Author Topic: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes  (Read 64254 times)

Online mrdkreka

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Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #400 on: January 03, 2012, 02:19:27 PM »
Hey hey hey, you can't just let 8-bit encodes disappear! I watch anime on my tablet too you know! I don't feel like re-encoding every single show I want to watch on it.
I'm able to watch 10-bit on my smartphone with SW decoding, so why can't you watch 10-bit on your tablet?
BakaBT is a community website that also allows the less technology gifted people to watch things on their tablet or other machines.

They aren't focusing on it, so if you want something that can be played on a device which can't use sw decode, I would say sites like animebytes would be better for you.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 02:23:20 PM by mrdkreka »
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Offline Aerah

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Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #401 on: January 03, 2012, 02:27:28 PM »
Ok, seeing as how the rest of the world don't look banded and there ain't any such eyesight disorder anyway - what the hell is wrong with my TV??? And why does it only show some banding, but not across the board? And why almost none in madVR screencaps?!?!
Turns out, you cannot notice the difference on 16-235 screens (AKA, 99% of laptops).
Just opened the screenshots also notices zero difference.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 02:29:38 PM by Aerah »
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Offline Temuthril

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Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #402 on: January 03, 2012, 02:29:02 PM »
While OnDeed is correct, there is something he/she is forgetting. Almost every single xvid release is compatible with almost any player. It's actually quite hard to make an incompatible xvid .avi.
Most hardware ASP players don't do well with GMC or QPEL. I also have some files that refuse to play at all.

Offline AceD

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Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #403 on: January 03, 2012, 02:43:55 PM »
Seriously, there is no harm in just having an 8bit slot.

Spreads the seed pool out more than needed
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 02:45:33 PM by AceD »

Offline OnDeed

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Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #404 on: January 03, 2012, 04:05:29 PM »
It is clear that the vast majority want 10bit to be treated equally with 8bit.
Pardon?
42% of respondents feel the need to push 10-bit in this poll. 7% didn't vote and 51% want at least one 8bit slot. The poll options fragment those people but that doesn't change the fact that they are a majority.
And there is still the likelihood that active proponents are more likely to vote here, compared to casual watchers that can be expected to have higher interest in HW-compatible, conservative format.

Spreads the seed pool out more than needed

Irrelevant. People who would want an 8-bit encode won't seed a 10-bit one.

Almost every single xvid release is compatible with almost any player. It's actually quite hard to make an incompatible xvid .avi.

I don't think that's true. First, most older players refused your file if it actually didn't have a divx fourcc. Then as mentioned, there is the question of qpel and GMC (bonus: xvid's gmc can be incompatible with player that supports divx's gmc).

Xvid files are widely compatible only as long as you keep to the basic setup, and that's what many encodes use (no qpel, no gmc; note that a lot of encodes don't even use bframes).
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 04:08:50 PM by OnDeed »
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Offline AceD

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Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #405 on: January 03, 2012, 04:20:40 PM »
Irrelevant. People who would want an 8-bit encode won't seed a 10-bit one.
No, if there's no choice they will get the 10-bit and learn to adapt...it's quite obvious that less choices = more seeders on the choices available.

Offline dragon191

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Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #406 on: January 03, 2012, 04:22:54 PM »
Seriously, there is no harm in just having an 8bit slot.
Obviously there is, if the staff of BakaBT asked the question in the first place. If there was no harm, nobody would be asking the question.

Obviously not. If it would harm anyone, there would be no need to ask. Precisely because they aren't sure what is best to do, they are asking it. I believe there is no harm in keeping 8bit encodes.

And also, who exactly is harmed by having an 8bit encode?

I'm able to watch 10-bit on my smartphone with SW decoding, so why can't you watch 10-bit on your tablet?

Because I don't have a high-end tablet.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 04:26:31 PM by dragon191 »

Online mrdkreka

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Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #407 on: January 03, 2012, 04:29:19 PM »
It is clear that the vast majority want 10bit to be treated equally with 8bit.
Pardon?
42% of respondents feel the need to push 10-bit in this poll. 7% didn't vote and 51% want at least one 8bit slot. The poll options fragment those people but that doesn't change the fact that they are a majority.
And there is still the likelihood that active proponents are more likely to vote here, compared to casual watchers that can be expected to have higher interest in HW-compatible, conservative format.

