Hi10P and 8-bit encodes

[kureshii]

They sub anime not only for fun but also for sharing with people who don't get access to anime in their country.

And who made you chief of fansubbing?

[DmonHiro]

Thing is, though, the promise of more bitrate kills the original torrent (of which I just had one file accidentally in this case, others lost to computer failure), and we're forced to download 2-3 times more and then actually suffer worse quality. THAT SUCKS.

Here's a crazy idea: don't download their releases. Nobody is holding a gun to your head. Also, just because you can't see the difference, doesn't mean everyone can't. You've got some nerve stating your opinion as facts.

[Temuthril]

Whatever the width x length is on the DVD is the maximum that you're going to be able to pull off of it without getting an upscale that just wastes data space.  I don't know what this limitation is.

720x480

Also, any file over 4.37 GB won't burn onto a standard DVD without using special procedures to chop it up, and doing that, saving multiple pieces, and reassembling and parity checking the result is a nuisance.  Since the original published DVD held the show in its VIDEO_TS file, and it was under 4.37 GB, I don't see any reason for anything to ever get any bigger than that.

Dual layers, Blu-Rays.

Also not many even rip DVDs these days, most do just BDs.

[ritterrunkel]

I didn't read through all replies so maybe I'm just repeating some arguments. I don't see any good reason for 10-bit encoding atm and here is why:
I can't play those files on my two laptops. One is a old PowerBook with no software support (VLC stopped supporting OSX 10.4 some time ago), the other is a Netbook with hardware video decoding chip which also doesn't support 10 bit videos. Someone here suggested I should get new hardware, but until recently I was unemployed and simply couldn't afford it.

What do we gain by using 10-bit encoding? Better efficiency, which means files that are a little smaller for similar perceived video quality. On the other hand bandwith and disk space are cheap, so I think if you want to have better quality the best way is to increase bitrate until you're satisfied. Those files will still play on all machines and everyone is happy. I like how the movie scene does it. They have strict encoding rules and non conforming releases are nuked. Those rules make sure all releases play on any software and hardware.

I don't want to stand in the way of early adopters, but please don't forget those of us that can't afford a new machine every two years.

[Jazzkatt]

If you are worried about space buy another hard drive . Space is not the issue here. the ISSUE is PLAYABILITY!

I think there's another issue here that isn't being addressed.  On many shows, particularly the older ones, there is a certain amount of detail and no more.  Whatever the width x length is on the DVD is the maximum that you're going to be able to pull off of it without getting an upscale that just wastes data space.  I don't know what this limitation is.  But I'm not in favor of needlessly wasting my storage space with downloads that don't have to be that big to play well.  Also, any file over 4.37 GB won't burn onto a standard DVD without using special procedures to chop it up, and doing that, saving multiple pieces, and reassembling and parity checking the result is a nuisance.  Since the original published DVD held the show in its VIDEO_TS file, and it was under 4.37 GB, I don't see any reason for anything to ever get any bigger than that.  (I've not seen this happening yet, but that's the direction this whole thing is heading.)  I'm already downloading shows that get some lag in the dialog without the CPU being dedicated to doing nothing other than running the player.

First you support 10-bit because it saves space. Now you support bloated 10-bit calling it quality.You really should be a politician . I bet you would even vote in favor of S.O.P.A. and I.P.A.
If the only release of the anime series we want is in 10-bit or worse (bloated 10-bit as is the case with Coalgirls) ,then YES you are holding a gun to our heads. Releasing fan subs without regard for those who watch them is stupid. ばか　
And I don't download your or CG's releases any more and I quit seeding them also. in fact I am in the process of replacing them all even if they are 8-bit. We should NOT support those who think they are too good to support us.

Thing is, though, the promise of more bitrate kills the original torrent (of which I just had one file accidentally in this case, others lost to computer failure), and we're forced to download 2-3 times more and then actually suffer worse quality. THAT SUCKS.

Here's a crazy idea: don't download their releases. Nobody is holding a gun to your head. Also, just because you can't see the difference, doesn't mean everyone can't. You've got some nerve stating your opinion as facts.

