Hi10P and 8-bit encodes

[Puiu]

So who wins the poll? The one with the most votes or only the one with >50% of the total votes?

Can't we just make a compromise? Some want 6 months and some want them now. How about we treat 10bit equally with 8bit releases starting this spring? Until then upload the FullHD 8bit ones too along side 10bit (that's if the 10bit ones are better of course).
The codecs and players are already good enough to play the files, but we can let them work a whole winter to sort out the remaining bugs, performance issues and also the fansubbing groups to become more proficient at using 10bit.

In my opinion, by then all new HD (720/1080p) releases will be in 10bit.

[from]

Is Hi10P a better method of video encoding than "regular" 8-bit H.264? Yes.

What does it mean that a method of video encoding is "better" than another? It simply means that it can produce smaller files with the same quality.

In audio, there is the difference between lossy and lossless encodings, where MP3 is a popular lossy format and FLAC a popular lossless one. This is a common misconception. Both are lossy in compared to the ACTUAL source, the highly analogue audio produced by the artist(s), the lossy/lossless differentiation is only in regards to the (already lossily encoded) CD audio.

FLAC is, however, inarguably BETTER than MP3, since MP3 cannot produce the same quality, seeing as how it drops parts of the signal it encodes. Most of us can't hear which is better of a good quality rip of either, even if we CAN spot that there is a difference.

In video, on the other hand, there is no such thing as lossless encodings. Even the common sources (DVDs and Blu-ray discs) are encoded, the former in MPEG-2 and the latter in, generally, "mainstream" 8-bit H.264.

Wait, say what? The SOURCE is ALREADY encoded in 8-bit H.264? Yes, it is, even though there are of course exceptions. Blu-ray supports a variety of encodings, of which 8-bit H.264 is the most common. Hi10P is not one of them.

So, for the BEST quality, the pure disc rips should be used, which is generally 8-bit H.264. However, most people with higher IQ than they've got terabytes of storage prefer something...smaller . Hence, the re-encodes generally referred to by filesharers as "encodings" or "releases".

Back to Hi10P vs. 8-bit H.264. But I've already said Hi10P is better, why do I need to return to this? Simply to return to my main point - it is better because it can produce the SAME quality with SMALLER filesizes. As the source is (quite often) 8-bit H.264, a Hi10P encode can NOT magically make the video itself better.

TL; DR.

So the real question is, does the decrease in file sizes (25%, I believe I've read here?) warrant the decrease in portability of said files - which will not function in, for instance, common Blu-ray players, many of which CAN handle most 8-bit H.264 releases?

For the small percentage of us with SSDs (small but quick storage) and high-performance computers, I believe the answer is yes. For the rest of us, I'm not so sure. I, personally, would appreciate a (1080p OR 720p) 8-bit H.264 slot, at least for now.

[Baby Naruto]

I voted for "No, I believe hardware support is not sufficient, please retain all releases for now", since my computer from 2002/2003 can not play 10-bit video, even with codec packs and/or media players that support 10-bit.

[AceD]

Your hardware been almost a decade out of date isn't a valid argument for this...Group C is for people like you.

[Baby Naruto]

Your hardware been almost a decade out of date isn't a valid argument for this...Group C is for people like you.

Oh, I see...not my fault I can't upgrade my computer or buy a new one though.

[DmonHiro]

Back to Hi10P vs. 8-bit H.264. But I've already said Hi10P is better, why do I need to return to this? Simply to return to my main point - it is better because it can produce the SAME quality with SMALLER filesizes. As the source is (quite often) 8-bit H.264, a Hi10P encode can NOT magically make the video itself better.

I have lost track of how many times I've said this, but what the hell, one more for the road.

The real benefit from 10bit is NOT smaller file size. It's reducing banding. I don't get it, why is this such a hard concept to understand. It's fairly simple. When you encode something from a source (BD, DVD, whatever), there is a very high chance that banding may appear in the encode. 10bit reduces said amount of banding. 8bit: more banding. 10bit: less banding. How is that hard?

[RedSuisei]

I have lost track of how many times I've said this, but what the hell, one more for the road.

The real benefit from 10bit is NOT smaller file size. It's reducing banding. I don't get it, why is this such a hard concept to understand. It's fairly simple. When you encode something from a source (BD, DVD, whatever), there is a very high chance that banding may appear in the encode. 10bit reduces said amount of banding. 8bit: more banding. 10bit: less banding. How is that hard?

The way you said isn't exactly correct though, what you said makes it sound as if 10-bit itself will reduce banding, while in fact, it doesn't. All it does is to help prevent more banding to appear because of the loss of dithering in the encoding process.

