Holy Tablet OS... I mean Windows 8

[Proin Drakenzol]

I would be very surprised if Windows 8 didn't allow a "classic" or "aero" (preferably both) view for desktops. The one thing I'm hoping for now is that Intel's new mobile-chips crush ARM and make x86-64 the unified computing architecture.

@iindigo: still at Temple University Tokyo?

[iindigo]

Well, the current build of the Windows beta completely removes the classic start menu in favor of the metro start screen. The result is this big awkward screen flashing up any time you need the start menu, even in desktop mode.

@Proin: No, I've been back in the US ever since the earthquake. I'll probably be back in Tokyo to help my old roommate with a business venture in a month or so, though.

[FlyinPenguin]

In a nutshell, Linux isn't a fit for general consumers until:

1) You guys agree on some standards. Variety is good, but it's possible to have too much of anything.
2) You no longer need to use the command line for anything, ever. Period. I don't mind CLI and use it all the time on OS X, but to the general consumer it's just that scary thing hackers use on bad computer movies.
3) You no longer have to go diving for random config files when something breaks.

And while it isn't strictly required, gaining widespread support from commercial software vendors would do wonders for the adoption of various Linux distributions.

Well, Linux is able to run the $200 plus software developed for Windows using Wine and VM, which actually isn't that complicated if one reads the basic tuts. Linux has the advantage of running equivalent software for free without having to learn anything relating to hacking and customization. IMOP that gives Linux a huge advantage but it has to deal with the fear mongering put forth by Windows fanboys who don't want to admit Linux is no t only capable of running their software but also can run equivalent software with a lot less effort.

I do understand your point though. Most people look at the box for supported OS when they buy software/games from Wal-Mart/Best-Buy/etc. Let's not forget  that Microsoft is actively putting pressure on both software AND hardware manufacturers NOT to support Linux. For a brief period Dell was offering its Netbooks with an option of either Windows XP or Ubuntu. Microsoft pressured Dell to drop its Linux support. No surprise since a substantial amount of customers actually requested the cheaper OS (free) (Ubuntu).

[lapa321]

Well, first of all as far as the network integration, of course a full fledged OS has an advantage over a mobile OS.

Not quite sure what that has to do with anything. It's just a matter of network protocols being applied right? Is there anything stopping them from implementing the full suite on the mobile? Is there anything keeping them from implementing Network Printing? Having network browsing integrated into the file system? (neither Android nor iOS lets you do that). There are apps that do it, so it's not like it's a limitation of the OS.

Anyway, my thoughts.

I managed to free up a spare laptop harddrive and tried it today on the Atom. The taskbar is still there and it seems to still work the same way. The only major change if seen so far that would affect me is that of the Start menu being replaced by Metro. The application icons on the taskbar still stack.

Activating the Start menu is still the same for me. I don't actually click on the start button. I've always dragged the mouse all the way to the left corner and clicked. To minimize everything,  drag to the lower right and click. On the new interface, the left side of the taskbar is the new 'start' button, and the right side is the usual minimize button.

Since Windows7 when i started pinning everything to the taskbar, the start menu has become a mess. I used to keep everything in folders inside the start menu so i can have easy access from Win95 to XP, but Win7's ability to pin meant i just use the application once, and the pin their taskbar icon to make them stick there permanently.

The middle button functionality on the taskbar got passed on to metro. Using notepad as an example, if you were to pin its icon to the Win7 taskbar, middle clicking it would launch a new instance of it. So if you middle click notepad three times, you end up with three notepads on your desktop. If you hover over the notepad icon, thumbnails of the three apps would appear above the icon, and if you middle click those, that instance gets closed. I first learned this on the webbrowsers (It's always been "middleclick link = launch new instance" and "middleclick icon/tab = close instance") before i started doing it to the desktop applications too.

The desktop is still intact, so the new interface does not affect your productivity wise. Programs are still running in windows. You can still have a little video players on top of the spreadsheet you're working on.

The main thing that would affect me is that i'll likely move most of the pinned shortcuts on my Win7 taskbar to Metro.

