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Are You Getting an Arts Degree?

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rostheferret:

--- Quote from: Nikkoru on March 06, 2012, 12:20:24 AM ---I've known Science students who show up to class drunk. To each there own.
--- End quote ---

Until you've actually been involved in part of a Research team, I don't think you can quite comprehend how hair-wrenchingly soul destroying the process is. To save funding they've handed you a magnifying glass when you asked for a Scanning Electron Microscope, you have professor's tossing you 'little bits of work' that "won't take you long" but actually add another year to your workload before you're allowed to finally get that next diploma or prepare that next paper, all the whilst they're breathing down your neck asking what the hell is taking you so long. As if the fact I'm having to toss 80% of my information isn't enough. This machine may have worked fine when you were my age, but now I have to scrape off the biochemical gunk with a spatula from the last guy who abused it - fuck knows what that is (once it turned out they were experimenting with retro-viruses, that shit shouldn't have left the clean room) - and all the other 40 years of contaminants my results are telling me this plastic is a living organism. Through concern that you aren't getting enough done in your sleep deprived state - I knew guys who regularly wouldn't go home for the best part of a week to try and meet impossible deadlines, these are guys with a wife and kids at home - so call you up at 6pm and ask if you can prepare a presentation on all the shit your behind on tomorrow morning. All the whilst you're trying to get this experiment to work and figure out what little thing you're missing which is causing the system to go all haywire; whether you fucked up or it's the 40 year old equipment that should have been tossed out years ago only matters in the sense that it narrows down the problems for you to fix. And every time you fix a problem, another one arrives. Maybe it's still not working as it should, or maybe you can't even do the experiment any more because some other department has stolen your cheapass thermocouple and you need to requisition another one; either taking months and possibly being told bollocks about 'lack of funding,' or as was more often the case you pretended you were some sort of ninja - and lets be honest, seeing as the only reason you're awake right now is the red bull and occasional line of coke probably means you could believe it - stealing codes for the locked lab doors of other departments to see if they were the thieving bastards. This was my final year of university. I spent 3 months in a lab next to a chunk of the ceiling that had fallen down a week previous, sitting on a barrel of liquid hydrogen smoking out the window using the only piece of equipment in apparent working order because nobody knew how the fuck it worked, desperately trying to obtain enough viable results that I could bullshit my way through my final thesis and not flunk the year. Believe it or not, I did arrive drunk on more than a few occasions, because it was the only way I could tell my professors where they could shove that material characterisations analysis where the sun don't shine; the only way I could stop tearing my hair out at every benign question and pointless exercise. Physicists get blasted with fire, burnt by molten metal, crushed and witness minor explosions. More than a few of my colleagues were nearly hospitalised during my uni course (if you're best friend is a moron, ditch the friend). Chemists have skins like leather from the amount of chemicals that accidentally fall on their hands, and Bio majors deal with shit that kills people on a daily basis. I don't have anything against people who major in other subjects, but I can't imagine the pressure being even on the same scale. Oh no, you have to read a lot. Here's the world's smallest violin playing just for you. Suck it up, I just had to don a balaclava and break into a lab so I can do my fucking work.

Sorry, I got a little carried away there.



--- Quote from: Nikkoru on March 06, 2012, 09:25:31 AM ---My mother, father, and uncle all have BAs, my mother has three. Outside of the fact that they went on to get further education and become successful in their eventual careers, they're all well rounded individuals. My father can quote Confucius, Marx, Siddhattha, Christ, and Spinoza word for word. My uncle can recognize architecture on sight, from any time and any place, describe how it was made and the cultural subtext. My mother speaks five languages and can talk expansively about political theory.

Even if their BAs did not contribute to their eventual careers, it made them better people. They studied, embraced the material, lived and breathed it. It's the difference between someone getting a degree and getting a real education.

I have a BA in sociology, I see the world differently - clearer - because of this.

--- End quote ---

Do you see the world differently BECAUSE you have a BA, or because you studied Sociology? Whilst studying for my science degree I grew an interest in other area's; Politics, History, Law, even Creative Writing and Music History. I have a greater appreciation of the arts - believe it or not after all that - but I didn't get it from a piece of paper. I have a greater understanding of things like communism and the sociological and cultural differences between nations but I didn't attain it by sitting in a room being spoon fed information like a baby. I fucking got a job and went there, immersed myself in their ways - if only for a short period of time - to try and get my head around the mindset. Art's implies creativity. You don't "teach" creativity, you work at it yourself. My writing improved by *gasp* fucking writing. I started writing a novel and now I look back on it I realise how much I've improved in a year's time. I have work from nearly four years ago online - music reviews mostly - that's fucking atrocious, but I keep it there as a reminder. And not only has this helped my ability to write creatively but it's improved my knowledge of music; I've had to look into other bands, find comparisons, research the etymology and even form my own musical links, bands playing material that was before their time. This is why people say Arts degree's are worthless, not because they're against people who are so inclined but because if you REALLY wanted to be a photographer, you'd spend less time paying to sit in a classroom and more time outside taking some god damn pictures.