Duki3003 edit:Don't double post.

[kureshii]

If the only release of the anime series we want is in 10-bit or worse (bloated 10-bit as is the case with Coalgirls) ,then YES you are holding a gun to our heads. Releasing fan subs without regard for those who watch them is stupid.

I'm just going to leave this here for posterity, as a prime example of the oversized sense of entitlement some people have cultivated.

[ymmij12]

I (L) 10-bit(Y)

[garretn]

If the only release of the anime series we want is in 10-bit or worse (bloated 10-bit as is the case with Coalgirls) ,then YES you are holding a gun to our heads. Releasing fan subs without regard for those who watch them is stupid.

I'm just going to leave this here for posterity, as a prime example of the oversized sense of entitlement some people have cultivated.

Yeah, the entitlement is pretty ridiculous. At the same time, maybe simply taking a step back and asking yourself why this person was so angry might be a little more reasonable.

Looking at the original post in this thread and the poll options, and then the arguments in the thread itself, it seems like most of the pro 8-bitters -- including myself -- are really more debating whether its actually time for this poll yet, where the opening posts states it is time and doesn't actually ask that question. Maybe a new poll would be the better bet?

If software support, and to an extent hardware support, was better then it is in it's current state -- minding that codec packs and VLC only apply to certain (the same use case, really) use cases -- I'd probably vote for getting rid of the dedicated 8-bit slot too. But as it currently stands, it feels very much like we're -- as a community -- compromising a little too much in order to move forward with this at the present time.

All the same, I'll support any decision made. It's not my site, after all.

For the record, any belligerent person screaming in another person's home should probably expect a gun to their head. ^_^

[DeadlyOats]

I'm probably beating a dead horse to death-er...  Not everyone has the money to upgrade their equipment.  For example, I just built my first computer in 5 or 6 years.  The machine I watched anime on was a Pentium 4 machine with Ubuntu 11.04 (Natty), but with the "Classic" Gnome desktop, because it can't handle Ubuntu's new desktop, "Unity".  All of the software and codecs are up to date, but as it is, 8 bit playback is full of corruption of the video, because the hardware can barely handle it.  10 bit is impossible to watch on that old machine.

It took me 8 months to get the parts together to build my new machine, with an Intel i5 processor, but I'm single with no kids.  Imagine people with families trying to upgrade their hardware - in THIS economy....

I say make the changes at a later date, and then phase the changes in gradually over time.

There seems to be an assumption that everyone has upgraded their hardware, but that assumption should not be made.  NOT EVERYONE has new hardware.  Look at me.  I went from an Intel Pentium 4 machine to an Intel i5 based machine just this month, and look how long ago Pentiums were last thought about.....  I'll bet a lot of you guys are thinking that everyone have been using Core Duo's or whatnot....  I know people who stopped using a computer - at home (to surf the web)  (they go to the library and use the public PC's to check emails and whatnot) because their old Pentium III's don't support the latest web browsers, and they can't afford a new PC - yeah, in the United States - where I live.

[OnDeed]

If the only release of the anime series we want is in 10-bit or worse (bloated 10-bit as is the case with Coalgirls) ,then YES you are holding a gun to our heads. Releasing fan subs without regard for those who watch them is stupid.

I'm just going to leave this here for posterity, as a prime example of the oversized sense of entitlement some people have cultivated.

Yeah, the entitlement is pretty ridiculous. At the same time, maybe simply taking a step back and asking yourself why this person was so angry might be a little more reasonable. [...]

Maybe we should look at it this way: the people that argue for 8bit here don't argue for taking anything away. If they win, the other side of the trench will still retain the 10bit they wanted - because for hi10p offers, nothing will change from current practice.

OTOH, if the 10bit side wins, 8bit offers will get purged, meaning a loss for the 8bit side.

To put it bluntly, the people with the "quality 1st"/"I love 10bit" votes actually propose to take something away from the others. Maybe they don't always realise that they act a little selfishly and lack consideration for others, but in any case proponents of this opinion should exercise more humility. This is why the people arguing for keeping 8bit have right to be angry at the hi10p crowd.

