrong oar write
It shows me strait a weigh.
As soon as a mist ache is maid,
It nose bee fore two long,
And Eye can put the error rite -
Its rare lea ever wrong.
Eye have run this poem threw it
I am shore your pleased two no,
Its letter perfect awl the weigh.
My spell chequer tolled me sew.

Anybody with a text-to-speech engine on hand? ;D

Wasn't hard to read at all, to be honest. Just read each word for its sound, not meaning.

Why is the 'u' in umbrella pronouced differently from universe?

Prefix "um" vs. "uni."

There are also words like "unintended", or "uninterrupted"... but in those cases the prefix is actually "un". It just runs into the actual word to make it look like "uni" could be the prefix (at least to a program... for humans it's kind of obvious). Another wonderful complication of the English language.

As for "um", it's an outdated prefix. Not that many words at all starting with it (many are spinoffs of one main word)

Quote
Werd. There is no universally accepted phonetic system in English like there is in Japanese (even if there is, or if one was introduced, it's not currently taught, so it'd take years to integrate one). We have the alphabet, but unlike Japanese, each letter is not restricted to a particular sound.

On the other hand, we don't have to make up retardedly large (multiple) alphabets in order encompass every possible sound. English is much more simple in a lot of other ways. So is Russian (probably... I wouldn't know about learning it, I was just born there). This probably makes English much less daunting to learn (not to mention no Kanji).
(click to show/hide)

Cute, huh?

Offline mgz

  • Box Fansubs
  • Member
  • Posts: 10561
Re: Pop Artists Are Made Obsolete
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2011, 11:10:06 PM »
Some people pronounce it "ahmen" but whatever.
As far as the umbrella thing, there is no sound for "uh" in kana so the closest they can get would be to start with the "ah" sound or ア.

I guess it's more apparent when your native language, which is phonetic, is read by an american, who then instinctively tries to apply his american pronounciation rules on what should be a straightforward reading.
Inside of America I have heard it pronounced both ways.
yea cuz im american and live in jersey everyone i know says it like ah men crazy black people say EY MEN

Offline Freedom Kira

  • Member
  • Posts: 4324
  • Rawr™.
Re: Pop Artists Are Made Obsolete
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2011, 11:58:04 PM »
On the other hand, we don't have to make up retardedly large (multiple) alphabets in order encompass every possible sound. English is much more simple in a lot of other ways. So is Russian (probably... I wouldn't know about learning it, I was just born there). This probably makes English much less daunting to learn (not to mention no Kanji).
(click to show/hide)

That makes English relatively simple to learn, yes, but it also makes it difficult to make a speech program because some letters have so many different possible sounds. Having a separate symbol for every sound makes the alphabet huge, but also removes the ambiguity that programmers have to deal with.

(click to show/hide)

Offline lapa321

  • Member
  • Posts: 567
Re: Pop Artists Are Made Obsolete
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2011, 01:54:45 AM »
Googled phonetics and found this

Quote
Eye have a spelling chequer,
It came with my pea sea.
It plainly marques four my revue
Miss Steaks eye kin knot sea.
Eye strike a key and type a word
and weight four it two say
Weather Eye am wrong oar write
It shows me strait a weigh.
As soon as a mist ache is maid,
It nose bee fore two long,
And Eye can put the error rite -
Its rare lea ever wrong.
Eye have run this poem threw it
I am shore your pleased two no,
Its letter perfect awl the weigh.
My spell chequer tolled me sew.

Anybody with a text-to-speech engine on hand? ;D

Wasn't hard to read at all, to be honest. Just read each word for its sound, not meaning.


Actually, i was wondering which one will sound closer to actual speech when put through a synthesizer. Does 'threw' sound closer to 'through' when actually spoken? I do know if you want a computer to say 'Colonel' (military) you'll have to put in 'kernel' (corn) :P

Also, i just realized door is not pronounced the same way as moon, if i were to spell, it would probably be dore. ;D
« Last Edit: October 22, 2011, 01:58:57 AM by lapa321 »

Offline Soryon

  • Member
  • Posts: 6561
Re: Pop Artists Are Made Obsolete
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2011, 02:00:32 AM »
Some people pronounce it "ahmen" but whatever.
As far as the umbrella thing, there is no sound for "uh" in kana so the closest they can get would be to start with the "ah" sound or ア.

