BakaBT > Announcements
Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
Aadieu:
--- Quote from: RedSuisei on December 29, 2011, 03:00:38 PM ---
--- Quote from: Aadieu on December 29, 2011, 02:45:38 PM ---
In the end though, 10-bit itself doesn't remove banding, it prevents more banding to be introduced during the encoding process. If the source already had banding, then the encoder would need to deband the video first before encoding.
Next time, please ask in a more polite manner. I'm pretty sure many people here would be inclined to answer if you do.
--- End quote ---
Ben-To [EveTaku][Hi10P][720P] takes the crown for banding. Very visible in many different ways immediately in the first few seconds. It's not a bad release or anything, other than the banding everywhere part, but the banding is extra-obvious, and just surprising considering 10-bits one and only tangible benefit (cause c'mon, dithering???)...
--- End quote ---
OnDeed:
--- Quote from: Aadieu on December 29, 2011, 09:19:55 PM ---
--- Quote from: RedSuisei on December 29, 2011, 03:00:38 PM ---
--- Quote from: Aadieu on December 29, 2011, 02:45:38 PM ---
In the end though, 10-bit itself doesn't remove banding, it prevents more banding to be introduced during the encoding process. If the source already had banding, then the encoder would need to deband the video first before encoding.
Next time, please ask in a more polite manner. I'm pretty sure many people here would be inclined to answer if you do.
--- End quote ---
Ben-To [EveTaku][Hi10P][720P] takes the crown for banding. Very visible in many different ways immediately in the first few seconds. It's not a bad release or anything, other than the banding everywhere part, but the banding is extra-obvious, and just surprising considering 10-bits one and only tangible benefit (cause c'mon, dithering???)...
--- End quote ---
--- End quote ---
Well 10-bit encoding is only the last part of the key combination here.
The factors at work:
1) your source is banded OR it gets easily banded once compressed (because the dither covering the gradients is faint and easily destroyed)
2) your filtering: using smoothers (especially the likes of dfttest and fft3dfilter) will create banding for you with pleasure. Likewise, you can do various antibanding filtering.
(The popular stupid way: create your own banding with the smoothers and then run gradfun to get rid of it, which usually takes away the compression benefits of the denoiser. Bonus points for sharpening afterwards because your source got smoothed...)
3) encoding. In this step, you finally try to achieve the banding-less result, but your success naturally depends on steps 1 and 2. If source had banding but you didn't do anything about it in step 2, you can't save it in step 3.
In this step, you can however screw up a good result from step 2 by using wrong options. Using good options here won't save you if you are inputting garbage, they will merely help you to not get garbage from your good input. Those good options are various: higher bitrate, higher aq and psyrdo, and encoding in 10-bit is another of them. Best is probably to combine all you got, because in 8-bit, it was often an uphill battle to get successful in this last step, x264 would often negate your efforts from step2... It's precisely this difficulty of getting a good result in this step in the past that encoders are so enthusiastic about 10-bit. Torturing yourself with gradfun only to find the banding back after encoding was a major pita.
TL;DR
10bit is a tool, it's not a silver bullet.
datora:
.
I've plowed through this thread a few times now, and there doesn't appear much more to be said.
What I would suggest at this point is that bakaBT staff make a decision on when they want the changeover to occur, something convenient for your schedule and other duties, then announce it.
My input on that is to nominate 01 July 2012 as the changeover date for policies on torrent evaluation. It's semi-arbitrary, but six months seems a fairly reasonable timeframe, and it's not like all 8-bit will get deleted at midnight 30 June.
The idea here is that members have this time to download the hell out of the 8-bit torrents that are in danger of being deleted in favor of superior 10-bit encodes. This same time frame allows many comparison threads to hash out which candidates get the axe first.
Possibly do it in stages: every Monday post a list of (10? or 15?) torrents that will get axed at midnight the following Sunday so that folks have a last opportunity to get a copy if they want it.
