Hi10P and 8-bit encodes

[from]

The poll basically gives 3 choices - 'Yes', 'No' and 'I don't care' with the addition of option 'Yes' having sub options 'Everything', 'Allow a dedicated 8-bit A slot' and 'Allow a dedicated 8-bit C slot' which would only be filled only if there was a 10-bit torrent offered when we already have an 8-bit uploaded.

I and others have interpreted all options but the first one as "No", to some degree, rather than "yes". As I mentioned earlier, your poll is highly obfuscated and should be remade, as I now know for sure I voted erroneously and I am sure others have as well.

What I want, and from this thread it seems I'm not alone, is for BakaBT to provide (when available) an 8-bit alternative in case the "best quality" (as per the site guidelines) encode is 10-bit. I'm interested in 720p, others are interested in 1080p or 480p, but that simple basic - an 8-bit alternative when available, at least for now - I believe you would find a majority willing to stand behind.

Proposed formula of new poll:

"As BakaBT has as a goal to provide the best quality available, we will start making 10-bit encodes the default, when the encode in question is of a quality that exceeds that of 8-bit alternatives. In regards to 8-bit encodes when a 10-bit encode is the default, should we:

A) Not have any 8-bit encode, since the best is enough?

B) Present an 8-bit encode as an alternative when available, for compatibility reasons?

C) I don't care, do whatever you feel like."

[tyrionlannister]

And your option B) Present an 8-bit encode as an alternative when available, for compatibility reasons? is exactly the reason for the different options in the poll. You say have an (1) 8-bit encode, but for which slot? If you in fact want several, for each slot, then you should just choose the last option in the poll.

Keep in mind that if you do want the last option in the poll, it creates the potential for 3 slots (A,B,C) * 2 (single audio, dual audio) * 2 (10-bit, 8-bit) + 1 (D slot) = 12 +1= 13 releases for a single series/OVA/movie. Think upon the amount of work that would mean for the staff, and the amount of split seeders.

If you don't want an alternative for all the slots, that's where the second and the third poll options should be used.

In conclusion, I think the poll is well done and hopefully will help simplify and improve the approval process.

[abz_chillout]

I am okay with either. Both 10-bit and 8-bit play just as well on my desktop (using the latest CCCP). If 10-bit offer advantages in size over 8-bit, then I'd gladly opt for them.

On another note, it'd be great if you guys could provide links of some codecs/players that play 10-bit well. Many people aren't able to play 10-bit because they are unaware of the codec packs or players that can play them.

[Duki3003]

Do you mean like this?

[mahaione]

I am okay with either. Both 10-bit and 8-bit play just as well on my desktop (using the latest CCCP). If 10-bit offer advantages in size over 8-bit, then I'd gladly opt for them.

On another note, it'd be great if you guys could provide links of some codecs/players that play 10-bit well. Many people aren't able to play 10-bit because they are unaware of the codec packs or players that can play them.

Every major codec pack supports 10-bit; it only needs to be updated.

[Boscoe]

For me, it's simple. My media player device will not play 10 bit. I don't watch this stuff on my PC (can't really invite friends over to huddle around my computer hutch and besides, my attempt at playing 10 bit on my PC was fail anyway), so if we're evolving toward an all-10-bit scheme, then eventually I'm gone. The thing that strikes me as odd about this debate is that this is the only place I've yet encountered 10 bit encodes. Haven't run across a single one at any of the various and sundry places I go for non-Asian movies and television shows.

But, it's not all about ME, so do whatever you think is best for the site. I'm just presenting my personal situation for the record.

[Bob2004]

Keep in mind that if you do want the last option in the poll, it creates the potential for 3 slots (A,B,C) * 2 (single audio, dual audio) * 2 (10-bit, 8-bit) + 1 (D slot) = 12 +1= 13 releases for a single series/OVA/movie. Think upon the amount of work that would mean for the staff, and the amount of split seeders.

If you don't want an alternative for all the slots, that's where the second and the third poll options should be used.

In conclusion, I think the poll is well done and hopefully will help simplify and improve the approval process.

Sorry, but there is absolutely no way any show would end up with 13 releases. That would only happen if there is a 10-bit dual audio version that is better quality than an 8-bit dual audio, that is better quality than a 10-bit single audio, that is better quality than an 8-bit single audio. For every single slot. Plus a special release in group D.

