Author Topic: The General Chit Chat Thread 2  (Read 390192 times)

Offline Saras

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread 2
« Reply #8680 on: May 01, 2012, 07:34:31 AM »
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They're banned not because they give you a good high, but because the people that "liked to chop on bricks" did a lot of shit that interfered with the lives of other people.

The UN list of drugs isn't a list of substances that make you high. It's a list of substances found in problems. Which is also the reason why there are still a lot of "legal" drugs. All it means is that the people taking them haven't gotten the people who don't serious problems.

I doubt that a joint is going to do more damage to your body than a light punch to the gut. But junkies are a major problem to the people living around them and that is why drugs are illegal.
I didn't say they are banned because they make you high. But some are "listed" because of the direct harm or even seemingly on principe.
I say the ban doesn't work and feeds money to the wrong organisation. The junkies living at the bus stop are still there. They really vile stuff is more widely avaliable than the relatively harmless ones. If states had actuall controll over the drugs a lot of problems would be solved. Of course, that is never going to happen. It's more likely that tobacco and alcohol will be banned too, at this point.

Yes and the junkies are free to kill themselves off. Nothing is better than a problem taking care of itself.

You need a reason and a justification to ban something. These are not always the same, a lot of the currently legal drugs are far more dangerous than lsd or weed. But the mere fact that it's dangerous to you, doesn't make it an effort worth doing. The government is lazy, not a villain from captain planet going about killing dolphins and fun for shits and giggles. It's much more preoccupied with sitting on its ass, it's just that random bastards make it stand up and do a quick 5 minute brainstorm so that it could be left in peace. A lot of stuff is based on the "honour system", you're free to do x until you fuck up, but once you do. You fuck it up for everyone. Just as Al-Qa'ida permanently fucked up international flight.

As for tobacco and alcohol, the reasoning is the same, drunks and smokers are a problem to society. However, alcohol has too much cultural support for it to be banned. Tobacco, I'd say it will most likely be banned within two decades or so.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 07:36:44 AM by Saras »

Offline Havoc10K

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread 2
« Reply #8681 on: May 01, 2012, 07:47:24 AM »
It wont be banned, just restricted. Too much money from lobbyists.

Offline froody1911

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread 2
« Reply #8682 on: May 01, 2012, 07:51:45 AM »
On the topic of tobacco, I think it's far more likely that it'll only be restricted in public places like streets, shops, elevators, etc. with high fines. That's already been done in my state and in Havoc's country. People can still smoke in private or at some establishments.

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Offline Saras

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread 2
« Reply #8683 on: May 01, 2012, 07:56:35 AM »
Tobacco won't be banned while a large proportion of people still smoke and the smoking rates seem to decrease over time. Once <5% of the population smokes, it won't be a problem to ban it.

Offline elvikun

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread 2
« Reply #8684 on: May 01, 2012, 08:01:14 AM »
It won't be less than 5% in our lifetime. If ever. Humankind has a considerable need to smoke something and distill alcohol. Always had, always will.
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Offline Saras

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread 2
« Reply #8685 on: May 01, 2012, 08:08:43 AM »
Let's take America as an example, as it has plenty of data.

Year:% of smokers
1965:42.2
1990:25.5
2005:21.1
2010:19.3

Will it drop to 5%? No. But I'd easily expect it to drop to a point where it would be politically advantageous to ban.

The rate of drop-off while not accelerating is by no means declining at a fast rate and is roughly at 0.36% of a year compared to the earlier 0.43%. I'd expect the dropoff to remain >0.2%/year till the smoker population exceeds 8% of the population. The dropoff will fall at that point, but it won't make a group huge enough to inflence politics to a point that it'd be granted immunity.

Within 40 years, I'd say it will be <5%. Not the 20 I stated previously, but still. Within our lifetime.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 08:17:21 AM by Saras »

Offline elvikun

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread 2
« Reply #8686 on: May 01, 2012, 08:28:20 AM »
Yeah. Well. USA.
Either way, I won't argue about this and neither will I show up at your doors in 40 yers to say " I told you.".
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Offline Havoc10K

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread 2
« Reply #8687 on: May 01, 2012, 08:43:36 AM »
There is no need to ban smoking, a lot more people become aware of it's hazards and hence dropping smokers rates, when it will be 5% or less it won't need a ban, because if people will still see smoking as they started to see it right now, those 5% or less will simply be shunned and either do it in secrecy or just drop as well. When smokers get to 5% or less it will stop being lucrative so most companies will either shut down or change their goal. In UK you can hardly get cigarettes anyways, and from what I reckon most people buy units instead of packs because of the price, in Poland however you can buy em nearly anywhere, but with the public smoking restrictions more and more people simply stop smoking, also with the raising prices of cigarettes it just stops being a pleasure smoke and people revert to low quality (more lethal) brands and over time they either drop smoking or drop dead.

I'm seeing more problems with alcohol being available to buy pretty much everywhere these days, there's really no grocery shop that doesn't sell alcohol in Poland which is worrying me personally, but more than than i'm more annoyed that you can buy alcohol on a gas station, that's really retarded but that explains the rates of fatal accidents on roads over the years, if it was up to me i'd sooner ban selling alcohol and cigarettes on gas stations than ban smoking. Those two are able to kill on the road, but I wouldn't ban smoking at all, I would heavily restrict it and implement heavy fees for smoking in public or drinking alcohol in public, people should have the freedom for tobacco like they have the right to listen to their fav music as long as it doesn't annoy others, but I would definitely ban selling those on gas stations or  in shops near the road in 100 meter proximity.

