Author Topic: Kim Jong il is Dead  (Read 3326 times)

Offline vicious796

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Re: Kim Jong il is Dead
« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2011, 06:30:29 PM »
If someone really wanted to invade North Korea, they'll be doing it while making sure South Korea won't simultaneously be wiped out.

Probably the most fit country at this moment among the potential combatants to invade, occupy, pacify, and then rebuild North Korea is South Korea itself, and it is also the most fit to defend itself under that unification war scenario, if given the proper political leeway to acquire the necessary military weapons, considering all the political, economic, military, geographic, demographic, social and cultural factors.

But we still prefer more to unify through non-violent means in a more gradual process, and that is in the best interest of every country in the region, including the United States. Another war like Iraq or Afghanistan (possibly worse) is something that the US can ill-afford at this moment, when its war in the Middle East isn't done yet and is struggling to get its economy back in shape. The US is seeking to significantly cut down on defense expenditure for the next few years and another large-scale war across an intercontinental distance is in direct confrontation with that objective.

I have doubts that the United States could win without the use of nuclear weapons.  They couldn't win in 1950, they won't win in 2011. 

People seem to think that technological advantages can win a war; Korea and Vietnam have long since proved that wrong.

The US didn't have a real technological advantage in 1950 over the USSR backed North Korea. Today, the gap is absolutely incredible and I doubt - I sincerely doubt - that it would take more than a week to get to Pyongyang with the amount of troops currently there and in Japan. Absolute air superiority is key and North Korea wouldn't stand a chance if the US/SK struck first.

However, if NK struck first or had time to prepare, Seoul would be decimated.

Now, battle of hearts and minds? That's a totally different story.


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Offline SeventyX7

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Re: Kim Jong il is Dead
« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2011, 07:16:45 PM »
If someone really wanted to invade North Korea, they'll be doing it while making sure South Korea won't simultaneously be wiped out.

Probably the most fit country at this moment among the potential combatants to invade, occupy, pacify, and then rebuild North Korea is South Korea itself, and it is also the most fit to defend itself under that unification war scenario, if given the proper political leeway to acquire the necessary military weapons, considering all the political, economic, military, geographic, demographic, social and cultural factors.

But we still prefer more to unify through non-violent means in a more gradual process, and that is in the best interest of every country in the region, including the United States. Another war like Iraq or Afghanistan (possibly worse) is something that the US can ill-afford at this moment, when its war in the Middle East isn't done yet and is struggling to get its economy back in shape. The US is seeking to significantly cut down on defense expenditure for the next few years and another large-scale war across an intercontinental distance is in direct confrontation with that objective.

I have doubts that the United States could win without the use of nuclear weapons.  They couldn't win in 1950, they won't win in 2011. 

People seem to think that technological advantages can win a war; Korea and Vietnam have long since proved that wrong.

The US didn't have a real technological advantage in 1950 over the USSR backed North Korea. Today, the gap is absolutely incredible and I doubt - I sincerely doubt - that it would take more than a week to get to Pyongyang with the amount of troops currently there and in Japan. Absolute air superiority is key and North Korea wouldn't stand a chance if the US/SK struck first.

However, if NK struck first or had time to prepare, Seoul would be decimated.

Now, battle of hearts and minds? That's a totally different story.
Has a country with a powerful personality cult like the one NK has around Kim Jong Il ever been invaded by a large power like the US?  Any history people have any info on that?

If it wasn't for that personality cult I'd say the battle for hearts and minds would be easy.  The North Korean government is the worst thing for its people.  They'd be so much better off under South Korean government.  Hell, they'd be better off under Chinese government.

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Re: Kim Jong il is Dead
« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2011, 11:18:18 AM »
Has a country with a powerful personality cult like the one NK has around Kim Jong Il ever been invaded by a large power like the US?  Any history people have any info on that?

Not personality cult, but there are many examples of defenders consisting of mix of civilians, military, women, old people, etc. There may be different reasons why defending force desperately fights to the last man, but the outcomes are often impressive.