That is obviously not going to happen; as you can see from looking at current shows, in practice there isn't going to be more than 1 or 2 8-bit alternatives at most. Besides, since all offers need to be compared regardless of the outcome of this discussion, there should be very little extra work added for staff no matter what system is decided upon.

The poll basically gives 3 choices - 'Yes', 'No' and 'I don't care' with the addition of option 'Yes' having sub options 'Everything', 'Allow a dedicated 8-bit A slot' and 'Allow a dedicated 8-bit C slot' which would only be filled only if there was a 10-bit torrent offered when we already have an 8-bit uploaded.

I and others have interpreted all options but the first one as "No", to some degree, rather than "yes". As I mentioned earlier, your poll is highly obfuscated and should be remade, as I now know for sure I voted erroneously and I am sure others have as well.

What I want, and from this thread it seems I'm not alone, is for BakaBT to provide (when available) an 8-bit alternative in case the "best quality" (as per the site guidelines) encode is 10-bit. I'm interested in 720p, others are interested in 1080p or 480p, but that simple basic - an 8-bit alternative when available, at least for now - I believe you would find a majority willing to stand behind.

Proposed formula of new poll:

"As BakaBT has as a goal to provide the best quality available, we will start making 10-bit encodes the default, when the encode in question is of a quality that exceeds that of 8-bit alternatives. In regards to 8-bit encodes when a 10-bit encode is the default, should we:

A) Not have any 8-bit encode, since the best is enough?

B) Present an 8-bit encode as an alternative when available, for compatibility reasons?

C) I don't care, do whatever you feel like."

Whether they should be treated equally and, if not, what alternatives should be provided, are two different questions. Trying to mix them into one isn't going to work. Really, it needs to be two separate questions: "Should 10-bit and 8-bit be treated equally? [YES/NO] If no, what alternative should be provided? [DEDICATED 8-BIT SLOT A/8-BIT SLOT B/8-BIT ALTERNATIVE FOR ALL SLOTS]"

There's no need to change the current poll anyway, since you can infer the answers to the above from the current one. You can see how many people are against by adding the last 3 options together; which alternative they prefer can be decided based on which of those 3 got most votes. Right now, more people are in favour of providing some kind of alternative; since all 3 alternatives are almost exactly equal, the staff may as well just do whichever is easier for them of those three (assuming the results don't change significantly by the end of the poll).

[eliador]

For me, it's simple. My media player device will not play 10 bit. I don't watch this stuff on my PC (can't really invite friends over to huddle around my computer hutch and besides, my attempt at playing 10 bit on my PC was fail anyway), so if we're evolving toward an all-10-bit scheme, then eventually I'm gone. The thing that strikes me as odd about this debate is that this is the only place I've yet encountered 10 bit encodes. Haven't run across a single one at any of the various and sundry places I go for non-Asian movies and television shows.

But, it's not all about ME, so do whatever you think is best for the site. I'm just presenting my personal situation for the record.

Same as you, i have a netbook with monocore Atom and Ubuntu x86 and Nvidia ION : thanks to VDPAU and mplayer i can watch any 8bit mkv up to 720p (i prefer 480p because i don't care about graphics, only about story  ).

Thanks to a special build i can play 10bits (https://launchpad.net/~ripps818/+archive/coreavc) but VDPAU (still) cannot work so my poor Atom dies immediatly 

So i stick to 8bits (and will avoid/drop only-10bits encoded serie) but perfectly understand the needs for future standard. The only thing i don't like, not on BakaBT, is the way this issue is managed/discussed on some major fansubs sites like "8bits = retarded & stupid people, 10bits = the master race". Seems to me some people only like to have the biggest one

[Aerah]

^
I have to correct you, you can watch up to ~50Mbit 8-bit 1080p according to NVIDIA on ION.
"up to 720p" limitation for 8-bit is probably Linux imposed; you probably ain't using the GPU at all...

[Anvh]

One correction to several other posts: 10-bit does take a substantial extra bit of CPU juice, and there is no GPU support to take the sting out of that.  It is disingenuous to pretend that "most" old hardware that plays 8-bit can play 10-bit.  Simply not a true statement, so please stop making it.  I still advocate the rollover to a 10-bit world, but let us please keep the discussion honest.  Quite a lot of folks will suffer, being stuck with lower powered hardware.  I know: I am one of them.  I hope in a year's time to be able to fix that, with a little luck.

