Author Topic: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes  (Read 64100 times)

Offline eliador

  • Member
  • Posts: 5
Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #220 on: December 26, 2011, 11:20:02 PM »
I come to BakaBT when I want to weed out the inferior.  I think you guys are losing sight of the purpose of BakaBT if you expect them to cater to *everyone*.

Quality doesn't come without change and sacrifice.  You may have to seed more than you want to, you may have to use a different video program, and you may have to keep your damn plugins up to date.  If your computer sucks, you may have to buy a new one or just stick with SD or 720p video for now. 

Also, you need to have reasonable expectations.  Netbooks and tablets are not meant for high quality high definition videos, and due to their screen size they probably never will be meant for HD video.  Laptops from 2007 are going to have trouble keeping up with today's technology.  Remember that you are getting these videos for *free*.
i don't see the point here : this post is about 8/10 bits encoding and how the community (fansubbers, "provider" like BakaBT and us, the public/fan) can handle/cope with the transition ... if it happens. we can migrate to 10-bit without losing SD releases : it seems to me you think we'll get only HD releases (so the technical issues some have with 10-bits decoding AND a large resolution that some hardware *like my netbook* can not handle).

as for me i'll be a target audience for SD 480p and HD 720p on 10-bit the day any player can handle it with GPU acceleration : i still don't see the point of 1080p even if BR source exists (maybe for movie and TV shows, even on these size is too much and the few times i watched 1080p vs 720p i really didn't see the difference *it was on a big TV*)

that's the problem i've got with your post : you mix 8/10 bits and SD/HD. and for the free argument ... well to me it's kind of "end of discussion, please upgrade and don't complain" one that i really don't like  :-\
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 03:05:05 AM by eliador »

Offline OnDeed

  • Member
  • Posts: 448
  • Uploader account for #OnDeed@irc.rizon.net
Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #221 on: December 27, 2011, 01:10:40 AM »
slightly off topic  but when do you think youl have the right hardware to make 1080p 10 bit encodes ondeed ?

It's actually not as much a problem of hardware available - I could do blurays (but right now I was wondering if 8bit would be perhaps better after all). But I don't have many candidates for such rips, except Bubblegum Crisis (now, if Zeorymer for example appeared on the web...). And maybe some stuff Dragon191 wanted to release, should he decide to not do it...
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 01:15:05 AM by OnDeed »

Offline erejnion

  • Member
  • Posts: 11
  • please excuse my inexperience~
Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #222 on: December 27, 2011, 02:54:10 AM »
The poll probably should have been something more along the lines of whether or not the transient stage is complete, along with options related to it. Such as --

  • The transition stage should be considered complete, remove the dedicated 8-bit slots
  • The transition stage should be re-evaluated in 6 months
  • The transition stage should be re-evaluated in a year

I personally would have voted for 6 months if the above poll actually existed. My personal reasons being that my hardware is fine, but my software (A powerful HTPC, which is just a normal PC in a fancy box, running XBMC) isn't there yet.
Agreed. For the record, with the risk of repeating myself, I would vote for "6 months" too.

Offline zrdb

  • Member
  • Posts: 123
Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #223 on: December 27, 2011, 04:09:54 AM »
The shit you say 10 bit is better than 8 bit-I've been to numerous forums debating this sordid subject-the supposed advantages-1-reduced banding-fact, I've seen numerous 8 bit encodes with little or no banding while I've seen 10 bit ones that looked like rainbows. 2-smaller file sizes-I've seen numerous 10 bit encodes that were 60 to 100 megs bigger than 8 bit ones which-incidently looked way better than the 10 bit ones. So shit on 10 bit being better than 8 bit encodes-all it did was break playback compatibility with hardware media players like the Popcorn Hour A300, anime subbers are known to be elitist stuckup jerks who jump on the newest gold plated Cadillac that drives by just because it's shiny and brand new-legends in their own minds. So again-bullshit on 10 bit encoding being superior to 8 bit.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 04:12:53 AM by zrdb »