One such example is the siege of Eger in 1552 by a superior Ottoman force. Defenders of the castle were soldiers, peasants and even women. Outnumbered 1 to 20 the defending force managed to withstand the siege. Here is a romanticised carving in the wall that I took a picture of when I visited the castle.

If I am not mistaken the tuaregs which were always backing Gadhaffi, fought for a long time in their besieged city before they got bombed to hell and overtaken by military means rather than surrender.

Viet Nam also won the war of attrition with a mix of soldiers and peasants.

The question is: how do you win heart and mind if they shoot first and ask questions later?
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Offline vicious796

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Re: Kim Jong il is Dead
« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2011, 12:49:28 PM »
It appears to be as I feared it would - there will be shared power in North Korea. At least that's what sources are claiming.

http://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-n-korea-military-backs-kim-heir-share-065017037.html

A two or three headed dragon with The Great Successor, The Great Uncle, and the All-Powerful Army (though really the uncle and the army are one in the same).


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Offline xfreidax

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Re: Kim Jong il is Dead
« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2011, 12:56:48 PM »
The question is: how do you win heart and mind if they shoot first and ask questions later?

You don't. You break them completely. Or accept that not everyone is going to buy your brand of freedom when forced upon them. They either learn it themselves, an internal change or perhaps they are open to accepting it from another source or at another time.

Look at the Afghans. They survived the British, Soviets and now it looks like the Taliban will survive the Americans. And they fought these powers with sticks and stones. Not saying this will happen in N.Korea, I'm no expert on how they will behave. Just pointing out you don't need to look too far into history to find the answer to your question Ace.

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Re: Kim Jong il is Dead
« Reply #45 on: December 21, 2011, 01:00:03 PM »
Ah, a functioning Triumvirate. Interesting indeed and I see why Vic fears it. This will most likely stabilize and strengthen the regime. There was always a slight hope that a leader's single bad whim could be his downfall.
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Offline jaybug

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Re: Kim Jong il is Dead
« Reply #46 on: December 22, 2011, 01:26:26 AM »
This just in, Kim Jong Il, is still dead.

Sorry, every time a dictator dies I remember back to that SNL Weekend Update skit where they broke in every few weeks to let us all know, Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.
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Offline Meomix

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Re: Kim Jong il is Dead
« Reply #47 on: December 22, 2011, 02:51:37 AM »
Come to think of it time to see what Jon Stewart says about the whole matter.
Did you know Satan was supposedly gods RIGHT HAND MAN, not his left. Blows your theory out of the water now doesn't it.

Offline vicious796

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Re: Kim Jong il is Dead
« Reply #48 on: December 22, 2011, 01:12:09 PM »
This just in!

A fierce snowstorm subsided and the sky glowed red above the sacred Mount Paektu just before the Great Leader died. Also, the ice on volcanic Lake Chon at the mountain in the far north cracked with a load roar. Beyond that, in the city of Hamhung, a Manchurian crane circled a statue of Kim's father, late President Kim Il Sung, before alighting on a tree, its head drooping before it took off toward Pyongyang.

http://news.yahoo.com/nkorea-cites-mysterious-glow-just-kim-death-035745165.html


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Offline Meomix

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Re: Kim Jong il is Dead
« Reply #49 on: December 22, 2011, 01:20:13 PM »
This just in!

A fierce snowstorm subsided and the sky glowed red above the sacred Mount Paektu just before the Great Leader died. Also, the ice on volcanic Lake Chon at the mountain in the far north cracked with a load roar. Beyond that, in the city of Hamhung, a Manchurian crane circled a statue of Kim's father, late President Kim Il Sung, before alighting on a tree, its head drooping before it took off toward Pyongyang.

http://news.yahoo.com/nkorea-cites-mysterious-glow-just-kim-death-035745165.html

Must be the netherworld finally celebrating the bastards departure.
Did you know Satan was supposedly gods RIGHT HAND MAN, not his left. Blows your theory out of the water now doesn't it.

