Author Topic: Linux  (Read 3577 times)

Offline metro.

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Linux
« on: January 23, 2012, 09:24:52 AM »
So I'm debating running a Linux Kernel on my laptop because it seems like it's something I should learn.

Any suggestions? I've heard that Mint is rather nice, minimal and user friendly enough for me to learn command line while not just throwing myself into the deep end.

I know pretty much nothing about Linux, suggestions welcomed.

I'm gunna leave you anyway.

Offline Slasha

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Re: Linux
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2012, 09:50:57 AM »
I'm using Ubuntu on my ASUS laptop. The installation is very easy and most things worked out of the box, like special keys or touchpad. The new unity desktop is a bit curious though, especially when you're coming from a Windows system. Still, Ubuntu has a very helpful community, so I recommend it for Linux starters.

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Offline Duki3003

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Re: Linux
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2012, 09:51:27 AM »
While Linux Mint is not a bad choice for a beginner, I'd recommend to just go with Ubuntu.
Mint uses Ubuntu as a codebase either way, therefore any updates take a while longer to appear when they are released by Ubuntu team.

Command line is fairly simple to comprehend, and everything can also be done with a package manager.
Pick your flavour (Kubuntu or Ubuntu), everything is made simple - when you install the OS just follow a guide to install mplayer2 and smplayer and enjoy. Play 10bit files and every other media type you'll find.

Offline nstgc

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Re: Linux
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2012, 11:49:59 AM »
I personally prefer Mint over Ubuntu.

Offline Freedom Kira

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Re: Linux
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2012, 12:13:11 PM »
Mint or Ubuntu, like everyone else said. These two distros are the most user/noob-friendly.

Ubuntu gets a rehaul every six months, signified by its release number, which is (year).(month). For example, the latest version is 11.10, released in October (10th month) 2011. The next one is due to come out in April (12.04). Each rehaul requires either a reinstall or a long upgrade process; if you don't upgrade, you start exposing your system to security issues that are no longer being fixed as they are discovered, since the Ubuntu team starts focusing on the new version.

Mint is based off Ubuntu, like Duki said, but the interface is fairly different. I haven't really used it enough to really say much, but I have explored Mint 12 a bit, and I can say it's pretty cool to use once you get used to it, and is pretty awesome once you get to know your way around. Stability-wise, because of the nature of Mint's being developed from Ubuntu's code, Ubuntu gets updates earlier and therefore is more or equally stable at any given time. Looks-wise, Mint had the upper hand over GNOME Classic, but with the new Unity interface that Ubuntu brought recently, the're more or less on par, though I personally think Mint's logo looks nicer. Usability-wise, I'd say Unity (Ubuntu) is just a bit more intuitive to use than Mint.

That's all aesthetics, though. I started with Ubuntu (about three years ago now), and I think you should do the same. Experiment with other distros after you're familiar with the command line, because that will probably be the best life-saver.

Finally, the most important qualities to have when learning Linux are the desire to learn and the courage to try. The best way to learn is to break stuff and figure out how to fix them (that's really how I learned how to do a lot of stuff, believe me). Don't be afraid to screw around with stuff. If you majorly mess something up, you can always just reinstall.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 12:15:27 PM by Freedom Kira »

Offline krumm

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Re: Linux
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2012, 04:36:40 PM »
Why not just go to the source and get Debian.  I like Debian because it is what all the big distros are based off and has a root account unlike Ubuntu.  That said Ubuntu (or Ubuntu based) is probably best for a Linux beginner.

Offline ayakashi

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Re: Linux
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2012, 05:37:37 PM »
Lesson 1:

Linux kernel is just that, a kernel. As a user, you can't do anything with it. An operating system is made of many components, like kernel, GNU tools ("commands"), desktop environment (Gnome, KDE) etc.

I don't really care when people refer to the OS as Linux (rather than GNU/Linux), but when you specifically say Linux kernel, that is definitely incorrect.

As for the tips, if you want to learn to work with command line, get a drop-down terminal emulator, such as Tilda (Gnome) or Yakuake (KDE). You can open the terminal instantly, then hide it, then open it again without losing previous session. Makes your life so much easier.

I also like to use Gnome-Do for launching the programs.