To people who still despise 10-bit (not that anything I say to you guys will ever change your mind anyway, but what the heck), while this may not seem much, it actually helps a lot. Example, you have a source with banding, and you used a debanding filter on it, load it up on AvsP/VDub/whatever and see that the banding's gone/reduced. When you pass it on to x264-8bit, the final video may have the banding appear again (sometimes maybe even worse). With 10-bit, you can keep the smooth gradients from the already filtered video much more easily and at a much lower bitrate. That's the actual benefit of 10-bit encoding in regards to banding prevention. Note that I said "prevention," not elimination.

[Aerah]

If you must, 480p should go 10-bit first. Last should be 1080p. Not the other way around.

Lets put a 2004 desktop, slow CPU and not much RAM, but a PCIe slot with a DXVA2 GPU.
This computer can play higher bitrate 1080p 8-bit h264 than I have ever seen in an anime rip/sub...

Assuming that the user is not a total idiot and did not install MadVR (which kills performance),
No doubt that such a CPU can play 480p 10-bit video without any need to turn off deblocking.
But 720p 10-bit? Such a user may need to turn off deblocking and use Haali Renderer instead of EVR.
So for such a user it may be an advantage to download 10-bit 480p DVD-only shows and 8-bit 1080p BD shows.

If there is no 8-bit 1080p release, then the user will either have to watch 480p 10-bit or 720p 10-bit (without deblocking).
1080p 8-bit >>>> 720p 10-bit w/o deblocking >>> 480p 10-bit

[DmonHiro]

The way you said isn't exactly correct though, what you said makes it sound as if 10-bit itself will reduce banding, while in fact, it doesn't. All it does is to help prevent more banding to appear because of the loss of dithering in the encoding process.

What I meant to say is that by encoding something from a source, you will probably create more banding, and that 10bit will help reduce how much banding is created. It cannot remove banding from the source. Only debanding filters can do that, and those have undesired side-effects.

Lets put a 2004 desktop

And that's where I stopped reading (not really, I read the whole thing). So you're saying that people should hold back because some people still use 8 year old PCs? Fair enough... exactly how long should we wait? Until they upgrade? But why would they upgrade if they can play the files? Why would anyone upgrade if they can play the files.

This debate is pretty much a dead end. People who hate 10bit will hate it regardless of how illogical that is. They will claim that it has nothing over 8bit, ignoring the blatantly obvious screenshots provided. As someone who has been on BakaBT for a long time, here is what I've learned:
1. BakaBT does NOT care about hardware support. Never has, never will. You not being able to play 10bit on WDLive or some other machine is not an argument that will be accepted.
2. BakaBT wants the best quality. If 10bit is the best quality (and it usually is), BakaBT will take it.
3. For people with slow PCs, the 480p slot will ALWAYS be provided. It may be 10bit as well, but even that 8 year old pc will be able to play it back.

Also, understand this: 10bit is coming. It's pretty much already here, and sooner or later, all official releases will be 10bit. At that point, what will the 10bit-haters do? Either accepts 10bit, reencode it themselves, or wait for random guy 7628 to reencode it for them and post in on the internet.

[kajunbowser]

I did have problems playing Hi10P releases on my laptop circa mid-2006 w/ CCCP. There was some discoloration of pixels while playing, but it was "watchable." With my new laptop, over the past few months, there have been no problems. The problem for some people might occur with machines made in 2006 with weak sauce CPUs and/or video cards with less than 512MB on-board RAM.

[bobthedog]

Group C is for people like you.

Now, where have I heard this sort of thing before?

Oh yeah...

"Links...  Recht...  Links...  Links...  Recht...  Gruppe 'C'..."

Nice.     

[doll_licca]

What I meant to say is that by encoding something from a source, you will probably create more banding, and that 10bit will help reduce how much banding is created. It cannot remove banding from the source. Only debanding filters can do that, and those have undesired side-effects.

That is correct.  I agree with that.

And that's where I stopped reading (not really, I read the whole thing). So you're saying that people should hold back because some people still use 8 year old PCs? Fair enough... exactly how long should we wait? Until they upgrade? But why would they upgrade if they can play the files? Why would anyone upgrade if they can play the files.

(snip part not relevant to response)

3. For people with slow PCs, the 480p slot will ALWAYS be provided. It may be 10bit as well, but even that 8 year old pc will be able to play it back.

There are platforms that will not properly play 480p Hi10P encodes correctly (insufficient software support).  I would not cut them off and tell them to get a new computer.

Also, understand this: 10bit is coming. It's pretty much already here, and sooner or later, all official releases will be 10bit. At that point, what will the 10bit-haters do? Either accepts 10bit, reencode it themselves, or wait for random guy 7628 to reencode it for them and post in on the internet.