Offline Aerah

  • Member
  • Posts: 61
  • [h264][1080p][40Mbit][MKV][FLAC]
Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #224 on: December 27, 2011, 04:35:18 AM »
In the spirit of "elitist stuckup jerks", it would make sense to completely get rid of AVI/XVID encodes as 8-bit is the new XVID...
Intel / AMD / NVIDIA
MPC:HC

Offline parusit

  • Member
  • Posts: 48
Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #225 on: December 27, 2011, 05:48:10 AM »
After quite a while seeing on this topic, I would say in short (my sum up opinion)

'10-bit all the way' policy is still a bit premature.


But the deepest of my mind saying "I want whatever method that would make the accepting process fastest"

ps : the amount of 10-bit torrents on bakabt is just about 4 pages of browsing for now.

Offline RedSuisei

  • Member
  • Posts: 326
Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #226 on: December 27, 2011, 07:01:11 AM »
@zrdb

1) Coming to this thread while bashing whichever option you don't like with insults and angry posts won't make your cause be heard, most likely it'll just show how immature you are.

2) This thread is talking about whether to 'treat 10-bit and 8-bit equally', which means that the 10-bit and 8-bit will be equally compared as well before acceptance. If the 10-bit is better, then take 10-bit. If 8-bit is, then take 8-bit. Similar to the Xvid/H.264 case, if the Xvid rip better than the H.264 (which happens in some rare cases), then take Xvid. So there's no reason for angry posts like yours; if the 10-bit really is worse then it won't be accepted anyway. (Though I'm really wondering, can you point out the 10-bit rip which is larger AND has more banding than the 8-bit? So far I've seen none, especially stuff accepted on BakaBT).

For "6 months wait period", it's already been 6 months since 10-bit rips first started to come out. In the end though, I don't really care the end result, since 10-bit's acceptance won't be affected by 8-bit of lower quality anyway.

Offline tripodal

  • Member
  • Posts: 7
Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #227 on: December 27, 2011, 09:26:07 AM »
I come to BakaBT for the best quality.  Seeing as in some cases currently the best possibly quality is only achievable with 10bit, the choice should be simple, 10bit. (With the uncommon exception of the superior 8-bit.)

Sure there was a learning curve in getting 10bit to work, and it certainly wont play on all of my hardware, but that' what the lower resolution releases are for, are they not?  I believer that the vast majority of Laptop PC's (core2 duo +) and all desktops with 2 or more cores should be able to play 10bit @1080. (This describes 3 year old hardware.) If there are issues with playback seek help, I have the feeling there are more than a few ubernerds here who're happy to assist.

I will never have sympathy for users of netbooks and tablets.
They sing the same song in every forum - my netbook won't do x, I can't afford a PC.

If the switch to 10bit leaves you unable to watch 1080p/720p releases you will suddenly have a lot more free time.  I suggest a part time job to fill that void while you gather funds for replacing your disposable netbook with modern hardware. This time be sure to do some research before you unknowingly handicap yourself.

Offline christantoan

  • Member
  • Posts: 5
Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #228 on: December 27, 2011, 09:27:03 AM »
I'll go with whatever the staffs pick (even though I voted for second option). Since they are the one who will do most of the work. But if I can't play it, I'll find another source. Since technology is always moving forward anyway. :D
For me it's always "If you don't like it, then don't get it"

BTW what it is going to be called, Hi10P or 10 bit? (I choose Hi10P because it looks cooler :D)
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 09:35:02 AM by christantoan »

Offline fullblue

  • Member
  • Posts: 124
Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #229 on: December 27, 2011, 10:03:45 AM »
Transition should be made slowly, step by step. Such a sudden transition will only result to outrage. My machine can play 10-bit but the software is lacking. Either it plays properly with occasional "auto quit" or produce a lot of white noise that it hurts my ears.