To Launch on the Different OSes, this is how i used to go through to launch Firefox as an example:

WinXP:
Click Start -> Click 'Communications' folder -> Click 'Firefox'

Win7:
Click Start -> Click 'Programs' -> Click 'Communications' folder -> Click 'Firefox'

Win8:
Click Start -> Click 'Firefox'


If you look at Metro as an enhancement of the Start Menu launcher, rather than the entire Win8 (It still primarily uses Explorer.exe). It does have potential. I'm a web developer and i do a lot of multitasking. So i'm always looking at devices on how useful, detrimental, or adjustments they are to my work. From what i'm seeing so far, i think i'll have no problem working on this. The Win7 taskbar is the one thing that i really appreciate over WinXP. Metro seems like a good way to act as a drawer for my commonly used programs. I have to minimize everything to access the desktop icons, and the task bar isn't big enough to house everything, so this is a good alternative.

BTW, i have not yet watched any Win8 video, article, or reviews, i just downloaded it and exploring with no prior knowledge on where everything is. I've only googled twice. The first was the error i kept getting while installing (Recommendation is to install Win7 first since it has working drivers, and have the Win8 installer run off that), the second was when i was looking for the shutdown button. The rest was just applying how i used the Win7 Taskbar (Corners, middleclick, tabs, etc.). Configuring it was identical to Win7 since the Control Panel and Desktop were still intact.


After using it for a bit. I really don't get the hostility towards metro. Right now on Win7, i have to click the Start button and browse through the dozens of folders and links to get at the program i need.  Metro basically has all the commonly used applications in big icons right in the middle of my screen when i press the start button. The unnecessary ones i simply unpin (Metro links are also 'pinned' like in the taskbar, they are not individual links) and the metro can tone down on the clutter.

[Hadouken]

I don't mind the metroUI much tbh. The IE app is pretty cool and I hope mozilla does something like that for windows 8.

[Freedom Kira]

To Launch on the Different OSes, this is how i used to go through to launch Firefox as an example:

WinXP:
Click Start -> Click 'Communications' folder -> Click 'Firefox'

Win7:
Click Start -> Click 'Programs' -> Click 'Communications' folder -> Click 'Firefox'

Win8:
Click Start -> Click 'Firefox'

You have quite a painful way of starting up a program you probably use often. My route would probably be:

XP:
Start -> Internet (Firefox would be default, or whatever I use as default, which is Chrome for me)

Or even better:
Quick Launch -> Firefox

And it's not much different for 7, since the taskbar is basically Quick Launch merged with the classic taskbar.

[lapa321]

To Launch on the Different OSes, this is how i used to go through to launch Firefox as an example:

WinXP:
Click Start -> Click 'Communications' folder -> Click 'Firefox'

Win7:
Click Start -> Click 'Programs' -> Click 'Communications' folder -> Click 'Firefox'

Win8:
Click Start -> Click 'Firefox'

You have quite a painful way of starting up a program you probably use often. My route would probably be:

XP:
Start -> Internet (Firefox would be default, or whatever I use as default, which is Chrome for me)

Or even better:
Quick Launch -> Firefox

And it's not much different for 7, since the taskbar is basically Quick Launch merged with the classic taskbar.

You can put them on the taskbar on win8 as well. The point is, navigating through metro is easier than the previous start menu.

Right now my Win7 task bar has 13 pinned icons to it, they're the ones i use more often and would be adding more if i had the space. I add and remove them depending on the current project. If a project needs an application, i only have to go through the start menu once, and when the program is running, i simply have to pin its icon and i'll never have to go through the start menu again.

I've been talking to some of my techie friends and much like you, their own way is to also avoid using the start menu. The other solution is to put everything in the root of your start menu. But you just end up with a ton of links you have to scroll through. People rant about how they don't want the start button to disappear, yet they'll readily give tips that essentially avoids using the start menu altogether.

I've been aware of how crowded the start menu is becoming since i started using Win7 (Win7 Taskbar was the selling point for me over WinXP because of how easy it is to pin!) and i can honestly say that i'm already appreciating Metro five minutes after booting up Win8.

Right now if you wanted to run an application from your start menu. This is probably what you'd be running into



As many as 20 links in a single folder where you only really ever use 2. When you install a single application, that's another four links added to your start menu (program, uninstall, help, webpage). To keep some semblance of order, i actually made a miscellaneous folder in my start menu and just kept dumping all the other links in it.

Applications come with so many miscellaneous links now that the start menu is more like a file browser. It's like opening File Explorer (Win-E) and browsing through your C:\programs folders to get at the EXE. That's what the Start Menu looks like now.