Two thing.
1. I'm one of those 51%, and I voted that because it don't feel like readings comments like "why can't i play this file :(" or "what a crappy encode, I can't play it with WMP" and so on, and also because I think there is no point in 10 bit for slot C.

2. The casual watcher could also have no interest, which is as likely as they have interest.

I'm able to watch 10-bit on my smartphone with SW decoding, so why can't you watch 10-bit on your tablet?

Because I don't have a high-end tablet.
which tablet do you have, and which player are you using?
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Offline dragon191

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Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #408 on: January 03, 2012, 04:38:59 PM »
I'm able to watch 10-bit on my smartphone with SW decoding, so why can't you watch 10-bit on your tablet?

Because I don't have a high-end tablet.
which tablet do you have, and which player are you using?

I have a Tomtec 7 inch Tablet 4 GB with Android 2.3.
I didn't download another player yet, as I just got a new one from Tomtec after a month or so and I don't recall what player I used before. I could play 720p MKV, but without subtitles.
But yeah, it's a cheaper one.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 04:42:04 PM by dragon191 »

Offline Aerah

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Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #409 on: January 03, 2012, 05:00:25 PM »
Irrelevant. People who would want an 8-bit encode won't seed a 10-bit one.
No, if there's no choice they will get the 10-bit and learn to adapt...it's quite obvious that less choices = more seeders on the choices available.
I am not having any luck re-encoding :(
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Offline OnDeed

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Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #410 on: January 03, 2012, 05:03:07 PM »
Irrelevant. People who would want an 8-bit encode won't seed a 10-bit one.
No, if there's no choice they will get the 10-bit and learn to adapt...it's quite obvious that less choices = more seeders on the choices available.

Some might "learn". More might adapt by ignoring you and going elsewhere. That's like thinking that if you close down the hospital, people won't be ill.
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Offline AceD

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Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #411 on: January 03, 2012, 05:36:01 PM »
That's like thinking that if you close down the hospital, people won't be ill.
It really isn't....

Offline hanayome

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Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #412 on: January 03, 2012, 05:42:37 PM »
That's like thinking that if you close down the hospital, people won't be ill.
It really isn't....
+1. It's more like closing down cheap, third-class hospitals will cause people to work harder and get better treatment at the better, more expensive hospitals...?
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Offline DmonHiro

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Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #413 on: January 03, 2012, 05:44:05 PM »
That's like thinking that if you close down the hospital, people won't be ill.
It really isn't....
+1. It's more like closing down cheap, third-class hospitals will cause people to work harder and get better treatment at the better, more expensive hospitals...?
It's actually more like the hospital is closing down it's discount wards, so everyone who wants treatment will have to pay full price. I was gonna say free clinic, but that's incorrect.
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Offline parusit

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Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #414 on: January 03, 2012, 05:55:59 PM »
Seriously, there is no harm in just having an 8bit slot.

Spreads the seed pool out more than needed

I don't think this would be much of a problem.

8-bit versions are still popular. It's not like the arrival of 10-bit is such a huge magic that makes everyone considered 8-bit obsolete.
And there are people who craving for good ratio here. So don't worry about the seeders.



Since when 8-bit h.264 has suddenly sunk so low as to become  "cheap, third-class hospitals" or "discount wards" ?  ???

If you exaggerating thing that way, how about the good old case between Xvid and h264 ?
Wouldn't h264 be the Heaven canceller Godlike hospital or something, and Xvid would be some credulous remotely island clinic then?

So for Xvid, just hunt & burn 'em down  like witch hunting?
No, it wasn't like that, at least on community scale.



I love 10-bit. But isn't it too much...

Now some talks like 8-bit is immorral toxic thing that should be get rid ASAP.
And people who still watching 8-bits is such a brainless sinner, cheap third-class people?


Don't over worry that the people would not learn the holy 10-bit path. Most of them have brains too (not the anti ones).

With elitist encoders all around now releasing and people keep offering 10-bit already, they would adapt for sure.
(just maybe not fast enough to satisfy some sights, that's all.)

