BakaBT > Announcements
Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
Bob2004:
--- Quote from: Aerah on January 03, 2012, 01:02:11 AM ---You said that or you worded your argument in such a convoluted manner that I thought you did.
You are seriously underestimating the power of modern GPUs - how old is the NV 9800 for example? - that is plenty of power for real time dithering (exactly like the cat picture on the wiki article). Again, video type does not effect the GPU's ability to apply shaders before output (even with DXVA as DXVA is just a chip on the GPU dedicated to h264).
Because that way - quality fetishists can use fancy filtering to achieve their boners and the rest can just watch movies in a standard video format?
Kinda contradicting though, you talking about the horrible performance of shaders on hardware while saying that you do not notice the massive performance differences between EVR|VMR and MadVR and Haali Renderer (Installed with Haali Splitter).
--- End quote ---
Aerah, you seem to be forgetting that 10-bit provides benefits that cannot be gained by using any amount of shaders, filters, or whatever, when playing the video. The main benefits of 10-bit are in a) preventing banding from being introduced during the reencoding process, and b) increasing precision, thus improving compression, and in turn leading to much more efficient use of bitrate - and thus higher quality, or lower filesizes.
Obviously neither of these things can be achieved by the video player (as you well know - it's been explained many times already in this thread), so I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here.
Also, the argument about whether MadVR uses more cpu or gpu seems completely irrelevant. It is a slightly higher-quality renderer that also uses more resources. EVR is perfectly good, so you don't really lose out on much by not using MadVR. It's just an option that is available if you have the resources available. Since it is completely unneccesary if you want to play 10-bit, and the quality improvement is so small as to be almost unnoticeable, it seems pretty irrelevant to this discussion.
RedSuisei:
--- Quote from: Aerah on January 03, 2012, 01:02:11 AM ---You said that or you worded your argument in such a convoluted manner that I thought you did.
--- End quote ---
So you seem to have a comprehension problem, I take it.
--- Quote from: Aerah on January 03, 2012, 01:02:11 AM ---You are seriously underestimating the power of modern GPUs - how old is the NV 9800 for example? - that is plenty of power for real time dithering (exactly like the cat picture on the wiki article). Again, video type does not effect the GPU's ability to apply shaders before output (even with DXVA as DXVA is just a chip on the GPU dedicated to h264).
--- End quote ---
If you have the cash to get a modern GPU, then you also have the cash to get a modern CPU capable of playing 10-bit in the first place.
--- Quote from: Aerah on January 03, 2012, 01:02:11 AM ---Because that way - quality fetishists can use fancy filtering to achieve their boners and the rest can just watch movies in a standard video format?
--- End quote ---
Are you saying that with this, the rest can just watch with lower quality? Because if you do, then the rest can also get a lower resolution 10-bit video to cope with their old hardware. Also, if you are an encoder, you'd know that any filter that actually gives good results are too heavy for real-time playback.
(Btw I don't know of any shaders that actually does deband; all I know to do real-time deband is via ffdshow. If you know of any of this debanding shaders for MPC-HC, please point a link to me as I would like to test it.)
--- Quote from: Aerah on January 03, 2012, 01:02:11 AM ---Kinda contradicting though, you talking about the horrible performance of shaders on hardware while saying that you do not notice the massive performance differences between EVR|VMR and MadVR and Haali Renderer (Installed with Haali Splitter).
--- End quote ---
Whoever said there aren't any performance difference? There is, but it is on the GPU performance. CPU load? Using EVR I get 15-19% CPU usage, using madVR I get 16-19% CPU usage. I certainly wouldn't call that 1% difference a "massive performance difference." Even madVR's thread on doom9 explicitly states that all work are done via GPU. Stop misleading people with your uninformed statements.
Aerah:
Dunno, about you but I never noticed gradient/banding problems with large quality 8-bit encodes. :/
On the positive side,
- CoreAVC 3.1 promises performance improvements for 9-bit and 10-bit media (sometime in early '12?)