Try this http://imouto.my/configuring-potplayer-for-gpu-accelerated-video-playback-with-dxva-or-cuda-and-also-high-performance-software-decoding/?utm_source=BlogGlue_network&utm_medium=BlogGlue_Plugin#Hi10-pnotes

The AMD 6850 that i use is able to run 1080p 10bit without much trouble, sometimes (actually only during heavy opening and ending) you see some framedrops but for the rest it works.


ps. would like to see they keep at least a 720p 8bit version for all the media-player, ARM and other mobile or low power devices.
For the rest 10bit is the way to go I think.

[Kagenoryu]

My opinion on the topic: besides of starting to see people discussing (or complaining) about these 10 and 8-bit things in the last few months I myself don't really know anything at all about it. I might have downloaded and played some of them when taking the latest shows I wanted episode by episode without even knowing it is 10bit (how can one find out?), but so far my PC could play everything I downloaded. And as long as it played, it's convertable for my purposes.

Still to me this all has once more the look of "quality" nowadays only meaning "most hardware using" anymore (just like sloppy coded games), which I find sad. Then again, if I don't like a version offered here, it's not like the only place in the internet to download fansubs would be here.

[doll_licca]

By the way, I'm not an admin here, but I do know that they'll throw out a Hi10P offer if they feel it gives no advantage over an 8-bit encode, or if there are other factors that make them feel it's not worth taking the Hi10P offer.

[eliador]

^
I have to correct you, you can watch up to ~50Mbit 8-bit 1080p according to NVIDIA on ION.
"up to 720p" limitation for 8-bit is probably Linux imposed; you probably ain't using the GPU at all...

there is no Linux limitation : i dont' watch 1080p release because my netbook res is 1366 x 768 so it's kind of stupid to watch 1080p release here  when i played a 8-bit 720p the CPU is really low (the GPU temperature goes very high so VDPAU works well).

i once tried a 1080p movie mkv and it kind of freeze just at the beginning so i guess that's the limit but as i said this kind of hardware (netbook, even laptop) are designed to watch 720p releases because of the resolution. i'm not a 50" TV super mega 1080p target audience (and i will never be).

and VLC does not work well on Ubuntu (no GPU acceleration) : i'm limited to version 1.1.x because i'm on Ubuntu LTS (so i cannot watch 10-bit with beta VLC 1.2.x and must use mplayer2 which can not support VDPAU ... the circle of 10-bit NO GO is fulfilled  )

[lolnameless]

^
I have to correct you, you can watch up to ~50Mbit 8-bit 1080p according to NVIDIA on ION.
"up to 720p" limitation for 8-bit is probably Linux imposed; you probably ain't using the GPU at all...

there is no Linux limitation : i dont' watch 1080p release because my netbook res is 1366 x 768 so it's kind of stupid to watch 1080p release here  when i played a 8-bit 720p the CPU is really low (the GPU temperature goes very high so VDPAU works well).

i once tried a 1080p movie mkv and it kind of freeze just at the beginning so i guess that's the limit but as i said this kind of hardware (netbook, even laptop) are designed to watch 720p releases because of the resolution. i'm not a 50" TV super mega 1080p target audience (and i will never be).

and VLC does not work well on Ubuntu (no GPU acceleration) : i'm limited to version 1.1.x because i'm on Ubuntu LTS (so i cannot watch 10-bit with beta VLC 1.2.x and must use mplayer2 which can not support VDPAU ... the circle of 10-bit NO GO is fulfilled  )

do you sure vdpau is running?
mplayer2 support vdpau even better than mplayer (which im using), you need to specify the video output drivers(vo=vdpau) and video codecs(vc=ffmpeg12vdpau,ffwmv3vdpau,ffvc1vdpau,ffh264vdpau,ffodivxvdpau), im not sure about settings on mplayer2vdpau works like a charm on mplayer2 for me, the settings are the same

also, im not sure about vdpau support on hi10p(that's why this post is made), dont test it on hi10p

[ferrari]

on the PC watching either 10-bit or 8-bit is ok but what about media-players? I mean hardware media-players which comes as box with Ethernet slot so you can connect it to NAS and watch HD anime on your huge TV-set. AFAIK there is no one such device on market now which can support 10-bit coding.