Online AceHigh

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Re: Kim Jong il is Dead
« Reply #50 on: December 22, 2011, 02:17:34 PM »
This just in!

A fierce snowstorm subsided and the sky glowed red above the sacred Mount Paektu just before the Great Leader died. Also, the ice on volcanic Lake Chon at the mountain in the far north cracked with a load roar. Beyond that, in the city of Hamhung, a Manchurian crane circled a statue of Kim's father, late President Kim Il Sung, before alighting on a tree, its head drooping before it took off toward Pyongyang.

http://news.yahoo.com/nkorea-cites-mysterious-glow-just-kim-death-035745165.html

I remember a similar style of event reports from old testaments. Now I know what the cause could be.  ;D
« Last Edit: December 24, 2011, 07:09:25 AM by AceHigh »
For one thing, Tiff is not on any level what I would call a typical American.  She's not what I would consider a typical person.  I don't know any other genius geneticist anime-fan martial artist marksman model-level beauties, do you?

Offline tomoya-kun

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Re: Kim Jong il is Dead
« Reply #51 on: December 24, 2011, 05:52:53 AM »
If someone really wanted to invade North Korea, they'll be doing it while making sure South Korea won't simultaneously be wiped out.

Probably the most fit country at this moment among the potential combatants to invade, occupy, pacify, and then rebuild North Korea is South Korea itself, and it is also the most fit to defend itself under that unification war scenario, if given the proper political leeway to acquire the necessary military weapons, considering all the political, economic, military, geographic, demographic, social and cultural factors.

But we still prefer more to unify through non-violent means in a more gradual process, and that is in the best interest of every country in the region, including the United States. Another war like Iraq or Afghanistan (possibly worse) is something that the US can ill-afford at this moment, when its war in the Middle East isn't done yet and is struggling to get its economy back in shape. The US is seeking to significantly cut down on defense expenditure for the next few years and another large-scale war across an intercontinental distance is in direct confrontation with that objective.

I have doubts that the United States could win without the use of nuclear weapons.  They couldn't win in 1950, they won't win in 2011. 

People seem to think that technological advantages can win a war; Korea and Vietnam have long since proved that wrong.

The US didn't have a real technological advantage in 1950 over the USSR backed North Korea. Today, the gap is absolutely incredible and I doubt - I sincerely doubt - that it would take more than a week to get to Pyongyang with the amount of troops currently there and in Japan. Absolute air superiority is key and North Korea wouldn't stand a chance if the US/SK struck first.

However, if NK struck first or had time to prepare, Seoul would be decimated.

Now, battle of hearts and minds? That's a totally different story.

They had the same large technological gap now as they did in Vietnam and the Korean war.  In both wars, the U.S had absolute air superiority. 

In Vietnam, the U.S had infinitely better equipment (with helicopters) but they couldn't clear out their determined foe due to the terrain, which is similar to Korea's terrain.

The airpower argument is largely moot, as the north koreans have a very strong and relatively sophisticated radar based anti aircraft network of SAMs.  U.S bombers would be shot down by SAM sites that are easy to hide.  Remember Israel's Yom Kippur war, they lost more than a hundred modern aircraft to SAM sites in Egypt.  The number of stealth bombers is low enough to be considered a nonfactor, with costly and recurring maintenance required.

The Korean airforce is numerous and will be able to operate with the protection of their SAM network, they do have some MiG-29 and 23s which are more than capable of destroying american aircraft.  The Americans would probably be operating FA-18 hornets out of their carriers and from their Japanese bases, which are no match for SAMs and MiG 29s.

The North Korean ground forces (totaling 7,700,000 with their pulled reserves) would outnumber the active south korean army by a factor of 11, and they would take Seoul on the first day.  There would be no Pusan perimeter this time, they would have Pusan by week 2

If the north koreans can kill one U.S soldier for every ten of theirs, then the U.S will no longer be willing to fight the costly overseas war during their period of economic issues.