If it were me (note that I'm not a 10-bit hater myself), I would have just not downloaded the anime and wait for BDs or DVDs to come out, and import them.

[Aerah]

^ CoreAVC 2.5 and up dropped support for low-end CPUs AFAIK.

Lets put a 2004 desktop

And that's where I stopped reading (not really, I read the whole thing). So you're saying that people should hold back because some people still use 8 year old PCs? Fair enough... exactly how long should we wait? Until they upgrade? But why would they upgrade if they can play the files? Why would anyone upgrade if they can play the files.

This debate is pretty much a dead end. People who hate 10bit will hate it regardless of how illogical that is. They will claim that it has nothing over 8bit, ignoring the blatantly obvious screenshots provided. As someone who has been on BakaBT for a long time, here is what I've learned:
1. BakaBT does NOT care about hardware support. Never has, never will. You not being able to play 10bit on WDLive or some other machine is not an argument that will be accepted.
2. BakaBT wants the best quality. If 10bit is the best quality (and it usually is), BakaBT will take it.
3. For people with slow PCs, the 480p slot will ALWAYS be provided. It may be 10bit as well, but even that 8 year old pc will be able to play it back.

Also, understand this: 10bit is coming. It's pretty much already here, and sooner or later, all official releases will be 10bit. At that point, what will the 10bit-haters do? Either accepts 10bit, reencode it themselves, or wait for random guy 7628 to reencode it for them and post in on the internet.

You missed the point. First to go 10-bit should be SD THEN HD. SD 10-bit is accessible to a much broader range of hardware than HD 10-bit. SD 10-bit has less of a negative impact on the fan base. 1080p 10bit alienates a much broader range of hardware. Besides 10-bit SD need to prove itself - I just downloaded 480 10bit and each episode was NOT impressive size-wise - quite on the contrary.

The PC is dead. The popularity of netbooks (ehem, equivalent of 2004 PC) proven that a conventional PC is not needed anymore. Same goes for the popularity of the iPad, and for Windows users Windows 8 is designed to run on touchpad hardware (probably will also be equivalent of 2004/5 PC with DXVA2 GPU).
It is very anti-innovative to push bulky high performing heat-makers these days. There is no point - most users need a piss-poor CPU and a good GPU, a browser, and a media player. Hell my next 'upgrade' might as well be a W8 touchpad - way more convenient never technology.

BTW, I my example - the users ALREADY upgraded their GPU to play 1080p video.

I already commented on the screenshots.

I don't think BakaBT has a blacklist (*booru style)... does it? It would solve problems - just not showing the "hi10p" troll codes.

[godcheese]

I am un-phased by the switch so I say go ahead and start doing it now... I'd still say keep 8bit there is no 10bit for, I doubt groups want to re-encode thousands of shows and movies just as they come along, replace them if they are better. So I guess I am voting for option 1? If the 10bit is a higher quality, nix the 8bit from the tracker, no need for it. I figured out how to watch 1080p 10bit. Most off the shelf computers are capable out of the box playing anything 10bit, even in 1080p.

I agree with one of the first few posts though, I think IX posted it, choose which tag you're going to call it hi10p, 10-bit, hi10 ect.

[DmonHiro]

The PC is dead. The popularity of netbooks (ehem, equivalent of 2004 PC) proven that a conventional PC is not needed anymore.

Lol, seriously? If you truly think that, there's no point in talking. Anime fansubers will ALWAYS work on the PC for the PC. If users don't want to use the PC anymore, that's their problem.

[Aadieu]

The PC is dead. The popularity of netbooks (ehem, equivalent of 2004 PC) proven that a conventional PC is not needed anymore.

Lol, seriously? If you truly think that, there's no point in talking. Anime fansubers will ALWAYS work on the PC for the PC. If users don't want to use the PC anymore, that's their problem.

Lol, seriously?!
1080p rips, whatever colour bitrate, whatever overall bitrate, would never even exist if the fansubbed audience wasn't using HDTVs and projectors and whatnot hooked up via vga/hdmi/dvi to their pcs/notebooks/netbooks/tablets (yeah, even those have tvouts nowadays). Can't see the diff between 720p and fullHD on those 20" screens desktoppers use, much less on on 13-17" laptop screens that can't even display all them pixels.

Check out tvrips of US dramas. Good luck finding even 480p widescreen rips with more than a handful of seeds there. Why? Cause THOSE people DO watch on their PCs and their hardware players.

Btw, the real reason we have such support for the C slot isn't old PC hardware, as the 1080p Hi10p crowd is saying - it's slow-to-catchup hardware players, tablets, pocket media players, upscale cellphones, etc.

[AceD]

Group C is for people like you.

