Hi10P and 8-bit encodes

[bobthedog]

Here's the problem, explained in a way I just hit upon whilst replying to a very nice PM by a helpful member of this forum.

Imagine a car which could ONLY be driven on the Left side of any road.
Or butter which could ONLY be spread on Bread.
Or a knife which could ONLY be used to cut Meat.
Would such products be considered acceptable for mass consumption?

And yet, that's what the 10-bit advocates are doing: forcing down the throats of anime-consumers something which can ONLY be guaranteed to work on a computer, properly equipped with the latest codecs.  If you want to (or need to, in the case of some people for medical reasons) watch your anime lying down in bed or relaxed in a comfy chair which would put your line of sight too far away from your computer, you are just Out Of Luck with these people.  They don't give a damn about anyone who doesn't fit THEIR profile of How Anime 'Should' Be Watched.  It's their way or the highway, and anyone who complains that they like to watch it a different way, sir, gets nothing but a cold sneer and a nasty word as some sort of tech-feeb who can't get on the train with all of the 'Good People' who watch their anime "properly."

Well I'm sorry, but there are those of us who want to watch OUR anime differently; we want to watch it on our TVs, through our Divx DVD-players or our Modded Xboxes or our WDTVs or our Popcorn Hours or WHATEVER it is we, in our misguided nonconformity, prefer to watch it on.  Excuse us for living.

(I'm just a wee bit worked up about this.)     

[RedSuisei]

madVR renderer (not the decoder) doesn't use CPU, it uses GPU. The decoder doesn't use much more CPU than ffdshow/LAVFilters (Of course there may be some slight difference in CPU usage between using madVR or not). And it does dither the video down to 8bit.

@Aerah: If your rig can't use madVR renderer for 10-bit then it also can't use madVR renderer for 8-bit. Since madVR itself does the processing in 16-bit (IIRC), 10-bit and 8-bit will give roughly the same load to the GPU (I say roughly because there are some stuff that does slightly make the two differ, but not by much I believe). And really, an old nvidia 9400MG with a measly 256MB of onboard video memory can use madVR on 10-bit, why can't you?

@bobthedog: There are also people who wants to watch 60mb anime, but BakaBT doesn't provide those since God knows when. By your logic, BakaBT should also accept those 60mb anime releases, since, you know, there are people who wants to watch their anime differently, right? Also, since years ago BakaBT never cared about hardware players anyway. And you can always connect a PC to your TV.

[garretn]

Here's the problem, explained in a way I just hit upon whilst replying to a very nice PM by a helpful member of this forum.

Imagine a car which could ONLY be driven on the Left side of any road.
Or butter which could ONLY be spread on Bread.
Or a knife which could ONLY be used to cut Meat.
Would such products be considered acceptable for mass consumption?

And yet, that's what the 10-bit advocates are doing: forcing down the throats of anime-consumers something which can ONLY be guaranteed to work on a computer, properly equipped with the latest codecs.  If you want to (or need to, in the case of some people for medical reasons) watch your anime lying down in bed or relaxed in a comfy chair which would put your line of sight too far away from your computer, you are just Out Of Luck with these people.  They don't give a damn about anyone who doesn't fit THEIR profile of How Anime 'Should' Be Watched.  It's their way or the highway, and anyone who complains that they like to watch it a different way, sir, gets nothing but a cold sneer and a nasty word as some sort of tech-feeb who can't get on the train with all of the 'Good People' who watch their anime "properly."

Well I'm sorry, but there are those of us who want to watch OUR anime differently; we want to watch it on our TVs, through our Divx DVD-players or our Modded Xboxes or our WDTVs or our Popcorn Hours or WHATEVER it is we, in our misguided nonconformity, prefer to watch it on.  Excuse us for living.

(I'm just a wee bit worked up about this.)     

I wish people wouldn't say stuff like this. Nobody is forcing anything down anyone's throat. The people that run this site have every right to do whatever they want with this site, end of story.