"You can kill ten of my men for every one I kill of yours, but even at those odds, you will lose and I will win."


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Online AceHigh

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Re: Kim Jong il is Dead
« Reply #52 on: December 24, 2011, 07:21:24 AM »
They had the same large technological gap now as they did in Vietnam and the Korean war.  In both wars, the U.S had absolute air superiority. 

Ha! You believe that? So that the reason why Russian Mig-15 simply massacred F-80s and then was an even match to F-86 sabres. In Korean war after the quick introduction of Mig-15 the kill ratio was around 2:1, so US had air superiority only at the very beginning in the war, after that it had big losses.
For one thing, Tiff is not on any level what I would call a typical American.  She's not what I would consider a typical person.  I don't know any other genius geneticist anime-fan martial artist marksman model-level beauties, do you?

darkjedi

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Re: Kim Jong il is Dead
« Reply #53 on: December 24, 2011, 10:43:20 AM »
It appears tomoya-kun has simultaneously forgotten how South Korea's own troops totally kicked the NV/VC's ass in the Vietnam War with equipment that was no better than what they had (in the early phases of the war our equipment were actually worse, like M1 carbine versus AK-47... lol). It was just too bad that our troops were called to pull out too early.

Quote
Koreans killing ratio has been 15:1, and they drove out the enemy from

the swamp area of Vin Dhing, where both the French and Vietnamese

were not successful during the past 20 years.

The basic characteristic of Koreans is their unending fighting spirit.

It is not at all surprising that the enemy is avoiding contact with

the Tiger,White Horse and Blue Dragon Warriors.

Captured enemy documents indicate that the VC are instructed not

to make contact with Koreans.

- Saigon Post March,20,1968 -

Quote
What would happen if six hundred thousand Koreans were exclusively

conducting the Vietnam war? Only fifty thousand Koreans repelled the

enemy from their strategic responsibility area just overnight during

the enemy's Tet offensive...... The central coast area which Viet Cong

had been occupying since their anti-French war is now completely

under Koreans' control.

- Evansille Journal, U.S.A- March,1966

Quote
The central area of this country where ROK Forces are stationed is

best secured area.

ROK soldiers are brave enough to guard the area of their responsibility

against the enemy, who is skillful in particualar tactics.

They are also mutually understandable to the regional people,

and experienced ROK surgeons kindly take medical care of the people.

- Tieng Vang(New Paper) 17 Feb 1968 -

Quote
If the Korean forces had taken charge of the whole of South Vietnam

or the U.S forces had drawn a lesson from "Go Boi",

the Vietnam war would already have been won.

When one takes a ride in a car for 96 kilometers in the pitch-back

dark,there is not a single sign of rifle shooting or ambush attack.

None but the Korean soldiers could do so anywhere in South Vietnam

-The London Times.

Quote
The Americans in South Vietnam give the Koreans top markes both as

fighting men and for their pacification efforts.

Indeed, some Americans who have worked with the ROKs believe that

it would not hurt the U.S to study their methods.

"It's a little bit like being a teacher and having an extraor dinary student."

mused ond U.S offical

"You come to class one morning and discover he has gone past you."

-News week 10 April 1967 -

Quote
Captured Viet Cong orders now stipulate that contact with the Koreans

is to be avoided at all costs unless a Viet Cong victory is 100% certain.

Never defy Korean soldiers without discrimination, even when are not

armed, for they all well trained with Taekwondo.

- An excerpt from an enemy directive seized

Quote
U.S has found a valuable ally in the South Koreans.

They're rugged fighter- and more. As "combat politicians" the ROKs make

of their Oriental kinship whth Vietnamese.

Americans feel they can learn some lessons.

