Hi10P and 8-bit encodes

[RedSuisei]

I believe that 10 bit and 8 bit should be treated equally aside from the C slot for 8 bit SD for legacy purposes.

You don't have to worry about that, old 8-bit SD torrents will be swapped for 10-bit encodes only if someone is crazy enough to re-encode them (and if they turn out better ofc). I seriously doubt that someone would do that. And The "legacy" slot is slot D, not C.

So I guess I'm crazy enough then. Surprisingly there are quite a number of 10-bit SD encodes of old stuff which only had low quality 8-bit version before. Stuff like my works, or jackoneill's new 10-bit works, or a new Blood+ DVD rip currently ongoing by ecchilicious etc.

[Isabelyes]

Just my two cents:

Coalgirl's 1080p 10bit Bakemonogatari takes up 20% of my RAM on my three-year-old laptop with an i3, 4 GB of RAM, and no graphics card. Even if you go back maybe another four year's worth of technological progress, virtually any machine should have the processing power for a 720p version, let alone the 1080p one.

My netbook lags at Coalgirls' 720p 8-bit Bakemonogatari. It hasn't even been two years since I bought it. It simply /cannot/ play hi10p anime.

[OnDeed]

I believe that 10 bit and 8 bit should be treated equally aside from the C slot for 8 bit SD for legacy purposes.

You don't have to worry about that, old 8-bit SD torrents will be swapped for 10-bit encodes only if someone is crazy enough to re-encode them (and if they turn out better ofc). I seriously doubt that someone would do that. And The "legacy" slot is slot D, not C.

You mean, there are no groups doing dvd-ripping anymore? Last time I checked, I saw 4-5 encoders from those in a single, 10 head strong IRC channel that I won't name

Edit: inb4ed by RedSuisei o/

[erejnion]

The current situation seems good for now. Remember, 10bit is only half an year old, for all effective reasons. I say, wait until it hits one year, then threat 8bit and 10bit equally. This is not because of hardware incompatibility (this won't be solved in just half an year), but just to make the life of the users easier, and the transition smoother. I expect that practically no group will be releasing in 8bit by the middle of the next year, so bakabt will be able to remove this option (of parallel existence) with next to none opposition.

P.S. as for playback on a PC, I should note something: 10bit playback requires less processor power than 8bit playback three years ago. If your processor couldn't play 8bit three years ago, you shouldn't be whining now. If your processor is less than three years old, chances are that it can play 10bit anyway.

edit:

My netbook lags at Coalgirls' 720p 8-bit Bakemonogatari. It hasn't even been two years since I bought it. It simply /cannot/ play hi10p anime.

From the beginning, you need SD encodes, not 8bit encodes. You can play back 10bit 480p without problems.

[OnDeed]

P.S. as for playback on a PC, I should note something: 10bit playback requires less processor power than 8bit playback three years ago. If your processor couldn't play 8bit three years ago, you shouldn't be whining now. If your processor is less than three years old, chances are that it can play 10bit anyway.

Hardly true! In 2008, libavcodec's ffh264 was still good deal slower than coreavc especially for K8s (IIRC, for Core 2 cpus, the catchup more or less happened in jan 2009); and it was coreavc what people widely used (bought or pirated) for that very reason. It's not like coreavc had any notable performance changes since 2006 (for simplicity, let's speak about versions prior to 2.0). And no, unless you provide some meaningful benchmark, I won't believe that today's libavcodec decodes 10bit faster than 2008's did decode 8bit. Not even begining to speak about CoreAVC two years before that!

[erejnion]

Well, as CoreAVC is a non-free option (generally speaking), I didn't include it in my comparison, and have never actually used it... LAV video on the other hand didn't exist 3 years ago. Comparing LAV video to ffh264 three years ago (the best free decoders in the relevant moment of time), yeah, I think LAV video is faster on 10bit than ffh264 was on 8bit. Why I think so? I remember how the first 1080p BD rips I downloaded on my (then) new laptop were too heavy for my processor... while I can play 10bit 1080p without any problems now. On the exactly same machine (3years warranties ftw).

edit: I must admit, I really forgot about CoreAVC... but still, you can see where I am coming from.