When i tried out Win8. I found that the Start Screen now works a lot like the Win7 Task Bar, there's a secondary page that you can bring up with the right click.



It shows all the links in what would normally be the start menu. From here you rightclick and pin the applications you need. Skip all the other readme and config, just pick the actual applications you use (I have the adobe suite, but only need three or four applications) and pin them.



So now when you press the Windows Key on your keyboard. You no longer have to 'browse' for you applications. It's already right there, and if you need to access the config or readme, everything is still in secondary screen. I'm setting up the Atom rig right now and it looks like the more permanent taskbar links are going to be moved to the metro screen.



BTW, the shortcuts on my desktop are mostly games. Because the only time i ever see the background is when i'm not working.

[krumm]

metro just plain sucks.  I have NO problem with win7 start menu and see it as the best version to date.  The only time you have to go through the list is when you are using a rarely used program that you don't know the name to.  For commonly used programs you pin them to the start menu and task bar  For a less used program all I have to do is type like 3-5 letters and it pops right up.  Metro is painfully annoying and not good for the desktop.  We should be able to disable it.

[Bob2004]

Yeah, the way I see it, you can't make it possible to access all your programs quickly with a single click, because there are too many. So you have to divide them up into two groups - a small group of programs you use regularly and need to be able to access quickly and easily, and other programs which you use less frequently, and therefore don't need/expect to access as quickly as possible.

For the first group, you pin them to the taskbar/quick launch bar, or put icons on your desktop - which are the quickest ways of doing it, whichever version of Windows you use - so the start menu/Metro makes no difference. It doesn't matter if it's quicker to access those programs using Metro than using the start menu, because realistically, you're not going to use either.

For the second group, no matter what you do, you're going to have to click through a couple of submenus or folders (or, in the current start menu's case, type a few letters of the name), since having them all spread out in a single menu is too slow and confusing. And when it comes to locating and starting these less-used programs, the current start menu is far quicker than Metro.

So, basically, other than its ease of use with touchscreen devices, the only advantage Metro has over the start menu is totally irrelevant. That's why so many people hate it.

[lapa321]

What's amusing is that in all the forums i've been to discussing it. It seems that the best way to use the Win7 start menu is to not use it at all.

I currently have 13 icons pinned to my taskbar. The taskbar is great and it was a selling point for me when i migrated from WinXP. It lets me easily setup temporary links depending on the immediate needs for a project i'm working one. The fact that you don't have to make new shortcuts each time and you can stack and launch multiple instances is a big thing for when you're working. WinXP also lets you stack but the Win7 is just an order of magnitude better.

However, as i've said, i have 13 icons on it right now that's constantly changing (This project doesn't need photoshop, right-click unpin, this one needs constant access to the ftp application, launch filezilla once and pin). There are more links that i also want but can't fit any more.

On Win8 i'm actually moving the more permanent taskbar links to Metro and free it up some.

metro just plain sucks.  I have NO problem with win7 start menu and see it as the best version to date.  The only time you have to go through the list is when you are using a rarely used program that you don't know the name to.  For commonly used programs you pin them to the start menu and task bar  For a less used program all I have to do is type like 3-5 letters and it pops right up.  Metro is painfully annoying and not good for the desktop.  We should be able to disable it.

Yeah, this is a pretty good example of what i'm talking about. They avoid browsing the start menu as much as possible and prefer to use the search function instead. That's not really a good way of launching an application. Your use of the find function just shows that the start menu is just too cluttered to navigate.

The 'find' function you like so much on the Win7 start button is still there in Win8. Press the start button on your keyboard and start typing, just like how you're doing it on Win7.

The find function is great, but it doesn't cover up the fact that the start menu is the slowest part of your desktop right now. They did wonders with the task bar. The ability to turn on your second monitor and move application windows around without taking your hands off the keyboard is great. You can have dozens of windows open at once and rather than just the old ALT-TAB, Win7's ALT-TAB lets you see exactly which window you're going into (Multiple instances means they all use the same icon! Win7 shows you thumbnails) and you can use CTRL-ALT-TAB if you want to go straight to the window you want. And if you want a specific instance and don't want to browse through all the open applications, you can hover over the taskbar icon and it will display only the instances of that program. They did such a good job with the taskbar that it's now an alternative to the start menu.