- U.S News & World Report 15 May 1967 -

It should be duly notified to the discussants here that the main combatant and stakeholder of another Korean War will not be the US military but the South Korean military with the US taking the supportive role. This set of arrangement in our order of battle is actually encouraged by the US military leadership and we are fast approaching that divergence point from our traditional roles.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2011, 10:50:24 AM by darkjedi »

Online AceHigh

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Re: Kim Jong il is Dead
« Reply #54 on: December 24, 2011, 11:18:29 AM »
Quote
It appears tomoya-kun has simultaneously forgotten how South Korea's own troops totally kicked the NV/VC's ass in the Vietnam War with equipment that was no better than what they had (in the early phases of the war our equipment were actually worse, like M1 carbine versus AK-47... lol). It was just too bad that our troops were called to pull out too early.

Wouldn't that be normally considered a bad strategic decision with the NK still being a threat from the north and communist China in the west?
For one thing, Tiff is not on any level what I would call a typical American.  She's not what I would consider a typical person.  I don't know any other genius geneticist anime-fan martial artist marksman model-level beauties, do you?

darkjedi

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Re: Kim Jong il is Dead
« Reply #55 on: December 24, 2011, 11:47:18 AM »
Wouldn't that be normally considered a bad strategic decision with the NK still being a threat from the north and communist China in the west?

North Korea and China were only two of the Communist 'enemies' that were common to both Korea and the US. The communist forces of NV and VC weren't much different from them; it wasn't really difficult for the Korean government to justify assembling a volunteers-only army to fight alongside the US against them because they too were the same Communists that were worth fighting against, allied to North Korea and China, and, perhaps more importantly, because the US wanted our help. The US helped us when we needed it most and the Vietnam War was also the time when the US wanted foreign militaries' help badly, giving us a natural opportunity to reciprocate and uphold our commitment to a bilateral, not one-way, military alliance. We naturally rose up to the challenge.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2011, 11:48:51 AM by darkjedi »

Online AceHigh

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Re: Kim Jong il is Dead
« Reply #56 on: December 24, 2011, 11:57:50 AM »
Volunteer only? Ok, because I imagined a relocation of forces that otherwise would protect the home land.
For one thing, Tiff is not on any level what I would call a typical American.  She's not what I would consider a typical person.  I don't know any other genius geneticist anime-fan martial artist marksman model-level beauties, do you?

darkjedi

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Re: Kim Jong il is Dead
« Reply #57 on: December 24, 2011, 12:06:49 PM »
Yes, volunteers only. All 320,000 Korean soldiers sent to Vietnam were sent voluntarily. Of course, they were volunteers among conscripts who served in the homeland. Only those who wanted to fight in Vietnam were sent there.

Offline vicious796

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Re: Kim Jong il is Dead
« Reply #58 on: December 28, 2011, 12:21:54 PM »
I'm getting mixed signals from this article on the funeral procession.

http://news.yahoo.com/nkoreans-line-streets-kim-jong-ils-funeral-074956915.html

Mostly due to the fact that, while there was a strong military presence there (as to be expected), the state media is also pumping out the notion that Jong-Un is a "tender, warm, loving leader". So, I guess over the next year we should really see what he does. Will he really continue his father's military first attempt at strong-arming the rest of the world or will he slowly but surely open up? Because a true warmly, loving leader feeds his people.


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Offline Pharismo

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Re: Kim Jong il is Dead
« Reply #59 on: December 28, 2011, 01:33:05 PM »
I'm getting mixed signals from this article on the funeral procession.

http://news.yahoo.com/nkoreans-line-streets-kim-jong-ils-funeral-074956915.html

Mostly due to the fact that, while there was a strong military presence there (as to be expected), the state media is also pumping out the notion that Jong-Un is a "tender, warm, loving leader". So, I guess over the next year we should really see what he does. Will he really continue his father's military first attempt at strong-arming the rest of the world or will he slowly but surely open up? Because a true warmly, loving leader feeds his people.

But them you need to remember who is his people? The entire of the country population or just a class.

Look at USA current protests, the 99% population against the 1% population, who is the govenment people? The 1% rich, the rest, is just the rest and they get fucked and fucked by the government.
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