Now, where have I heard this sort of thing before?

Oh yeah...

"Links...  Recht...  Links...  Links...  Recht...  Gruppe 'C'..."

Nice.     

lol, it's the truth though.

[tyrionlannister]

The PC is dead. The popularity of netbooks (ehem, equivalent of 2004 PC) proven that a conventional PC is not needed anymore.

Lol, seriously? If you truly think that, there's no point in talking. Anime fansubers will ALWAYS work on the PC for the PC. If users don't want to use the PC anymore, that's their problem.

Lol, seriously?!
1080p rips, whatever colour bitrate, whatever overall bitrate, would never even exist if the fansubbed audience wasn't using HDTVs and projectors and whatnot hooked up via vga/hdmi/dvi to their pcs/notebooks/netbooks/tablets (yeah, even those have tvouts nowadays). Can't see the diff between 720p and fullHD on those 20" screens desktoppers use, much less on on 13-17" laptop screens that can't even display all them pixels.

Check out tvrips of US dramas. Good luck finding even 480p widescreen rips with more than a handful of seeds there. Why? Cause THOSE people DO watch on their PCs and their hardware players.

Btw, the real reason we have such support for the C slot isn't old PC hardware, as the 1080p Hi10p crowd is saying - it's slow-to-catchup hardware players, tablets, pocket media players, upscale cellphones, etc.

So, we owe 1080p rips to PCs which in your opinion are dead? I guess most of us are necromancers then, bringing our PCs back from the grave in order to write posts and watch anime.

Unless you claim to be psychic and know the mods thoughts, what do you  base your claim for reason of the support for the C slot, considering the fact that you weren't even registered at the time when the slots appeared(unless your account was pruned)? Find me one post from a mod where they say that C slot is for little plastic toys, if you can.

[Aadieu]

The PC is dead. The popularity of netbooks (ehem, equivalent of 2004 PC) proven that a conventional PC is not needed anymore.

Lol, seriously? If you truly think that, there's no point in talking. Anime fansubers will ALWAYS work on the PC for the PC. If users don't want to use the PC anymore, that's their problem.

Lol, seriously?!
1080p rips, whatever colour bitrate, whatever overall bitrate, would never even exist if the fansubbed audience wasn't using HDTVs and projectors and whatnot hooked up via vga/hdmi/dvi to their pcs/notebooks/netbooks/tablets (yeah, even those have tvouts nowadays). Can't see the diff between 720p and fullHD on those 20" screens desktoppers use, much less on on 13-17" laptop screens that can't even display all them pixels.

Check out tvrips of US dramas. Good luck finding even 480p widescreen rips with more than a handful of seeds there. Why? Cause THOSE people DO watch on their PCs and their hardware players.

Btw, the real reason we have such support for the C slot isn't old PC hardware, as the 1080p Hi10p crowd is saying - it's slow-to-catchup hardware players, tablets, pocket media players, upscale cellphones, etc.

So, we owe 1080p rips to PCs which in your opinion are dead? I guess most of us are necromancers then, bringing our PCs back from the grave in order to write posts and watch anime.

Unless you claim to be psychic and know the mods thoughts, what do you  base your claim for reason of the support for the C slot, considering the fact that you weren't even registered at the time when the slots appeared(unless your account was pruned)? Find me one post from a mod where they say that C slot is for little plastic toys, if you can.

I'm saying 1080p is popular because people hook up their devices to big screens, not monitors. The monitor crowd likes 720p.

I never said anything about what mods think. I don't even see how that's relevant. Threads like this one seem to show that administrative decisions are made taking what the public wants into account.

I was talking about POPULAR support for Slot C. It's there because people want it to be there. And people want it to be there for compatibility reasons.

[tyrionlannister]

Do you have any basis for your first claim regarding TVs/monitors or are you just projecting your personal situation?
 
In case you're not aware, this isn't a democracy, and the slots decision, as far as I remember wasn't taken after a public consultation. What the mods are doing now is just a favor to the community, and don't think that the poll results are going to compel them into doing something that they think is wrong. As the thread has shown, there are plenty of ignorant persons, and I don't mean that in a pejorative sense, that simply aren't up to date on the terminology and technical aspects of 10-bot/8-bit encoding, and so can't be relied upon to make an informed decision.

Again, unless you were present when the slots decision was made, you can assume all you want but you won't be right. "The people" that you refer to are the mods, so don't think that the popular decision will mean too much.

Edit: IMHO 1080p is popular because people have always had the irrational belief that the the bigger it is, the better it is. On BakaBT, an obvious additional reason for the popularity is the freeleech. Before freeleech for 1080p, there were relatively few people willing to sacrifice their ratio for it.