[OnDeed]

I didn't mean LAV video. When saying "libavodec", I was refering to the ffmpeg decoder, that has been powering ffdshow, MPlayer, VLC and other free decoders (LAV video eventually) from the start. ffh264 is the internal name of libavcodec's decoder for h.264, I think.

Well, as CoreAVC is a non-free option (generally speaking)

Pirates didn't care one bit. It was regularly distributed on xdcc bots, together with HD releases.

Why I think so? I remember how the first 1080p BD rips I downloaded on my (then) new laptop were too heavy for my processor... while I can play 10bit 1080p without any problems now. On the exactly same machine (3years warranties ftw).

That would be because for a long time, ffmpeg/libavcodec/ffh264 wasn't multithreaded! It could only use 1 core^*. That was the other reason why people used CoreAVC instead, because it supported quas like from day 1 (I'm fairly sure it did in 2006). So in any case, the benchmark for decoding performance can in no way be 2008's or 2009's libavcodec (the "free" decoder), when the practical scenario is 2006's CoreAVC - which is almost as fast as for example Athlon 64 ever got, amusingly.

^* Multithreaded libavcodec (aka ffmpeg-MT) started to happen in very alpha state in 2008. Throughout 2009 it was probably getting usable,by 2010 I think it was more or less stable and widely used thing but was still out of mainline tree and needed to be patched in. It only got merged into mainline ffmpeg (by that time schismed into ffmpeg and libav) in Q2 2011 (IIRC).

[Aleron Ives]

Since BakaBT ranks releases by quality (not filesize), it makes sense to treat 8 and 10-bit encodes equally, but the staff must decide how to balance quality concerns with compatibility.

I am probably one of the few people here who actually does use CoreAVC for its improved performance. It allows me to play 720p releases on my old Pentium 4, which is simply not possible with the free AVC decoders. Since I've read Hi10P requires around 33% more processing power than a comparable 8-bit version, the overhead is simply unacceptable for me. It also doesn't help that CoreAVC's support for Hi10P is substandard compared to other decoders, although that may change in the next release.

I will understand if BakaBT decides to prioritize its quality standards above compatibility, but the longer the staff waits to make the transition, the fewer users will be alienated by it. I can only say that if this site starts replacing 8-bit 720p encodes with Hi10P versions, I will just have to get my anime elsewhere. I don't hold it against the staff that my computer is old; they just need to decide whether embracing a new format in the name of quality but at the expense of the userbase is worthwhile.

[garretn]

To garretn and anyone else using XBMC: Look into DSPlayer. That way you can get perfectly working 10-bit support into XBMC.

Also, I personally watch stuff on my 42" FullHD Panasonic plasma TV that I have connected to my computer simply via HDMI. I don't have any fancy sound setups, though. Either way, you can most definitely get XBMC to run 10-bit stuff just fine.

I personally say go for it: ASS softsubs are not very hardware-compatible either (no hardware player that could properly render ASS subtitles exist), yet fansubbers have been using them for years. Caring about compatibility too much will just bog us down. If we all had waited for hardware support to catch up before moving to H.264 as well, we would have only started using it a year or two ago.

And to everyone who has bought a hardware decoder: You should have known what you were buying. Hardware decoders have always been inflexible in what they can do - whenever something new comes, they usually will not be able to do anything about it, whereas with a proper CPU the only thing you need to do is update the software. I personally have always considered hardware decoding to be nothing but a nice extra to use if available, but with anime playback you should not use it as a total replacement for software decoding. With the fansub scene's long history of not caring about hardware support, people should have really seen this coming.

Also, I agree with IX on the terminology thing - don't mix things like that, it just looks terrible. Just stick to 10-bit and 8-bit, please, as the bit depth is literally the only difference between High 10 Profile and High Profile.

I've tried both DSPlayer and bambi's pre-eden builds with updated ffmpeg (10bit) support, neither work well. I stand by saying that software isn't quite there yet, and my 6 months to a year prediction.