That said, some of us are trying to be reasonable about it when making our points. They, the site maintainers, have pointed out that hardware was never a consideration, but also pointed out that software was -- and that they believed software was where it needed to be. To me, this opens up software related arguments as it was clearly a consideration. People like me are simply attempting to have them reconsider the software point.

The BakaBT site really is excellent, and don't believe (staffers included!) that there are suitable alternatives for finding 8-bit content or what have you. That's part of what makes this site great, the site itself is set up and managed extremely well. I have found myself looking at other sites, and find it quite difficult to even know what you're getting half the time, until you have the content and can look directly. Please don't blindly link proving points in response to this, of course anyone can find what they're looking for if they really try, I'm simply pointing out that it can be a pain in the ass.

For the people I'm chewing out, of course I'm upset about this too -- but I have no delusions about who owns, operates, and maintains this place, and it's definitely not me.

[bobthedog]

I wish people wouldn't say stuff like this. Nobody is forcing anything down anyone's throat. The people that run this site have every right to do whatever they want with this site, end of story.

Yes they do - and you'll notice (or will you?) that I said NOTHING AT ALL about the people who run this site.  My post had NOTHING TO DO with BakaBT.

The BakaBT site really is excellent, and don't believe (staffers included!)

Why, yes it is!  And if you actually read my post, you'll see that NOWHERE IN IT did I say ANYTHING about BakaBT or the people who run it, or are members of it.

That's part of what makes this site great, the site itself is set up and managed extremely well.

Just what post did you (think you) read?!?  Not mine, as written, certainly...

For the people I'm chewing out, of course I'm upset about this too -- but I have no delusions about who owns, operates, and maintains this place, and it's definitely not me.

I don't know you; have no idea who you are; and I certainly didn't post anything about you - or about BakaBT or its staff.

YOU appear to be drawing conclusions and making inferences which were never made, or implied.

Paranoia will destroya.



Incidentally, @RedSuisei: your logic is comparing Apples and Kumquats.  Over 95% of the anime which BakaBT HAS is 8-bit.  So by your "logic," it should all be deleted, forthwith.  Furthermore, MY TV has one - exactly one - coaxial input and one composite input: did you wanna come over and hook up my PC to it?  Also,
will you be there to change the anime or pause it to read long/swift subs or when the phone rings?  (My PC is ten feet away from my TV, will you be there to do the legwork?)  This is EXACTLY what I meant about certain people thinking that everyone else on the planet lives as they do.  Thank you for helping to prove my point.     

[RedSuisei]

@bobthedog: ...If your post had nothing to do about BakaBT, then don't post here. This thread is only about how BakaBT handles 10-bit and 8-bit anime from now on. You sir, who posts stuff in such an obviously emotional manner, and whose post apparently doesn't even have anything to do about BakaBT, should kindly step out of this thread before you embarass yourself further. If you want to complain about the people who "forces down the throats" (I'm assuming you're talking about the releasers, since you're not talking about BakaBT, and the releasers are the one who actually made the files), then feel free to complain to their site, not here. It's not as if all releasers check this thread and see your complaints anyway (though I doubt that even if they do, they'd just follow what you want like that). If you're only using this thread as a means for venting anger, then again, do so elsewhere.

Oh and, as I've said repeatedly, BakaBT never considered removing all 8-bit releases. They are thinking about treating 10-bit and 8-bit equally, as in, whichever one is better will be taken. In the end, it's still about quality first, no matter whether it's 10-bit or 8-bit, large or small, Xvid or H.264. Please make sure you thoroughly understand this before you post again and embarass yourself further. Also, you can use a PC remote, they're cheap nowadays.

[bobthedog]

     Oh, I'm not embarrassed: after all, I'm not the one acting like a frustrated wee tinpot dictator who tells other people what opinions they should have.

I'm adult enough to accept that others might have differing opinions and not try to control them or silence them.  This is at the heart of my complaint, incidentally: people need the maturity to see that not everyone thinks as they do, or demand that it be so.  Have a lovely day.