Other than that, good luck!

Offline dogsinafen

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Re: Linux
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2012, 08:42:03 PM »
I use fedora... but ubuntu would indeed be a good one to start with.

I do also like mint.

Offline shikitohno

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Re: Linux
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2012, 07:40:04 AM »
If it were strictly a choice between ubuntu and mint, I'd say just go with mint.  Ubuntu can be fun for learning and playing around with a linux system, but it can also be frustrating sometimes if you want to do something a bit more advanced, because the developers have hidden how some things work or made them more difficult to get at than on other systems in their attempts to make it more user friendly.  Still, both of them have some good things going for them.

Personally, if you want something relatively noob-friendly, I'd suggest Fedora out of personal preference over Ubuntu.  It's what I learned things on, and since pretty much anything you learn on it will be done in a fairly similar way on Red Hat (as far as the basics go, at least), which is one of the more widespread distros you might encounter in a business environment, so it could help you out there. 

For overall preferece, I like Arch, but I wouldn't consider it noob friendly unless you've ot a lot of patience and are good at following technical instructions.  Even then, sometimes it'll just throw you a curve ball.  I got "This should never happen - bailing out" as an error message from the installer once.  ;D  I think a decent idea would be to grab an 8GB thumb drive, head over to distrowatch and check out a bunch of distros.  If you find one you like, download an iso and make a bootable thumbdrive with it.  Then you can test it out without the limitations of a liveCD's sluggishness or formatting your hard drive.  Try out a few, and install the one you enjoy most.  Everyone's needs are different, so while Arch works best for me, you might find it completely unusable.  The good thing is, there are a ton of distros for you to choose from.

Also, on a sidenote, slap whoever told you Mint was minimalist for me.  They might have some nice minimalist looking themes, but unless they've changed things since I last installed them (which granted, is possible seeing as it's been about two years), Ubuntu and Mint have a ton of extra crap in them to make them easier to use out of the box for the largest amount of people.  If you're looking for something minimalist, look elsewhere.  Go upstream a little ways and just get Debian if you want.  You can do a nice minimalist install of Debian, but you'll have to get your hands dirty to do it, rather than the nice streamlined installers for Ubunut/Mint, where you pop in the disk, click a few buttons and go have a beer while it sets up everything for you.  You could also go with Arch or one of the many BSds for minimalism, though they're not particularly known for being noob-friendly. If you can read this and it seems like something you could follow as step by step instructions, then that's another option.  Thre's plenty of links that will lead you to articles explaining how to set up a lot of basic things.  FreeBSD also has some pretty good documentation.  I would advise you to steer clear of anything like Gentoo or LFS.  LFS has you build everything from the ground up, yourself, which is obviously rather overwhelming (I want to try it, but I'm not sure I could pull it off all the time without getting angry).  And while Gentoo doesn't necessarily have to be any more difficult than Arch, if you're not compiling from source for the majority of your packages, you're missng the point of running Gentoo in my opinion.  And if you are, it's a much bigger headache for the beginner just trying to learn.

Short version:  Don't limit yourself to one version or another right off the bat.  There's tons of distros out their with various strengths and weaknesses.  So try a bunch and find one that works for you, and slap that person who said Mint was minimalist for me.

Edit:  Also, if we're recommending things, it'd be useful to know a little bit about your laptop.  The thing that specifically comes to mind is, are you using a BIOS boot or UEFI, and do you use or plan on getting a harddrive for this system that's larger than 2TB?  I just spent my entire weekend on another forum about 2 weeks ago helping some guy out becaus he was in the same situation.  He went with Ubuntu (I was the only dissenting vote, again pushing Fedora instead) because a ton of people said they liked it.  Two days of nearly constant back and forth with him, and then he mentioned that he was trying to install to a UEFI system, and wanted to install to a 3TB drive.  I'm pretty sure Ubuntu automagically wil configure everything for a UEFI boot now, but the last time I looked, it absolutely will not work with a drive that's larger than 2TB out of the box.  This is because Ubuntu doesn't enable a necessary kernel module in their stock kernel.  It's relatively simple to fix it (just compile your own kernel and enable that option, there's plenty of guides online), but it might be quite a bit more work than what you want to do right away.  I know Fedora is one of the noob-friendly distros that'll work out of the box with such a system, though.  Still, if you gives us some info about the system you plan to install on, like parts and such, we'll be better able to tell you what will and won't work, or warn you about any pitfalls you might encounter.  It's a lot better to learn about these things beforehand, rather than realising there was a bug in the drivers fo your networking hardware and that you'll have no internet access after you've already formatted your harddrive.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 07:55:50 AM by shikitohno »