All new offers have to stand on their own merits for quality, with the 'normal' tradeoffs on video/audio/translations/ & filesizes & etc., and 8-bit or 10-bit is not a factor ... only superior quality and any archival value for rarities.
I made a few other suggestions in an earlier post and stand by them as possibilities. In particular, the guidelines and requirements for making new offers and maintaining old ones might very well benefit from a bit of an overhaul to improve quality of offers and reduce the workload on staff for the approval/rejection process.
This is a proposed framework, all factors within it can be adjusted to fit other considerations (01 July sucks? Fine, maybe 01 September etc.).
For me, the big thing is just knowing when the effective date is, and having a substantial lead time to plan for it. In my world, six months is exceptionally generous.
speedfreek20:
Been browsing a few pages and a lot of the same arguments over and over but i'm not really going to go into much of them (aside from the technical ones which I have no clue about)
As far as those saying to upgrade to those that have insufficient hardware, it's not always within ones budget to do so, be it have a job or not, because really computers/laptops are generally a luxury item, or at least as far as watching anime and such.
I'm just lucky I got a quad core laptop earlier this year, though I have a WD Live Hub hooked up to my TV as a means to serve my media easier, as my laptop doesn't really have a proper spot to sit, plus just the general hassle of having it hooked up and running, if it was a desktop then that would be something else, as I would more than likely have it permanently on the TV.
I'm not even sure where i'm going with this train of thought, anyway moving on.
As far as 8bit vs 10bit goes, I say have a slot for both, or at the very least a slot for 720p 8bit. I have friends that have a range of hardware, one doesn't watch HD because of the hardware he has but I doubt many, if any, SD releases would be in 10bit but i wonder how that would run on less powerful hardware.
Seeing as I tend to share my anime out (well fansubs anyway), I like to be able to cover most bases, so more often than not i'll get the one I want and if I know someone that wants to watch it, i'll get a lower quality version if they dont have the hardware.
I don't think there should be a time limit either on existing torrents but more of a general phase out, give it a couple years. Cull off the older ones first that have very little activity, especially if there are a few HQ releases of it but keep at least one of each as there's always going to be someone that may not be able to use 10bit properly.
Though if my WD Live Hub was compatible with 10bit or I had some kind of other compatible, convenient solution then I would worry about it even less personally but regardless keep 8bit and 10bit in tandem.
As far as HD releases go, even if 1080p is reserved for 10bit and 720p is for 8bit, I wouldn't really see an issue with that. Though honestly there isn't that great of a difference, sure I can tell at times whats 1080 and whats 720 but it depends on the source but in the end, as long as its a clean, crisp HD image then it's all good as far as i'm concerned.
0squid0:
"My two cents"
I realize everyone is looking at what makes the best video output as far as codec + resolution, but are we talking about bumping off the old grading system we have now?
If so, I'm not at all okay with that! I almost exclusively download from the C group, yeah my PC is "ancient," but we're also talking about compatibility right? I mean, shouldn't we be just as concerned with using formats that have potential AND current usefulness?
Like, avi is a somewhat hated format because of its limitations, but it's soo freakin' compatible! Very few devices now (I can't think of any actually) can't play avi, and MP4 has some of the best compression (I realize I'm talking about the smallest scales here while everybody else talks about the high end) while maintaining excellent quality. Seriously. MP4. Not on here mind you, but I've DLed several series in that format with phenomenal compression and way better quality than the often bloated mkv.
But then again, it's just another torrent file, why not keep the groups as is, and add the high-end as an option 0, or something like that... A lot of anime on BakaBT don't even have more than one option, which can really suck if you have to choose your torrent based on whatever device you have to play it on... lets face it... money, and the technology you have available is a motivator here too.
(Please don't flame me if I said anything stupid, I'm tired, and I don't even use 720 and up slots. I wouldn't DL them even if I did have some high end device. Too much memory!)
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