[RedSuisei]

    Oh, I'm not embarrassed: after all, I'm not the one acting like a frustrated wee tinpot dictator who tells other people what opinions they should have.

I'm adult enough to accept that others might have differing opinions and not try to control them or silence them.  This is at the heart of my complaint, incidentally: people need the maturity to see that not everyone thinks as they do, or demand that it be so.  Have a lovely day.

Well, you don't act like a frustrated wee tinpot dictator who tells other people what opinions they should have. You act like a frustrated wee tinpot whiner who thinks they can tell people to cater to each and every one of their needs.

As I see it, you are the one who demand people to still stick to 8-bit to cater to your preference, and demand than everyone caters to your opinion, so yeah, you're not adult enough. Also, not adult enough to know better than to post unrelated things on a thread. Have a lovely, and hopefully not embarassing, day.

[bobthedog]

Oh dear...

Fine: you can have the Last Word.     

[OnDeed]

Oh and, as I've said repeatedly, BakaBT never considered removing all 8-bit releases. They are thinking about treating 10-bit and 8-bit equally, as in, whichever one is better will be taken.

Come on, if you put it like that, it looks like you are doing it intentionally to be demagogic or something.

It *does* mean removing 8bit. Calling it "equal treatment" is nice and fluffy, but it is about removing 8bit.
Of course, if there is no 10bit to replace it, teh particular 8bit will stay. However right now, for every 10-bit uploaded, under the current practice, there would be a place for an 8-bit fallback for the "unwashed masses".
If you implement your "equal treatment", there won't be no fallbacks. The only way for an 8bit release to be accepted if there already is a 10-bit offer would be for it to eliminate the 10-bit one in the evaluation. Similarly, any 8-bit release that will fail to over-merit a 10-bit one will get eliminated.

So yeah, 8-bit *does get removed*. Calling it equal treatment is hypocritical, because you/we (10-bit enabled dudes) won't lose anything, while the "equaly treated" non-10bit dudes will lose the ability to grab torrents that got their 8-bit versions nuked by 10bit ones.

[RedSuisei]

Come on, if you put it like that, it looks like you are doing it intentionally to be demagogic or something.

It *does* mean removing 8bit. Calling it "equal treatment" is nice and fluffy, but it is about removing 8bit.
Of course, if there is no 10bit to replace it, teh particular 8bit will stay. However right now, for every 10-bit uploaded, under the current practice, there would be a place for an 8-bit fallback for the "unwashed masses".
If you implement your "equal treatment", there won't be no fallbacks. The only way for an 8bit release to be accepted if there already is a 10-bit offer would be for it to eliminate the 10-bit one in the evaluation. Similarly, any 8-bit release that will fail to over-merit a 10-bit one will get eliminated.

So yeah, 8-bit *does get removed*. Calling it equal treatment is hypocritical, because you/we (10-bit enabled dudes) won't lose anything, while the "equaly treated" non-10bit dudes will lose the ability to grab torrents which got 8-bit versions nuked by 10bit ones.

I thought I say "whichever one is better would be taken" there? As I see it, that's the point of equally treating 10-bit and 8-bit releases. Equal treatment, means whichever one is better, will be taken. You definitely can't say the current one is "equal treatment," seeing that if the best 10-bit is of lower quality than the best 8-bit, the 10-bit won't be accepted, but if the best 8-bit is of lower quality than the best 10-bit, then the 8-bit will still be accepted. Equal? Not in my book. What about this: If the best 10-bit is better than the best 8-bit, then the 10-bit will be accepted. Conversely, if the best 8-bit is better than the best 10-bit, then the 8-bit will be accepted. Equal, no? At least it is in my book.

Of course, I also never said anything about equally treating 10-bit enabled dudes and non-10bit enabled dudes, I was talking about treating the releases themselves. If BakaBT is supposed to treat all of their users equally, then as I said, they should also accept ultra LQ releases since some people prefer those, or can only get those (I know a lot of my friends who are stuck with 512kbps internet). And I thought I also say "never considered removing all 8-bit releases", which implies that BakaBT won't remove them all, but some would be removed if it does warrant removal, which, as you said, some of the 8-bit *does get removed*.