- New MPC:HC builds promises better subtitle performance (sometimes in '12... they are slow)
I am currently trying to re-encode [jackoneill] The Third MKV with Handbrake.
First attempt gave out a 150MB file which turned out very very bad. (using VerySlow from http://bytebin.wordpress.com/2011/02/06/x264-presetstunes-and-handbrake/)
Now trying with Avg. Bitrate instead of constant quality.
@RedSuisei
"Are you saying that with this, the rest can just watch with lower quality?" also applies to the move to 10-bit. Before 1080p h264 FLAC fansubs - after 720p/480p 10-bit h264 fansubs - low-hardware crowd will have to watch in MUCH MUCH lower quality.
RedSuisei:
--- Quote from: Aerah on January 03, 2012, 01:50:50 AM ---@RedSuisei
"Are you saying that with this, the rest can just watch with lower quality?" also applies to the move to 10-bit. Before 1080p h264 FLAC fansubs - after 720p/480p 10-bit h264 fansubs - low-hardware crowd will have to watch in MUCH MUCH lower quality.
--- End quote ---
Much lower quality? Most of your "high quality" 1080p releases are from upscaled Blu-Rays anyway (and because of this not much new 1080p torrents are going to be accepted anyway except maybe in some special cases), so I don't think you'd lose that much. The only reason I brought this up is because your statements are hypocritical; from the beginning I don't care if people with lower-end hardwares will need to get lower-resolution releases (even if I myself were also in that crowd; I see the lack of hardware capability as my own shortcoming and not the releaser's responsibility to cater to that). However, you from beginning mentioned how 10-bit will force people to watch in lower quality, then you go ahead and said that the rest who lack the sufficient hardware to do real-time filtering can watch in lower quality. What a hypocrite.
Also, you don't notice banding on large quality 8-bit encodes, there are two possibilities: either your eyes aren't sharp enough to notice those (in which case, you shouldn't care about this "lower quality" you speak of), or the 8-bit had such a large bitrate to preserve the dither.
Aerah:
--- Quote from: RedSuisei on January 03, 2012, 01:59:58 AM ---
--- Quote from: Aerah on January 03, 2012, 01:50:50 AM ---@RedSuisei
"Are you saying that with this, the rest can just watch with lower quality?" also applies to the move to 10-bit. Before 1080p h264 FLAC fansubs - after 720p/480p 10-bit h264 fansubs - low-hardware crowd will have to watch in MUCH MUCH lower quality.
--- End quote ---
Much lower quality? Most of your "high quality" 1080p releases are from upscaled Blu-Rays anyway (and because of this not much new 1080p torrents are going to be accepted anyway except maybe in some special cases), so I don't think you'd lose that much. The only reason I brought this up is because your statements are hypocritical; from the beginning I don't care if people with lower-end hardwares will need to get lower-resolution releases (even if I myself were also in that crowd; I see the lack of hardware capability as my own shortcoming and not the releaser's responsibility to cater to that). However, you from beginning mentioned how 10-bit will force people to watch in lower quality, then you go ahead and said that the rest who lack the sufficient hardware to do real-time filtering can watch in lower quality. What a hypocrite.
Also, you don't notice banding on large quality 8-bit encodes, there are two possibilities: either your eyes aren't sharp enough to notice those (in which case, you shouldn't care about this "lower quality" you speak of), or the 8-bit had such a large bitrate to preserve the dither.
--- End quote ---
The "lower quality" for "the rest who lack the sufficient hardware" is the first-half of '11 8-bit releases by master-level fansub groups. The visual thing 10-bit crowd is complaining about is just un-smooth transitions - especially noticeable in gradients - I don't why this cannot be fixed by filtering.
There is no "lower quality" in this suggestion. There is only higher quality achieved without switching to a software decoding.
The hyporcrite is the one who promotes Hi10p which alienates low-end CPU power but cries foul when a suggestion is given which alienates low-end GPUs.
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