[DmonHiro]

Yeah, the entitlement is pretty ridiculous. At the same time, maybe simply taking a step back and asking yourself why this person was so angry might be a little more reasonable.

I'm afraid you are wrong. It is irrelevant why that person was angry because they have no right to ask for pretty much anything. In the fansubbing world, you take what you get, and if you don't like it, you do it yourself. Not you, me, or anyone else has the right to dictate how anyone else releases their files. If I want to release a show that has never been available in 10bit black and white video, that is my own business, and you can either download it or not. Sure, you may make angry posts, but you have right to demand anything. I'm noticing that people who want 8bit are demanding quite a lot these day: dual releases (8 bit and 10 bit), 8 bit only, etc. Quite funny, if you ask me.

[Slasha]

    Not everyone watches anime sitting in front of a computer. In the last year and a half MKV support along with DLNA started to
be found on many Blu-ray players and various other set top box style front ends.
So I built a media server that uses such devices in mostly theater style environments,that
can be accessed with a remote instead of a mouse and keyboard. But! that support is limited to 8-bit encodes.
    While Media Player Classic does a great job of playing 10-bit files , it's user interface
sets the U.I. back 20 years . And when sitting in a theater type environment the stark white
folder you have to use to choose what you want to watch just kills your eyes.
  If there was a Media Center style library that would launch my media in Media Player Classic
I would then be pacified till set top hardware caught up .And jump on the 10-bit band wagon as well .
 But I have yet to find one that works any where as smooth WMC7 or other set top players with a remote or mouse.
If you know of one then I would like to see it.

http://www.team-mediaportal.com/
I just finished building a HTPC that utilizes this software. If set up correctly it plays 10bit flawless, but you can also let it use MPC as external player. I also recommend to use it with the streamed MP design plugin, looks really cool

[OnDeed]

@DmonHiro

1) This topic is about how will bakabt pick stuff to be allowed. Nowhere is this a discussion about what encoders should or should not do.

2) It's an open question though if everybody really follows this sort of "ethos" you describe, since it is a bit on the conceited-dick side in fact. (no offense...)
Disclaimer: I do encode in 10-bit. (In SD only though. While I might get in a sort of a dilemma about it if I was about to release a HD rip in 10bit, that didn't happen yet... so I'm still entitled to patronise here I think.)

[DmonHiro]

OnDeen, you are right, of course. I was just answering to the posts about entitlement.

[garretn]

Yeah, the entitlement is pretty ridiculous. At the same time, maybe simply taking a step back and asking yourself why this person was so angry might be a little more reasonable.

I'm afraid you are wrong. It is irrelevant why that person was angry because they have no right to ask for pretty much anything. In the fansubbing world, you take what you get, and if you don't like it, you do it yourself. Not you, me, or anyone else has the right to dictate how anyone else releases their files. If I want to release a show that has never been available in 10bit black and white video, that is my own business, and you can either download it or not. Sure, you may make angry posts, but you have right to demand anything. I'm noticing that people who want 8bit are demanding quite a lot these day: dual releases (8 bit and 10 bit), 8 bit only, etc. Quite funny, if you ask me.

What are you talking about? I was calling the person wrong, not agreeing with him.

Edit: Oh, I get it. No, my post was trying to agree with kureshii that the post from Jazzkatt was ridiculous. That's why I quoted kureshii and not Jazzkatt.

[tyrionlannister]

If the only release of the anime series we want is in 10-bit or worse (bloated 10-bit as is the case with Coalgirls) ,then YES you are holding a gun to our heads. Releasing fan subs without regard for those who watch them is stupid.

I'm just going to leave this here for posterity, as a prime example of the oversized sense of entitlement some people have cultivated.

Yeah, the entitlement is pretty ridiculous. At the same time, maybe simply taking a step back and asking yourself why this person was so angry might be a little more reasonable. [...]