[garretn]

@bobthedog I apologize, I won't make any further assumptions that your posts to a thread are related to said thread. My bad.

@RedSuisei Yeah, that's related to what I was getting at about other sites usually sucking eggs. With my HTPC (a PC in a fancy box with a remote, but using software such as XBMC/Plex/Boxee or related), I find the 8-bit slot next to the 10-bit invaluable until 10-bit support is mature enough in such (popular!) software that it's no longer needed. At the moment such support does exist in either work-around or otherwise buggy manners, and can likely be expected to mature within 6 months to a year.

@OnDeed I would call that equal treatment (or in other words, fair treatment), honestly. If a better 8-bit encode exists then a 10-bit one, it'd win out. It's really not about if its fair to the users of the site.

It does make sense that people wouldn't want to split a seeding pool, or making staff do extra work accepting multiple versions of the same anime, so it's very understandable that they wouldn't want to allow this forever, at least if I understand the motivation for all of this correctly.

Still though, all I'm really asking for is extending the temporary concession due to lack of software support, since software support isn't there yet in my (and seemingly others in this thread) personal opinion.

I can see where people are coming from in regards to hardware support, but honestly, quality has never really meshed with legacy hardware (such as old laptops). On the other side of the same coin, I do agree that supporting a currently CPU-dependent format is a little harsh, as hardware acceleration does exist for high quality current formats, that's totally lost with 10-bit -- effectively excluding devices and laptops that are low-power and built with vdpau or similar to compensate. Honestly though, that's probably asking too much for a site about quality.

[DmonHiro]

Well I'm sorry, but there are those of us who want to watch OUR anime differently; we want to watch it on our TVs, through our Divx DVD-players or our Modded Xboxes or our WDTVs or our Popcorn Hours or WHATEVER it is we, in our misguided nonconformity, prefer to watch it on.  Excuse us for living.
(I'm just a wee bit worked up about this.)     

But nobody is saying you shouldn't watch anime like that. This isn't even the topic here. You can watch anime any way you want, but on BakaBT, it's expected to keep only the best quality. If that best quality is 10bit, then it should be kept.
Also, why don't you just connect your PC to your TV?

madVR renderer (not the decoder) doesn't use CPU, it uses GPU. The decoder doesn't use much more CPU than ffdshow/LAVFilters (Of course there may be some slight difference in CPU usage between using madVR or not). And it does dither the video down to 8bit.

Well, my MPC-HC uses more CPU with madVR then with anything else, so that's what I meant. Also, madVR is the only one that DOESN'T dither to 8bit for me.

[RedSuisei]

Also, madVR is the only one that DOESN'T dither to 8bit for me.

They do, otherwise you won't be able to watch anything without a video card that supports 10-bit output and a 10-bit display. madVR dithers the video to the display's bit-depth after alll of it's processing is done. Unless, of course, you're talking about madVR being capable of accepting 10-bit input without having to be dithered by the video decoder, in which case though, madVR will still dither at the end.

@garretn: I can agree with your problem there. IMO it's always possible to use other solutions, especially since XBMC has been known to be quite behind compared to the typical playback software. IIRC Daiz linked about DSPlayer which should play 10-bit, but I don't know how well it works. IIRC Mediaportal can also use MPC-HC as an external player.

[bobthedog]

I love all people in the world (even the bad ones) and especially all the truly wonderful people here at BakaBT!

 

@garretn: No problemo, mi amigo.

@RedSuisei: Yes, you are Wonderful too, in your way...

@OnDeed: 10/10.  Exactement.  Spot on.

I am just following the principle so beautifully stated by doll_licca: if the purpose of subbing anime is for the maximum number of people to be able to SEE it, then anything which EXCLUDES people defeats that purpose.  Furthermore (she pointed out), trying to ensure maximum compatibility across the widest spectrum provides the largest viewing base.  Ipso facto.