Offline datora

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Re: Linux
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2012, 09:44:32 AM »
.
If I was doing it today (which I hope to this summer), my first choices would be Ubuntu/Kbuntu, Mint and Knoppix (designed the first liveCD ever; I remember booting one of my PCs from a CD glued into a linux magazine and it was all kinds of Whoa!WOW! at the time).  If you have a little money to throw around, you can spend about $30 or $40 and get three 8GB USB 2 drives and install each of those to its own drive, then plug in and boot to linux whenever you're feeling like playing with one.

USB 2 will be a little sluggish, but not horribly so and will be a serious improvement over the live CD experience.  All your config & update and package installs will be saved, at the least, plus much faster than CD.  Don't have to partition your harddrive and get messy that way, either.  You also have the option to wipe any drive at any time and try a different distro.

The big difference between Ubuntu/Kbuntu and Mint is that the Ubuntu mission is all about an install without any software that relies on licensing.  It shoots for 100% open source and compromises on applications a little by going with free & open whenever there's any choice.  What this means is that some things you'll have to install and configure yourself.

Mint is less strict on that policy, so more common packages are part of the distro, although you have to accept licensing terms in some cases.  Mint is designed to be an Ubuntu install that has the extra packages included, with a goal of a multimedia machine that handles graphics and media (music, movies), as well as somewhat better game support.

I'm 2 years out from the last time I booted to linux, so I consider myself to be 'starting from scratch' again, although I played with Unix, Solaris, freeBSD and linux a bit from ~1996 - 2005.  Agreed, Gentoo is not for complete n00bs, although it is one of the most interesting distros out there and I'm glad to see it's still surviving.  there was some question about that a few years back.

I'd also save Debian until after you've got a few hours under your belt.  Undoubtedly better than it was even three years ago, it's a distro that always expects you to have basic knowledge in place.

As for minimalist, once you've a few hours under your belt, puppy linux has been quite popular for several years.  Supposed to hit a fairly sweet spot for low resource use yet still powerful install that beginners (not n00bs) can get a handle on.

As mentioned above, you need to want to play with linux at this point.  There will be some pain, but every time you run into something that stumps you, just imagine what it was like ten years ago.  And, in 2002 I was very happy with how much better it was than 1995-ish.  I think the first time I tried to take on linux was a Red Hat distro in 1994.  Which was ... traumatic.  Pre-Pentium III days, FTW.   ;) ;D

Managed to never actually play with Fedora, but have only heard Good Things about it.  I was really happy with S.u.S.E. for a while.  It was quite the shizzle circa ~1998-2000 (robust multi-processer support, several great desktops to choose from, and used to come with a copy of VMware as part of the retail package).  Has since become openSUSE, which I haven't played with in ~10 years.  But, it has a solid rep as a very solid tech package.  Worth a look into when you're ready to step up to distros like Debian, Gentoo & Red Hat.
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Offline xShadow

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Re: Linux
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2012, 01:42:52 PM »
Suggestion:
1. Install Virtualbox.
2. Install Ubuntu on it.

Step 2 is extremely straightforward with Virtualbox.

That's probably as easy as it gets. Even I did it.

<Initiate Unrelated History TimeTM>
Basically, one of my ECE classes required us to code MIPs and C, and it wanted us to use gcc as our compiler, which was pretty much preloaded onto it.

(click to show/hide)

Being a complete newb to any Linux at all, I first tried doing a Live CD... but realized I couldn't save C files or anything. Then I ran it off of USB, but then I realized that USB is a pretty lackluster solution, considering that it's slower... and at the time I didn't have many 4 gig USBs; I didn't wanna shorten their lifespan too much, especially considering that I'd already run Quartus II project simulations enough times off them.