Honestly, we may be discussing the wrong question. I seems pretty obvious that 10-bit is the future, it's just whether or not it's time yet. I don't think it's time yet.

[halfelite]

And for the people that keep telling everyone they just need to upgrade an upgrade would be a downgrade for my needs.  I could build 5 htpc's to replaces all my stand-alones. but then I lose out on a silent player that could play 1080p with HD audio bitstream, its just not a good solution for my needs.

If anime was 100% of my usage an htpc would be a good idea but since most of my usage is bluray rips I need the hd audio streams. So whatever happens I will just encode the shows i want back to 8bit

[OnDeed]

I'm not sure 10bit is "future". With mainstream users, industry, tv, blurays, video ondemand services and whatnot and not least non-anime piracy generally using h.264, 8-bit will always be here. 10-bit will only be standard in so far as we stay in some sort of a niche

If there is future, it's going to be h.265 (whatever profile that gets mainstream and will have hardware decoders)...

[the trooper]

You mean, there are no groups doing dvd-ripping anymore? Last time I checked, I saw 4-5 encoders from those in a single, 10 head strong IRC channel that I won't name

Edit: inb4ed by RedSuisei o/

That's not what i meant, i was talking about old sd tv-rips. My fault for not explaining myself properly (and forgetting dvd ripping). Either way, if a 8-bit dvd-rip is worth keeping for legacy proposes when a better 10-bit option arrives, it should be moved to the D slot.

I love your and RedSusei's (and the others mentioned by him) works btw.

[PrOdiGyiNaCn]

I personally like the idea of maintaining at least one slot for high quality 8bit encodes. I personally stream most of my downloads via ps3 media server.  The latest release supports 10bit, but just barely.  I spent 3 hours getting the thing to work properly, and even then its not 100%.  So for the next little while until not just hardware catches up, but other software packages that are out there now.

[otakukitty]

how do i know if mine is a Hi10P or 8-bit encode as i use megui for my rips mainly for myself but sometimes i like to share my releases and if its not supported should i be using a different encoding program.

[Astara]

you do realize they issued a CoreAVC 3.0.1 ... that fixed up the color bleeding....at least a  month ago...

They didn't announce, but I went to their site to report the flakeyness, and found the upgrade and it cured all outstanding problems that _I_ had noticed ... not to say there might not still be some, but went back to vids
where I got psychedelic effects (color overload), -- all fixed...


Are there other probs w/core AvC that I just am not seeing?




?

[Aerah]

I asked Coalgirls why they were abandoning normal h264 for some 10-bit crud that I cannot run. It wasn't about file size reduction, they couldn't care. The answer was essentially... because we can. Thus new Coalgirls is on my blacklist. If you ain't switching to 10bit for size reduction, you are simply switching to it because it is a newer and cooler.

I think Thor Anime did the same thing now, except -even worse- the group doesn't mention this fact. So I did waste a week downloading 10+GB 1080p BD RIP just to have to download another one. So Thora Anime is now on my blacklist as well.
There is a lot of idiocy here, not just limited though to switching to 10bit "because we can, go f_ck yourself" and not tagging 10bit properly.

First and foremost DXVA is cheaper. DXVA also puts the CPU in its rightful place doing nothing graphical. Modern DXVA offers hardware accelerated 4K video playback. Why abandon such progressive technology and go back to days of XVID and CPU playback? 8-bit outperforms 10bit in old machines that do not support DXVA and obviously doesn't require any hardware power in new machines. It is not just that 10-bit is new and probably will never be supported by hardware. It is that 10-bit h264 is useless if you foresake file size differences.

Guess what? People who do not have high-end machines, use netbooks, or consoles like to watch High Definition Video too. Development builds of MPC:HC allow someone with a machine too weak to run Fallout to play 1080p video with kareoke effects.

I am currently downloading the 100GB 1080p Card Captor sub - I like high quality, I don't care about file size. Connection speeds improve and space isn't much of an issue either - there is no reason for 10bit aside from its cool factor.