To quote my good friend Vash: Love and Peace, people.  `Tis the season.  Love and Peace!

[RedSuisei]

I am just following the principle so beautifully stated by doll_licca: if the purpose of subbing anime is for the maximum number of people to be able to SEE it, then anything which EXCLUDES people defeats that purpose.  Furthermore (she pointed out), trying to ensure maximum compatibility across the widest spectrum provides the largest viewing base.  Ipso facto.

While I agree about doll_licca's idealism, it should be noted that people release stuff with differing ideals. Some people like doll_licca wants their release to be enjoyed by as many people as possible. Some, instead, wants their release to be the best release ever made, which most of time means it inevitably can only be played by people with proper hardware support and enough bandwidth. Of course, it's also possible to make multiple releases, but for people (like me), even working on one episode is already time-consuming (considering I mostly work on stuff which requires complete timing overhaul, compelete typesetting from scratch, editing and TLC, and uses old DVDs which are filled with problems requiring proper fix, and all of that by myself), and uploading them on such a limited bandwidth also requires a lot of patience. As you said, you should've been adult enough to accept the differences in people's opinion and not demand others to do as you want.

[Aerah]

madVR renderer (not the decoder) doesn't use CPU, it uses GPU. The decoder doesn't use much more CPU than ffdshow/LAVFilters (Of course there may be some slight difference in CPU usage between using madVR or not). And it does dither the video down to 8bit.

@Aerah: If your rig can't use madVR renderer for 10-bit then it also can't use madVR renderer for 8-bit. Since madVR itself does the processing in 16-bit (IIRC), 10-bit and 8-bit will give roughly the same load to the GPU (I say roughly because there are some stuff that does slightly make the two differ, but not by much I believe). And really, an old nvidia 9400MG with a measly 256MB of onboard video memory can use madVR on 10-bit, why can't you?

madvr does use more cpu

MadVR simply uses a lot more CPU (even with all the 'fancy' settings turned off or to minimal) compared to EVR (Vista and up) and VMR (XP/2003).
10-bit is CPU only so CPU hogging renderer will not help 10-bit performance - using EVR/VMR CP is a much better choice.
Thats all - people should avoid MadVR if they have performance problems as it only makes performance WORSE.


IMO MadVR does ride the 'I-can-totally-see-it' quality difference train.
Might as well start comparing EVR:CP vs. EVR:CP HalfFP vs. EVR:CP FullFP.

[straypup]

IMO, compare them as equals for now, but in the future look into it again. I am running an old PCI GeForce FX5500 video card and I can play 10-bit on my system that is running: Win. 7 Pro, 1.5GB ram, and a 2.0GHZ AMD 64x2 3000+. It's an older computer, but don't let people say that older systems can not play them.

[slimcliffy]

I have not taken to time to read each and every post, so my bad if it has already been said. I was under the impression the point and reason why BakaBt was made was to keep it as original as possible. This falls under the line of image being sharpen, blurred, upscale, and yes changing the original bit depth of the image.

[bobthedog]

As you said, you should've been adult enough to accept the differences in people's opinion and not demand others to do as you want.

Nahhh.  That's not what I said...

Are you, perchance, seeking the American Republican Presidential Nomination?

You are certainly well qualified...

 

(And afterwards, you would make a perfect Fox News commentator.)

[Aadieu]

Also, madVR is the only one that DOESN'T dither to 8bit for me.

They do, otherwise you won't be able to watch anything without a video card that supports 10-bit output and a 10-bit display. madVR dithers the video to the display's bit-depth after alll of it's processing is done. Unless, of course, you're talking about madVR being capable of accepting 10-bit input without having to be dithered by the video decoder, in which case though, madVR will still dither at the end.

10-bit vidcard and a 10-bit display? This switch in terminology recently is hella confusing: does a Geforce 330M outputting 1080p @ 32-bit colour via HDMI to a Samsung LCD FullHD TV meet these criteria?