Then, I found Virtualbox. Easy to set up, did pretty much anything a normal installation would do, and and best of all it was completely contained inside of a program. Moreover, I could actually move around the installation between my laptop and desktop, because it was simply a virtual disk (mind you I don't suggest doing this much, because it can get a bit buggy).
<End>


So, if I had to suggest anything, I would suggest just doing a virtual installation. For just learning Linux, the pros far outweigh the cons. I mean really... the internet works with it (and if you do a bit of tinkering, most other stuff does, too), and you literally can't fuck anything up.

Though I may be wrong because as far as I was concerned all I needed to do was compile C and assembly code... I didn't do too many packages and crap.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 01:52:37 PM by xShadow »

Cute, huh?

Offline Kyrdua

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Re: Linux
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2012, 02:14:55 PM »
Ubuntu or Opensuse.

Go with Gnome Ubuntu (the main "Ubuntu") and KDE for Opensuse.

though really, it's ubuntu for first timer because it's popular. and because of that, if you got any question you'd have better luck on support in the community since more people use it.
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Offline shikitohno

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Re: Linux
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2012, 08:04:55 AM »
though really, it's ubuntu for first timer because it's popular. and because of that, if you got any question you'd have better luck on support in the community since more people use it.

Okay, I guess I'll have to be the one to point out how silly this statement is.  Popularity does not equate with quality.  And Ubuntu's community support has mostly just been noise, in my experience.  You get everyone posting a reply with half-baked solutions, often going on the vaguest of descriptions of what the problem is.  This really hurts the contributions of those Ubuntu users who actually know what they're talking about, because you wind up with one or two guys making sane posts, buried within a 10 page long thread.  It's not very helpful for beginners to sell them on a distro as having good community support when they have to try and pick out th 5% of responses in a thread asking for help that they should actually pay attention to.

They've definitely got some very knowledgable people on their forums.  Still, nobody really bothers to tell the people who don't know what they're talking about to shut up, so it brings down the worth of the whole thing.

Offline kitamesume

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Re: Linux
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2012, 08:47:07 AM »
^ i get this guy's point, he meant that the more popular it is the more dumb people would want to try it, creating an off-set on the balance of those who know and those who doesn't.

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Offline Kyrdua

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Re: Linux
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2012, 08:56:05 AM »
Popularity does not equal quality. yet you're talking about the community and not the popular distro itself.
I think what you're trying to say here is too many cooks spoil the soup.

Fun fact. I learned to use ubuntu on my own and just lurked around ubuntu forums or searched blogs and never asked whenever i have a problem. Since all of the answers to my problems already have solutions in blogs/forums.

So you may be right, but an experienced Windows user who wants to try out Linux will not have to deal with the "experts" helping (read: making them read technobabble manuals) them. Because more often than not, the problems they'll encounter have been answered long before they even heard of or wanted to try linux.
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Offline Duki3003

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Re: Linux
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2012, 09:22:13 AM »
I have to agree with Kyrdua, I too have never had to ask a question because every problem I encountered usually had a solution already or was trivial in nature. Google is your friend to pinpoint the problem and the solution.
Also a common [SOLVED] addition in the topic can tell you you're on the right track.

Offline kitamesume

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Re: Linux
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2012, 09:23:32 AM »
ehh, can't really argue with that, yet look at apple, too many fanboys tells its DAH BEST and there goes the whole argument, forget about the disadvantages of the thing, once they say its DAH BEST it'll aways be. <,<

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Offline Kyrdua

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Re: Linux
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2012, 09:30:49 AM »
ehh, can't really argue with that, yet look at apple, too many fanboys tells its DAH BEST and there goes the whole argument, forget about the disadvantages of the thing, once they say its DAH BEST it'll aways be. <,<

there's your problem.
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Offline kitamesume

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Re: Linux
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2012, 09:55:32 AM »
^yea i know, and there are alot on linux as well, i got a friend of mine thats so addicted to linux that he barely recognizes windows7, last time he had a hand on a windows OS was the traumatic Vista... all he says is, why the hell would i need to switch over to windows when i have the best OS EVAR!

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Offline Mirgond

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Re: Linux
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2012, 12:03:27 PM »
The Archlinux Wiki should help with a lot of Linux problems.