Offline parusit

  • Member
  • Posts: 48
Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #230 on: December 27, 2011, 11:20:42 AM »
If the switch to 10bit leaves you unable to watch 1080p/720p releases you will suddenly have a lot more free time.  I suggest a part time job to fill that void while you gather funds for replacing your disposable netbook with modern hardware. This time be sure to do some research before you unknowingly handicap yourself.

lol
That's harsh (no offense)  ;D

Offline Aadieu

  • Member
  • Posts: 103
Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #231 on: December 27, 2011, 11:31:32 AM »
Thing is, though, the promise of more bitrate kills the original torrent (of which I just had one file accidentally in this case, others lost to computer failure), and we're forced to download 2-3 times more and then actually suffer worse quality. THAT SUCKS.

Here's a crazy idea: don't download their releases. Nobody is holding a gun to your head. Also, just because you can't see the difference, doesn't mean everyone can't. You've got some nerve stating your opinion as facts.

Here's a crazier idea: I might actually have told the truth about crawling over it comparing it virtually pixel to pixel for a couple hours. Cause I suffer from apparently compulsive idle curiosity. This shit's seriously pretty identical in quality, barring colour temperature (imho, original Eclipse was slightly better than Coalgirls w/Eclipse subs). Same amount of banding, even, and in the same places.

As to the gun to my head, well they sorta are... I did mention how a hi-bitrate coalgirls release tends to kill swarms for lower bitrate torrents using the same subs, yeah? Dead swarm = can't download it. Duh.

In any case, Hi10P offers yet another new way to bloat filesize via half-assed encode (yeah, a WELLMADE 10bit encode might actually lead to smaller files... but using the exact same settings, filesize will increase exactly 25%). As to the problem of bad encodes getting ARCHIVED on here (see bakabt's mission statement) while better versions effectively disappear when nyaa's swarms die, I just feel that the arrival of a technology that *can* decrease filesize but will clearly increase bloat in bad encodes is a damn good time to review how we evaluate and approve releases.

Do recall that bakabt is supposed to be choosing to archive THE BEST. And Coalgirls makes comparison extra-easy by using other people's subs. As such, any review of any possible Coalgirls offer simply MUST contain a comparison with the original subbers' releases and it MUST be significantly better to warrant approval.

Else, we're not just only wasting space and bandwidth, but also passing out credit to those who don't deserve it and disheartening fansubbers by slapping on the tag [Bloatgirls] for doing nothing productive whatsoever, yet removing the [Original Translator] tag, which is who actually deserves recognition. Some other BDrippers at least make a double tag, and some don't even take credit in filenames at all. And yeah, there IS in fact a crapload of newfags who believe Coalgirls is a fansubber, and most Coalgirls watchers never know what group made the subs for the shows that they liked.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 12:11:56 PM by Aadieu »

Offline Temuthril

  • Member
  • Posts: 1140
Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #232 on: December 27, 2011, 11:50:45 AM »
In the spirit of "elitist stuckup jerks", it would make sense to completely get rid of AVI/XVID encodes as 8-bit is the new XVID...
That has been done some time ago though.

In the past XviD/AVI versions could be uploaded and they had separate slots, which doesn't happen anymore.

Offline Aadieu

  • Member
  • Posts: 103
Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #233 on: December 27, 2011, 12:16:15 PM »
Thing is, though, the promise of more bitrate kills the original torrent (of which I just had one file accidentally in this case, others lost to computer failure), and we're forced to download 2-3 times more and then actually suffer worse quality. THAT SUCKS.

Here's a crazy idea: don't download their releases. Nobody is holding a gun to your head. Also, just because you can't see the difference, doesn't mean everyone can't. You've got some nerve stating your opinion as facts.

P.S. mate, unless someone else is masquerading as you, in a discussion between you yourself and a Coalgirls representative, BOTH of you agreed about the bloat problem and crap encoding.

"DmonHiro says:

 “[Coalgirls member:] We’d rather waste your bandwidth than our time.”
Wow… that’s some awesomely brutal honesty right there. Also really funny to read."

Offline Zom-B

  • Member
  • Posts: 57
Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #234 on: December 27, 2011, 12:22:45 PM »
I strongly oppose removing 8-bit releases.