In one of the discussions, someone brought up the old Win95 menu. And i'll have to agree, even that was better than the Win7 one. There's no scrolling involved. If you expand a program group, it gets expanded on a new window and you simply follow it to the program you want. The Win7 treats it like a file explorer, you 'browse' your start menu by expanding and scrolling until you find your program.


There's likely another, better way to improve the start menu. But at the moment, organizing your applications is easier on the Metro.

[Freedom Kira]

Despite what I said about avoiding the start menu, I actually do like the Windows 7 Start menu. Most of the reasons Krumm has already mentioned. Another is that I'm more of a text guy than an icon guy - I can find stuff more quickly in a list than in an array of icons, even if the icons are arranged in the same order, largely because they are more spaced out (eyes have to cover more area yadda yadda). I would thus have a better time with the Windows 7 list-style Start menu than Metro.

The Start menu slows you down a bit compared to what you can do otherwise (i.e. what I described earlier), but I find that Metro slows me down far more.

Honestly though, the Metro UI is great for someone who's getting into computers for the first time and has not been indoctrinated into the classic Start menu-based UI. It's a nice, sleek, easy-to-use interface for any beginner. OTOH, that kinda leaves us experienced users off to the sidelines.

[lapa321]

IMO, the WinXP start menu was faster than Win7. This was the original Start Menu.



All that was compressed into a single list in Win7



I have no idea what made them do that aside from aesthetic reasons. But in terms of how fast i'm able to access my applications, It's WinXP>Win8>Win7. Win7 has you scrolling through a list, Win8 lets you pick specific applications to display from a master list, WinXP was and still is, the fastest and most convenient way to access all your applications and related program links.

[Bob2004]

I agree - a combination of the Windows XP start menu, but with the Windows 7 search features would be really good. Better than both XP and 7 (and, indeed, .

[avatarl]

Well, I've been testing Windows 8 for some days.

The Good: 

1.Yeah, the under the hood improvements are pretty obvious, the explorer can handly a folder with many and large files really fast, in contrast to Win7 where sorting a humongous folder takes a while.  I don't mind the Ribbon UI, I hardly ever used the original menu in explorer anyway.

2. Installed pretty much every driver I needed from the getgo, save the Asus Xonar D2 drivers.  The Unixonar Windows 7 drivers worked though, once you get over the blue application blocking bar.

3. I hardly ever had to restart, be it driver install, antivirus, or whatever and everything seems to be working normally regardless.

The Whatever:

The MetroUI START itself can be gotten used to.  I had no really issues with the Start button itself.  It is a bit disorienting moving back and forth between the fullscreen Start and the desktop, but other than that, if customized, it's effective.

The Bad:

1. The Metro apps... For tablets or phones, it's one of the same stuff, but for a large desktop screen that you need to multitask efficiently, forced fullscreen apps of (right now) limited functionality are as bad as they can possibly be.  When those apps are social or music apps, it only gets worse.  I tried using the messaging metro app, I even tried snapping it left while I was using the desktop.  It doesn't work right.  First of all, the white app background makes a glaring contrast to my desktop wallpaper.  Then, I can't tell which of my friends are online, I need the People app for that, and you can't stack 2 apps and the desktop alongside so I either have to leave the desktop to check or do something as counterproductive as that.  They seriously need to rethink the whole fullscreen app approach as far as the desktop PC is concerned.  Even if all the apps were metro written, juggling between fullscreen apps in metro is horrid.  On desktop I can one-click to a specific open app, either by having placed the windows right or by using the always on taskbar.  Corrent window placement actually helps not having to go back and forth all the time.  You can also invoke smaller windows to the front without losing focus of whatever's in the back.  The Always On Top function in desktop app always helped if you always need the smaller windows up front, but you want to be able to check the background windows for whatever you need.  Also, no close or minimize button inside the Metro app itself? I have to scroll to the top left, slide and then right-click to close? What's with that??

Overall, it's unfortunately a nice improvement over Windows 7, the Metro apps though just don't work.  I tried liking them, like I tried liking Metro Start.  I can put up with Metro Start now, but the Metro apps are just a no-no, possibly a deal-breaker as they are now.  And I'm computer literate enough, the average Joe will just look at Windows 8 on a desktop and cry "Hell, no!", then go back to 7 (or even XP).  The sad part is they'll be partly right.