Offline Saras

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread 2
« Reply #8688 on: May 01, 2012, 08:52:55 AM »
I'm not saying that there is a need to do it. I'm just saying that it will likely happen at that point. As it will give a few quick votes to politicians from nannies and mothers without having an adverse affect from the remainder.

Offline Havoc10K

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread 2
« Reply #8689 on: May 01, 2012, 08:54:32 AM »
I wouldn't ban it since it would be a forbidden fruit, do it smart and let people use it, less people breaking the law that way, more cash from fines to the treasury, simple and easy.

Offline Saras

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread 2
« Reply #8690 on: May 01, 2012, 08:55:56 AM »
I wouldn't ban it since it would be a forbidden fruit, do it smart and let people use it, less people breaking the law that way, more cash from fines to the treasury, simple and easy.

That's the smart option, not the go to option to get a few votes.

Anyway, I wouldn't ban it either, I am a casual smoker after all. I'm just saying that I believe that it is likely to happen in due time.

Offline Ixarku

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread 2
« Reply #8691 on: May 01, 2012, 10:03:13 AM »
Suffice it to say, the issue of ingesting chemicals is complex, and the situation for one is not always applicable to another.
 
Alcohol -- the U.S. tried Prohibition once and it failed spectacularly.  Alcohol is so widely accepted and so much a part of most modern countries' culture that it's not going away any time in the forseeable future, even if there are health risks associated for moderate to heavy use.
 
Tobacco / nicotine -- has widely established health consequences even at low usage levels.  More and more companies in the U.S. are penalizing tobacco users in the form of higher healthcare premiums.  Eventually, it's either going to get banned altogether in the U.S. or its use will be relegated to a small but vocal minority.
 
Marijuana -- personally I'm not convinced that it's harmless or that its benefits outweigh any negatives associated with it.  But the debate on that one is clearly not over.  I think eventual legalization or at least decriminalization in the U.S. is at least a possibility, but the political establishment is going to fight it to the very end.
 
Most of the other 'heavy' drugs like pcp, coke, heroin, meth etc have well documented destructive effects on people.  Frankly, I'm not sure what people here are arguing about re: these kinds of drugs.  You don't have to personally experience a drug to a) know it's bad for you, b) know that you never want to do it, c) be of the opinion that the consequences of use far outweigh the short term pleasure of.  You can be judgmental or not regarding drug users, but one does not necessarily follow from the other.
 
The whole thing about whether or not the government should be involved in regulating the things that you consume is an entirely different discussion.  Personally, I like being able to buy food or medicine and being reasonably sure that the product contains what the manufacturer says it contains; this is part of regulation is.
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Online Burkingam

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread 2
« Reply #8692 on: May 01, 2012, 10:15:06 AM »
Concerning Marijuana, it is harmful for the health. C0nc0rdance made a video about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnNPm5cG85c
also a follow up where he clarifies a few points
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwmWZvBThGY


I'm personally not convinced that prohibition is gonna help in any way. All it usually does is fill prisons and waste money. I think a harm-reductionist approach is much more effective.
Plus, drugs are just the perfect target for heavy taxes.
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Offline Havoc10K

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread 2
« Reply #8693 on: May 01, 2012, 10:20:03 AM »
Banning anything is a waste of time personally, I don't condone drugs use as it's also harmful in excess use, but small doses of some drugs seem beneficial, and i mean very small doses. I know for a fact some students use methamphetamine  to study harder and better, the fact they forget nearly everything afterwards is a known and expected side effect but as long as they pass exams it's actually funny and sad.

Also, no matter what you do with drugs, there will always be people that will want to try and use em. I see drug use and an attempt at making your own shitty reality, people with depression will get a nice bad trip anyway :P

Offline Ixarku

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread 2
« Reply #8694 on: May 01, 2012, 10:31:31 AM »
I'm not going to argue that banning dangerous substances is probably futile at best, especially when there is a willing market of consumers.  This is what makes certain drugs so insidious -- the addiction factor and the short-term pleasure.  The problem with the addictive stuff like meth or crack or heroin is that there is no safe dosage level.  Try it and you run the risk of getting hooked, and if you don't get off of it for good, you risk eventually destroying your life and the lives of those around you.
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Offline Havoc10K

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread 2
« Reply #8695 on: May 01, 2012, 10:33:29 AM »
Yup, exactly, it's a double edged sword, it has benefits, but consequences can be quite dire.

Online Burkingam

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread 2
« Reply #8696 on: May 01, 2012, 10:38:01 AM »
When it comes to very dangerous drugs like heroin, I would make their trade criminal but consumption should only give you a ticket. Nobody should have a criminal record for something that hurt only them.
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Offline shabutie

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread 2
« Reply #8697 on: May 01, 2012, 01:01:47 PM »
Quote
Fuck you all,
I hate this place,
Your Mom's a whore.

I wanted to say that to you mah, but I decided that was too mean.

Where's my dog?!

Offline Arc-sama

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread 2
« Reply #8698 on: May 01, 2012, 01:12:05 PM »
God ... I am not going back to read 6~12 pages of stuff!!!

Just kept it civil ... cos it seems some post are getting heated ...

Edit: it wasn't the last 9 post when I was typing this out.


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Offline Soryon

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread 2
« Reply #8699 on: May 01, 2012, 01:13:39 PM »
God ... I am not going back to read 6~12 pages of stuff!!!
This is how I use forums too. If Its not in the previous few posts, I will never see it.. especially in this thread.