My current system (Core2 Quad 2.5GHz) is just capable of playing 1080p 8-bit releases, and I'm not planning to buy a new system for at least another 12 months. In fact, I even found one 8-bit release that I can't even play properly: Roberta's Blood Trail, at the flashback scenes where they add a lot of animated noise.

It would help if codecs would utilize more cores, but currently they don't. (using CCCP)

I'm already disappointed that there's no 8-bit release anymore for Puella Magi Madoka Magica.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 12:30:47 PM by Zom-B »

Offline RedSuisei

  • Member
  • Posts: 326
Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #235 on: December 27, 2011, 12:46:07 PM »
Wow someone's got a grudge.
@Aadieu: I'm no fan of Coalgirls myself (as in, unless there's nothing better than theirs, then I won't take theirs, but I will if there's no better option), but your statements are truly ridiculous.
Quote from: Aadieu
but using the exact same settings, filesize will increase exactly 25%
Ever tried encoding 8-bit vs 10-bit yourself? If you haven't, then stop talking. I've done several tests back when 10-bit was just introduced, and in fact, for most sources, same setting still give smaller filesize for 10-bit. This decrease may be large or small, depending on the source. There are sometimes cases where 10-bit do produce larger filesize, but this is usually happen on very grainy anime with very low crf (as a comparison, Macross DYRl, which was grainy as hell, is still smaller in 10-bit than it is in 8-bit at crf 15, though it was only smaller by 2%).
Quote from: Aadieu
review how we evaluate and approve releases.
Have you ever participated in a comparison done here? I have done so a couple of time and there's no need to review how BakaBT evaluate and approve releases. In fact, if your "review" means to solely ban Coalgirls, then it's much worse than what we have currently, which sticks to "whichever is better, we'll take it."
Quote from: Aadieu
Do recall that bakabt is supposed to be choosing to archive THE BEST. And Coalgirls makes comparison extra-easy by using other people's subs. As such, any review of any possible Coalgirls offer simply MUST contain a comparison with the original subbers' releases and it MUST be significantly better to warrant approval.
They do, in fact. In most BD comparison I've seen the comparison to the TV rips is done as well.
Quote from: Aadieu
passing out credit to those who don't deserve it and disheartening fansubbers by slapping on the tag [Bloatgirls] for doing nothing productive whatsoever, yet removing the [Original Translator] tag, which is who actually deserves recognition
Ever went to Coalgirls' site? They explicitly state whose subs they use there. The torrent offers on Baka also provides info on that (at least for the recent ones, I seem to faintly remember older ones sometimes don't have those info). They removed the original group's tag, but they don't claim that it was their subs. In the first place, who are you to complain about the work that other people do, and not your own work? Oh, and Coalgirls aren't the only one who use other group's subs, many other does as well.
Quote from: Aadieu
newfags who believe Coalgirls is a fansubber, and most Coalgirls watchers never know what group made the subs for the shows that they liked.
Is that Coalgirls' fault? They do state whose subs they use on their site, the info is also available here, if people still don't know whose subs they use, then it's their fault, not Coalgirls.

And as you say, this site is dedicated to quality. If the best quality happens to be using other's subs, then so be it. If Coalgirls happen to be the best quality, then theirs will be taken. If theirs aren't the best, then it won't be taken. Simple as that. So far you've only been saying about their release of FMA:B which, according to you, is inferior to the TV rips (which won't be allowed to be uploaded here in the first place), but that doesn't mean it holds true for every single one of their releases.

Oh, also, this is a thread about what to do about 10-bit and 8-bit offers, not a Coalgirls bashing thread. Feel free to bash them on their site if you want.