I guess it's more apparent when your native language, which is phonetic, is read by an american, who then instinctively tries to apply his american pronounciation rules on what should be a straightforward reading.
Inside of America I have heard it pronounced both ways.
yea cuz im american and live in jersey
Im so sorry for you.
'
But no- I grew up going to church and I heard it pronounced differently just depending on who the preacher was that day.

Offline mgz

  • Box Fansubs
  • Member
  • Posts: 10561
Re: Pop Artists Are Made Obsolete
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2011, 08:46:19 PM »
Some people pronounce it "ahmen" but whatever.
As far as the umbrella thing, there is no sound for "uh" in kana so the closest they can get would be to start with the "ah" sound or ア.

I guess it's more apparent when your native language, which is phonetic, is read by an american, who then instinctively tries to apply his american pronounciation rules on what should be a straightforward reading.
Inside of America I have heard it pronounced both ways.
yea cuz im american and live in jersey
Im so sorry for you.
'
But no- I grew up going to church and I heard it pronounced differently just depending on who the preacher was that day.
dont know why you would feel sorry for me jersey is nothing but fucking awesome
and as dirty as our beaches are they wont give you hepatitis like some on the west coast

Online Bob2004

  • Member
  • Posts: 2562
Re: Pop Artists Are Made Obsolete
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2011, 05:21:07 PM »
Quote
Werd. There is no universally accepted phonetic system in English like there is in Japanese (even if there is, or if one was introduced, it's not currently taught, so it'd take years to integrate one). We have the alphabet, but unlike Japanese, each letter is not restricted to a particular sound.

On the other hand, we don't have to make up retardedly large (multiple) alphabets in order encompass every possible sound. English is much more simple in a lot of other ways. So is Russian (probably... I wouldn't know about learning it, I was just born there). This probably makes English much less daunting to learn (not to mention no Kanji).
(click to show/hide)

Japanese is actually really simple, it's just different. It's actually completely phonetic - so one set of sounds (46, I think?), which are always pronounced the same way, and always written the same way - If you see a word written in the basic Japanese alphabet, you can immediately see how to pronounce it, unlike English.

The grammar is very logical, with relatively straightforward rules, and few exceptions. Japanese only has four irregular verbs, for example, whereas English has more irregular verbs than regular. The only complicated bit is the kanji (and admittedly they are very complicated), but they're more like another layer on top of the actual language, so don't really have any effect on grammar etc as such.

The bit about not clearly stating the noun etc is also really simple: if it's already understood what you're talking about, you don't need to say it. So if you're talking about something, and the person you're talking to knows what you're talking about, you don't need to include it in every sentence, unlike English.

The only complicated thing about Japanese is the kanji. If it wasn't for those, Japanese would be one of the easiest languages in the world to learn imo.

Anyway, on topic: I listened to that Hatsune Miku video in the OP, and frankly was not impressed. You can immediately hear it's a synthesiser, it even has occasional noticeable glitches when changing pitch etc. There's no way that will be replacing real vocalists any time soon. Honestly, it's a bit disappointing; Japanese should be really easy to synthesise (since it has such a small set of potential sounds), so I expected better, really. Maybe some of the other vocaloids are better, but I can't see what all the fuss is about.

That Kashiwa Daisuke track rosstheferret linked, on the other hand, is really amazing. It's been a long time since I've heard an instrumental track that good.

Offline rostheferret

  • Member
  • Posts: 1584
Re: Pop Artists Are Made Obsolete
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2011, 06:11:43 PM »
That Kashiwa Daisuke track rosstheferret linked, on the other hand, is really amazing. It's been a long time since I've heard an instrumental track that good.

Yes! Another convert! :P

I do think it'll be a matter of time. All that's left is for technology to get more powerful, first to institute the natural noise variations within a voice, and add a sort of "glitch" element to re-add that human inconsistency. Once the first vocaloids start doing that it'll only be a matter of time before it becomes more automated. That's essentially all that auto-tuning does anyway; it removes the subtle variations that naturally occur in the human voice to deliver something closer to a pitch perfect recording. It's perhaps still a way off though, but what can be done using MIDI sampling these days is mind boggling.

Offline lapa321

  • Member
  • Posts: 567
Re: Pop Artists Are Made Obsolete
« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2011, 03:14:00 AM »
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 03:21:51 AM by lapa321 »