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Hi10P and 8-bit encodes

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DmonHiro:

--- Quote from: from on January 01, 2012, 07:55:19 PM ---Back to Hi10P vs. 8-bit H.264. But I've already said Hi10P is better, why do I need to return to this? Simply to return to my main point - it is better because it can produce the SAME quality with SMALLER filesizes. As the source is (quite often) 8-bit H.264, a Hi10P encode can NOT magically make the video itself better.


--- End quote ---
I have lost track of how many times I've said this, but what the hell, one more for the road.

The real benefit from 10bit is NOT smaller file size. It's reducing banding. I don't get it, why is this such a hard concept to understand. It's fairly simple. When you encode something from a source (BD, DVD, whatever), there is a very high chance that banding may appear in the encode. 10bit reduces said amount of banding. 8bit: more banding. 10bit: less banding. How is that hard?

RedSuisei:

--- Quote from: DmonHiro on January 01, 2012, 10:33:02 PM ---I have lost track of how many times I've said this, but what the hell, one more for the road.

The real benefit from 10bit is NOT smaller file size. It's reducing banding. I don't get it, why is this such a hard concept to understand. It's fairly simple. When you encode something from a source (BD, DVD, whatever), there is a very high chance that banding may appear in the encode. 10bit reduces said amount of banding. 8bit: more banding. 10bit: less banding. How is that hard?

--- End quote ---
The way you said isn't exactly correct though, what you said makes it sound as if 10-bit itself will reduce banding, while in fact, it doesn't. All it does is to help prevent more banding to appear because of the loss of dithering in the encoding process.

To people who still despise 10-bit (not that anything I say to you guys will ever change your mind anyway, but what the heck), while this may not seem much, it actually helps a lot. Example, you have a source with banding, and you used a debanding filter on it, load it up on AvsP/VDub/whatever and see that the banding's gone/reduced. When you pass it on to x264-8bit, the final video may have the banding appear again (sometimes maybe even worse). With 10-bit, you can keep the smooth gradients from the already filtered video much more easily and at a much lower bitrate. That's the actual benefit of 10-bit encoding in regards to banding prevention. Note that I said "prevention," not elimination.

Aerah:
If you must, 480p should go 10-bit first. Last should be 1080p. Not the other way around.

Lets put a 2004 desktop, slow CPU and not much RAM, but a PCIe slot with a DXVA2 GPU.
This computer can play higher bitrate 1080p 8-bit h264 than I have ever seen in an anime rip/sub...

Assuming that the user is not a total idiot and did not install MadVR (which kills performance),
No doubt that such a CPU can play 480p 10-bit video without any need to turn off deblocking.
But 720p 10-bit? Such a user may need to turn off deblocking and use Haali Renderer instead of EVR.
So for such a user it may be an advantage to download 10-bit 480p DVD-only shows and 8-bit 1080p BD shows.

If there is no 8-bit 1080p release, then the user will either have to watch 480p 10-bit or 720p 10-bit (without deblocking).
1080p 8-bit >>>> 720p 10-bit w/o deblocking >>> 480p 10-bit

DmonHiro:

--- Quote from: RedSuisei on January 01, 2012, 10:58:21 PM ---The way you said isn't exactly correct though, what you said makes it sound as if 10-bit itself will reduce banding, while in fact, it doesn't. All it does is to help prevent more banding to appear because of the loss of dithering in the encoding process.

--- End quote ---
What I meant to say is that by encoding something from a source, you will probably create more banding, and that 10bit will help reduce how much banding is created. It cannot remove banding from the source. Only debanding filters can do that, and those have undesired side-effects.


--- Quote from: Aerah on January 01, 2012, 11:07:36 PM ---Lets put a 2004 desktop

--- End quote ---
And that's where I stopped reading (not really, I read the whole thing). So you're saying that people should hold back because some people still use 8 year old PCs? Fair enough... exactly how long should we wait? Until they upgrade? But why would they upgrade if they can play the files? Why would anyone upgrade if they can play the files.

This debate is pretty much a dead end. People who hate 10bit will hate it regardless of how illogical that is. They will claim that it has nothing over 8bit, ignoring the blatantly obvious screenshots provided. As someone who has been on BakaBT for a long time, here is what I've learned:
1. BakaBT does NOT care about hardware support. Never has, never will. You not being able to play 10bit on WDLive or some other machine is not an argument that will be accepted.
2. BakaBT wants the best quality. If 10bit is the best quality (and it usually is), BakaBT will take it.
3. For people with slow PCs, the 480p slot will ALWAYS be provided. It may be 10bit as well, but even that 8 year old pc will be able to play it back.

Also, understand this: 10bit is coming. It's pretty much already here, and sooner or later, all official releases will be 10bit. At that point, what will the 10bit-haters do? Either accepts 10bit, reencode it themselves, or wait for random guy 7628 to reencode it for them and post in on the internet.

kajunbowser:
I did have problems playing Hi10P releases on my laptop circa mid-2006 w/ CCCP. There was some discoloration of pixels while playing, but it was "watchable." With my new laptop, over the past few months, there have been no problems. The problem for some people might occur with machines made in 2006 with weak sauce CPUs and/or video cards with less than 512MB on-board RAM.

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