@Zom-B: Recent CCCP has multi-threaded version of ffdshow and LAV Filters.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 01:05:19 PM by RedSuisei »

Offline Aadieu

  • Member
  • Posts: 103
Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #236 on: December 27, 2011, 01:05:13 PM »

Quote from: Aadieu
passing out credit to those who don't deserve it and disheartening fansubbers by slapping on the tag [Bloatgirls] for doing nothing productive whatsoever, yet removing the [Original Translator] tag, which is who actually deserves recognition
Ever went to Coalgirls' site? They explicitly state whose subs they use there. The torrent offers on Baka also provides info on that (at least for the recent ones, I seem to faintly remember older ones sometimes don't have those info). They removed the original group's tag, but they don't claim that it was their subs. In the first place, who are you to complain about the work that other people do, and not your own work? Oh, and Coalgirls aren't the only one who use other group's subs, many other does as well.
Quote from: Aadieu
newfags who believe Coalgirls is a fansubber, and most Coalgirls watchers never know what group made the subs for the shows that they liked.
Is that Coalgirls' fault? They do state whose subs they use on their site, the info is also available here, if people still don't know whose subs they use, then it's their fault, not Coalgirls.

Indeed, is that Coalgirl's fault? the [TAGS] that don't name the fansubber obviously have shit-all to do with it.

Obviously, posting credit in your blog is a far better way of crediting work than, say: "LastExile 720p Complete (Zero-Raws - english subtitles muxed from a4e and aniboters)"  {actual folder name in actual torrent, with admittedly not-so-great video quality... but still! }

As to uploading BDs, yeah, some people actually call for comparisons to TVrips, but most of the time, that comparison is reduced to "ooh, more bitrate woohoo pick that one!".

Offline RedSuisei

  • Member
  • Posts: 326
Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #237 on: December 27, 2011, 01:10:17 PM »
Indeed, is that Coalgirl's fault? the [TAGS] that don't name the fansubber obviously have shit-all to do with it.

Obviously, posting credit in your blog is a far better way of crediting work than, say: "LastExile 720p Complete (Zero-Raws - english subtitles muxed from a4e and aniboters)"  {actual folder name in actual torrent, with admittedly not-so-great video quality... but still! }

As to uploading BDs, yeah, some people actually call for comparisons to TVrips, but most of the time, that comparison is reduced to "ooh, more bitrate woohoo pick that one!".
Then feel free to ban every single re-releaser from your download list. Ban Coalgirls, THORA, Doki (they sometimes use others' subs, e.g. Madoka) etc. Me, I'd prefer quality. Note that most of the real quality fag also do a research on the subs that the re-releasers use, so it's not as if the work of the original group went unnoticed.

And you definitely have never participated to any comparison in this site if you can still say that.

Offline Aerah

  • Member
  • Posts: 61
  • [h264][1080p][40Mbit][MKV][FLAC]
Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #238 on: December 27, 2011, 04:27:33 PM »
^ It is true that 'size = quality' is one of the easier comparisons one can make.

Additionally the whole "we benefited from 10-bit, our file sizes are as big or bigger now!" is a sign of needing to find a new distributor to download from.

*snip*
Stop using MadVR... (this is an assumption, it seems popular now but it is bad performance wise)

It is surprising how many performance issues can be fixed with "use DXVA when possible", "don't use VLC", "user CoreAVC", "use EVR:CP on V/7/8", "don't use MadVR"
Trading performance for quality one can do "don't deblock all frames" and "don't dither 10-bit" and "use Haali Renderer"

So 10-bit can be watched on lower-end (not low-end) hardware at a cost of quality.
That is some people will simply have to enjoy Hi10p at a significantly lower quality than Hi8P.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 04:45:05 PM by Aerah »
Intel / AMD / NVIDIA
MPC:HC

Offline DmonHiro

  • Member
  • Posts: 797
  • Neko The World
Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #239 on: December 27, 2011, 08:12:20 PM »
madvr does use more cpu, but the quality is much better. it also does not dither the video to 8 bit
Demons run when a good man goes to war. Night will fall and drown the sun, when a good man goes to war. Friendship dies and true love lies, night will fall and the dark will rise, when a good man goes to war. Demons run but count the cost, the battle's won, but the child is lost.