[Jazzkatt]

    Not everyone watches anime sitting in front of a computer. In the last year and a half MKV support along with DLNA started to
be found on many Blu-ray players and various other set top box style front ends.
So I built a media server that uses such devices in mostly theater style environments,that
can be accessed with a remote instead of a mouse and keyboard. But! that support is limited to 8-bit encodes.
    While Media Player Classic does a great job of playing 10-bit files , it's user interface
sets the U.I. back 20 years . And when sitting in a theater type environment the stark white
folder you have to use to choose what you want to watch just kills your eyes.
  If there was a Media Center style library that would launch my media in Media Player Classic
I would then be pacified till set top hardware caught up .And jump on the 10-bit band wagon as well .
 But I have yet to find one that works any where as smooth WMC7 or other set top players with a remote or mouse.
If you know of one then I would like to see it.

[larpo]

also, im not sure about vdpau support on hi10p(that's why this post is made), dont test it on hi10p

VDPAU doesn't support hi10p and it will just crash if you try. AFAIK adding support wouldn't even be possible due to limitations in nvidia's hw decoder implementations.

on the PC watching either 10-bit or 8-bit is ok but what about media-players? I mean hardware media-players which comes as box with Ethernet slot so you can connect it to NAS and watch HD anime on your huge TV-set. AFAIK there is no one such device on market now which can support 10-bit coding.

and

    Not everyone watches anime sitting in front of a computer. In the last year and a half MKV support along with DLNA started to
be found on many Blu-ray players and various other set top box style front ends.
So I built a media server that uses such devices in mostly theater style environments,that
can be accessed with a remote instead of a mouse and keyboard. But! that support is limited to 8-bit encodes.

This is the biggest issue. Decent laptop/dektop computer would still be able to play 10bit stuff without hw decoding (well, at least upto 720p), but with htpc and media streamer devices you are completely out of luck.

[DarthSpecial]

I think there's another issue here that isn't being addressed.  On many shows, particularly the older ones, there is a certain amount of detail and no more.  Whatever the width x length is on the DVD is the maximum that you're going to be able to pull off of it without getting an upscale that just wastes data space.  I don't know what this limitation is.  But I'm not in favor of needlessly wasting my storage space with downloads that don't have to be that big to play well.  Also, any file over 4.37 GB won't burn onto a standard DVD without using special procedures to chop it up, and doing that, saving multiple pieces, and reassembling and parity checking the result is a nuisance.  Since the original published DVD held the show in its VIDEO_TS file, and it was under 4.37 GB, I don't see any reason for anything to ever get any bigger than that.  (I've not seen this happening yet, but that's the direction this whole thing is heading.)  I'm already downloading shows that get some lag in the dialog without the CPU being dedicated to doing nothing other than running the player. 

[Aadieu]

SLOT B: Dedicated 720p 8bit, where are you??

And how about an exception that specifically states that Hi10P is *NOT* a great reason for bloatcoder munchkins like Coalgirls to happily turn their already ridiculous up-to-900mb 720p rips into over 1.1 gig 720p rips, and churn out 2+ gigabyte FullHDs. OR JUST BAN [COALGIRLS] FROM SLOTS A&B ENTIRELY ALREADY. Cause it's not just the size, it's the 0.00% quality gain + nasty habit of appropriating others' subs and stacking them onto their not in the least superior but MUCH more bloated encodes, and then getting credit like they actually did something.

Case in point: recently spent like 2 hours staring from 2 inches away at a 46" fullhd screen, comparing an 867mb not counting another 100mbs OP/ED Coalgirls (eclipse subs 720p) ep of FMA:B to the original 343mb Eclipse (720p, entire episode from start to finish, no separate OP/ED). Except for slightly WORSE colour saturation for Coalgirls, there wasn't a single damn difference... and it's like that every time, at best, or much worse than the smaller original in the worse cases... Thing is, though, the promise of more bitrate kills the original torrent (of which I just had one file accidentally in this case, others lost to computer failure), and we're forced to download 2-3 times more and then actually suffer worse quality. THAT SUCKS.

[bhus121]

There is no need to be quality fags. 1st of all you get to download all the encodes for free. So kindly stop harping about quality. Fansubbers should use their brains. They sub anime not only for fun but also for sharing with people who don't get access to anime in their country.They should see the bigger picture and at least take out dedicated 8bit 720p for every anime. 1080p 8 bit rips can be chucked. It should be cultivated as a standard practice for the coming 1 1/2 years .