Or you can have an attitude like this fine 10-bit supporting gentlemen,

^stop watching anime on your shitty plastic toys nigger

[Louna]

Quality > Encoding.

For the ongoing series you can always find alternate download, and in a few years/months when only bakaBT will have active torrents, Hi10p support should be trivial.

[OnDeed]

I asked Coalgirls why they were abandoning normal h264 for some 10-bit crud that I cannot run. It wasn't about file size reduction, they couldn't care. The answer was essentially... because we can. Thus new Coalgirls is on my blacklist. If you ain't switching to 10bit for size reduction, you are simply switching to it because it is a newer and cooler.

I think Thor Anime did the same thing now, except -even worse- the group doesn't mention this fact. So I did waste a week downloading 10+GB 1080p BD RIP just to have to download another one. So Thora Anime is now on my blacklist as well.
There is a lot of idiocy here, not just limited though to switching to 10bit "because we can, go f_ck yourself" and not tagging 10bit properly.

First and foremost DXVA is cheaper. DXVA also puts the CPU in its rightful place doing nothing graphical. Modern DXVA offers hardware accelerated 4K video playback. Why abandon such progressive technology and go back to days of XVID and CPU playback? 8-bit outperforms 10bit in old machines that do not support DXVA and obviously doesn't require any hardware power in new machines. It is not just that 10-bit is new and probably will never be supported by hardware. It is that 10-bit h264 is useless if you foresake file size differences.

Guess what? People who do not have high-end machines, use netbooks, or consoles like to watch High Definition Video too. Development builds of MPC:HC allow someone with a machine too weak to run Fallout to play 1080p video with kareoke effects.

I am currently downloading the 100GB 1080p Card Captor sub - I like high quality, I don't care about file size. Connection speeds improve and space isn't much of an issue either - there is no reason for 10bit aside from its cool factor.

Or you can have an attitude like this fine 10-bit supporting gentlemen,

^stop watching anime on your shitty plastic toys nigger

While I don't disagree overal, there are few points that I have to btich about.

1) I'm pretty sure that Fallout required like Pentium 90 and 16MB RAM (the game is superb tho!).
2) Thora announced the switch to 10-bit on their website; every release post has usage of high10 profile clearly stated in it. Also, one of their recent rips was made in 8bit preciselly on the ground that 10bit didn't seem to offer benefits for that anime. In other words, some of your disdain is misplaced.

[okimasa]

"BakaBT is unique in the quality of our content." - http://wiki.bakabt.me/index.php/FAQ#What_makes_BakaBT_different.3F

I'm in support of 10bit. One of the reasons that I love BakaBT is because it offers the highest quality available.

..also, for those who are raising the issue of 10bit on netbooks, if I'm not mistaken, isn't 1024x600/1024x768 generally the screen resolution of a netbook? If so, I would have thought that 480p would be more than acceptable... wouldn't it be?

[OnDeed]

"BakaBT is unique in the quality of our content." - http://wiki.bakabt.me/index.php/FAQ#What_makes_BakaBT_different.3F

I'm in support of 10bit. One of the reasons that I love BakaBT is because it offers the highest quality available.

..also, for those who are raising the issue of 10bit on netbooks, if I'm not mistaken, isn't 1024x600/1024x768 generally the screen resolution of a netbook? If so, I would have thought that 480p would be more than acceptable... wouldn't it be?

1) Better netbooks (AMD c-50/60 or E-350/450, dualcore Atoms) can/do come with 1366x768 screens. Same for 15.4" laptops build on the mentioned AMD chips. Also, it's not just netbooks. ULV chips used in slim laptops also tend to have rather low clocks and thus, performance. and note that all these can eb used for driving an external display or tv set sometimes (this scenario probably isn't a common thing though).

2) As for prefering quality.... it isn't the 10-bit torrents that are supposed to go - those have their place secured (unless the visually blow in which case the point is moot); it's the 8bit fallback torrents this is about. Thus the "preference for best quality" argument isn't really relevant here. It's really a question of keeping fall-back, *secondary* releases if the primary one is not 8-bit.