Maybe we should look at it this way: the people that argue for 8bit here don't argue for taking anything away. If they win, the other side of the trench will still retain the 10bit they wanted - because for hi10p offers, nothing will change from current practice.

OTOH, if the 10bit side wins, 8bit offers will get purged, meaning a loss for the 8bit side.

To put it bluntly, the people with the "quality 1st"/"I love 10bit" votes actually propose to take something away from the others. Maybe they don't always realise that they act a little selfishly and lack consideration for others, but in any case proponents of this opinion should exercise more humility. This is why the people arguing for keeping 8bit have right to be angry at the hi10p crowd.

The thing you have to remember is that the current situation, 8-bit and 10-bit coexisting, was always considered to be a temporary measure. If you read the decision to allow these two types of releases, it was said that a reevaluation will happen when there is widespread software support for 10-bit.

So you can't say that the present situation is the standard, it's just a temporary and transient stage towards equal treatment of releases. This temporary situation is really a favor done to the community, in order to help them update their playback solutions, which for reasonably powerful computers now work without issues.

In conclusion, you wouldn't be taking anything away but a temporary exception.

[Jackstick]

I come to BakaBT when I want to weed out the inferior.  I think you guys are losing sight of the purpose of BakaBT if you expect them to cater to *everyone*.

Quality doesn't come without change and sacrifice.  You may have to seed more than you want to, you may have to use a different video program, and you may have to keep your damn plugins up to date.  If your computer sucks, you may have to buy a new one or just stick with SD or 720p video for now. 

Also, you need to have reasonable expectations.  Netbooks and tablets are not meant for high quality high definition videos, and due to their screen size they probably never will be meant for HD video.  Laptops from 2007 are going to have trouble keeping up with today's technology.  Remember that you are getting these videos for *free*.

[garretn]

-snip-

Maybe we should look at it this way: the people that argue for 8bit here don't argue for taking anything away. If they win, the other side of the trench will still retain the 10bit they wanted - because for hi10p offers, nothing will change from current practice.

OTOH, if the 10bit side wins, 8bit offers will get purged, meaning a loss for the 8bit side.

To put it bluntly, the people with the "quality 1st"/"I love 10bit" votes actually propose to take something away from the others. Maybe they don't always realise that they act a little selfishly and lack consideration for others, but in any case proponents of this opinion should exercise more humility. This is why the people arguing for keeping 8bit have right to be angry at the hi10p crowd.

The thing you have to remember is that the current situation, 8-bit and 10-bit coexisting, was always considered to be a temporary measure. If you read the decision to allow these two types of releases, it was said that a reevaluation will happen when there is widespread software support for 10-bit.

So you can't say that the present situation is the standard, it's just a temporary and transient stage towards equal treatment of releases. This temporary situation is really a favor done to the community, in order to help them update their playback solutions, which for reasonably powerful computers now work without issues.

In conclusion, you wouldn't be taking anything away but a temporary exception.

I really have to agree with what was said in the quoted reply. The poll probably should have been something more along the lines of whether or not the transient stage is complete, along with options related to it. Such as --

• The transition stage should be considered complete, remove the dedicated 8-bit slots
• The transition stage should be re-evaluated in 6 months
• The transition stage should be re-evaluated in a year

I personally would have voted for 6 months if the above poll actually existed. My personal reasons being that my hardware is fine, but my software (A powerful HTPC, which is just a normal PC in a fancy box, running XBMC) isn't there yet.

Duki3003 edit: Trim your quotes!

[OnDeed]

Actually, libav/ffmpeg still haven't fixed the incorrect colorspace conversion (10bit to 8bit dithering) that is used in MPlayer/MPlayer2/VLC/ffdshow. Similarly, the conversion hasn't to this point been fixed in the official x264 tree (you have to use patched builds to encode 10-bit properly). These are known for 4 months.

So I don't think the software landscape can really be called mature, even if these issues aren't critical.

[mikezilla2]

slightly off topic  but when do you think youl have the right hardware to make 1080p 10 bit encodes ondeed ?