Duki3003 edit: Don't double post.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 12:36:19 PM by Duki3003 »

Offline garretn

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Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #415 on: January 03, 2012, 06:53:44 PM »
That's like thinking that if you close down the hospital, people won't be ill.
It really isn't....
+1. It's more like closing down cheap, third-class hospitals will cause people to work harder and get better treatment at the better, more expensive hospitals...?
It's actually more like the hospital is closing down it's discount wards, so everyone who wants treatment will have to pay full price. I was gonna say free clinic, but that's incorrect.

I have to agree with this one. I've pointed out earlier that that's what I'd do, and I think I've proven my point that those of us exist with very nice hardware that can and will have problems with 10-bit in it's current state. However, it seems to me, and obviously this is based on my opinion, that the more reasonable posts from me and others are entirely overlooked in favor of the screaming idiots.

10-bit is better for anime more then any other source type for the very simple reason that gradients won't be dithered (much, if at all) until the end of the line, which is hard to argue. If you combine that with an undithered source medium (doctored or no), a player that can deal with it properly, a group that encoded it properly, hardware (I hate to break it to you guys, but computers are made up of hardware as well -- using the term hardware for both old computers and set-top boxes probably isn't the best idea in terms of discussion) that can deal with it without needing any hardware based acceleration, and a properly configured monitor or TV (most of them are, in fact, NOT, configured properly and can and will introduce banding without tweaking, if the screen is capable). There is no arguing any of that, it's all true, and will be of better quality when the right conditions are met.

I meet most of those conditions, except that since I choose to not sit in front on a monitor, and use software meant for media-center-style viewing (XBMC), it'll be a bit of time yet before 10-bit is a good choice.

Personally I would have a hard time justifying the use of 10-bit even for the sake of quality, since there are inarguably a lot of reasons not to use it. At the same time, I don't manage this site at all, and I imagine most of the people in the thread don't either, don't take their efforts for granted! They asked, the least we can do is keep it civil.

Oh, to the guy that recently brought up bigger seeding pools by forcing people to adapt. Wow.

My vote is still for the pretend poll option - 10-bit is probably the future, but it's still premature. Re-evaluate in 6 months.

Offline DmonHiro

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Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #416 on: January 03, 2012, 06:58:20 PM »
Funny thing, I was actually thinking about a completely different topic (Bandai closing in the US) when I made that hospital reference. It's just a coincidence that it fits here too.
Demons run when a good man goes to war. Night will fall and drown the sun, when a good man goes to war. Friendship dies and true love lies, night will fall and the dark will rise, when a good man goes to war. Demons run but count the cost, the battle's won, but the child is lost.

Offline garretn

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Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #417 on: January 03, 2012, 07:46:50 PM »
Funny thing, I was actually thinking about a completely different topic (Bandai closing in the US) when I made that hospital reference. It's just a coincidence that it fits here too.

Hah! True that.

Offline doll_licca

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Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #418 on: January 04, 2012, 05:03:23 AM »
Download ep1 of EveTaku's Bento 720p Hi10p and find out.

Downloaded EveTaku's Ben-to 01 Hi10p, took a screenshot of frame 727...what banding?
(removal of big screenshot)

No clue what your screenshot is from, but it certainly doesn't seem to be EveTaku's Hi10p release.
Well, ScreenshotCompariso n is kind of up, and I know that folks wanted a comparison between 8-bit and 10-bit encoded to the same settings, and I happen to have a few from some of the series I worked on.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/90858 <--- Happy Kappi Episode 9, 720p

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/90855 <--- Happy Kappi Episode 17, 480p

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/89533 <--- Pollyanna Episode 11, 480p

These were taken using MPC-HC with CCCP installed to their default settings.  The way I encode is that I encode 8-bit and 10-bit using the exact same settings for each of them.  The one caveat is that these screenshots are with the first version of CCCP that supported Hi10P, so there may be some residual tinting issues as it was trying to compensate for it.

I'll let everyone interpret them, as my eyes are not exactly the sharpest things around and I tend to miss issues that other people would catch.

Edit: http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=322467 <--- This was a thread I started on MAL about Hi10P and its use in older series.  It has a few comparison screenshots as well, although it also includes XviD and VP8, which is not relevant to this discussion.

I'm going to get some rest, so feel free to leave me any questions that I'll try to answer tomorrow morning.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 05:15:59 AM by doll_licca »

Offline jackoneill

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Re: Hi10P and 8-bit encodes
« Reply #419 on: January 04, 2012, 06:22:18 AM »