SirSkyRider:
Art is not only measured by creativity but also by technique. Almost any great artist had to learn the basics of painting, sculpting or whatever he was doing. Without technique or skill creativity is worthless.

Furthermore, to call yourself a "photographer" in germany you need to have a university degree or a completed an apprenticeship at a master photographer. :P

rostheferret:
True, but I was finger painting by the age of three. I remember painting with a brush by the age of four. Do you need someone sitting beside you teaching you how when you push clay with your hands it moves? Again, covered that in my first few years of life. Any additional information is where books come in. Don't get me wrong, doing things with COMPLETE independence isn't particularly advised, but you don't need a degree course to teach you advanced techniques. Do you say to musicians they can't be a musician without a degree too? Apprenticeships, perhaps; at least then you're still learning by doing. That's the point I want to emphasise; nobody learnt how to be a master artist without doing some artwork, and you don't need to pay a university for that.

SirSkyRider:
Almost any big artist has been either at an academy or in an apprenticeship at a master. Yes, it is possible to learn things without a proper teacher but the number of people who can learn advanced techniques unguided is very limited.

And I think you may have misunderstood me. It is not allowed BY LAW. You have to get either an academic degree or be taught by a master or else you can't call yourself a photographer. This is among the "protected job names", where you'll also find lawyers, physicians or dentists.

Studying art or photography at an university also has two huge benefits: The first is networking. You can actually go and do internships at companies that can eventually hire you if you make a good impression. And if you want to become a freelancer, they can still give you a job to do for them. Someone who has taught himself or was an apprentice will have it much more harder getting into these networks. Second, a degree is still a door opener. No matter what you do. And if you do languages, some companies EXPECT you to present a paper saying that you have successfully achieved this or this level with a language.

Nikkoru:

--- Quote from: rostheferret on March 06, 2012, 11:39:13 AM ---
--- Quote from: Nikkoru on March 06, 2012, 12:20:24 AM ---I've known Science students who show up to class drunk. To each there own.
--- End quote ---

Until you've actually been involved in part of a Research team, I don't think you can quite comprehend how hair-wrenchingly soul destroying the process is....Oh no, you have to read a lot. Here's the world's smallest violin playing just for you. Suck it up, I just had to don a balaclava and break into a lab so I can do my fucking work.

Sorry, I got a little carried away there.

--- End quote ---

I've done research, but nothing potentially hazardous. My other degree is in applied mathematics with an emphasis on statistics, the labs in question were quite different from those you described obviously. The closest I've been to danger is getting a deep paper cut, and most everything I require to complete them are on my laptop. My point wasn't it's fine to be drunk or careless whenever you want, which should be obvious to everyone when working with harmful chemicals. Merely that working in the sciences doesn't make you healthy, wealthy, and wise in and of itself. Or conversely that studying in the arts means your intentions are merely to party hard and fail at life.

However, I honestly didn't care how people spent their time in university so long as it didn't adversely affect my studies. 


--- Quote from: rostheferret on March 06, 2012, 11:39:13 AM ---
--- Quote from: Nikkoru on March 06, 2012, 09:25:31 AM ---My mother, father, and uncle all have BAs, my mother has three. Outside of the fact that they went on to get further education and become successful in their eventual careers, they're all well rounded individuals. My father can quote Confucius, Marx, Siddhattha, Christ, and Spinoza word for word. My uncle can recognize architecture on sight, from any time and any place, describe how it was made and the cultural subtext. My mother speaks five languages and can talk expansively about political theory.

Even if their BAs did not contribute to their eventual careers, it made them better people. They studied, embraced the material, lived and breathed it. It's the difference between someone getting a degree and getting a real education.

I have a BA in sociology, I see the world differently - clearer - because of this.

--- End quote ---

Do you see the world differently BECAUSE you have a BA, or because you studied Sociology? Whilst studying for my science degree I grew an interest in other area's; Politics, History, Law, even Creative Writing and Music History. I have a greater appreciation of the arts - believe it or not after all that - but I didn't get it from a piece of paper. I have a greater understanding of things like communism and the sociological and cultural differences between nations but I didn't attain it by sitting in a room being spoon fed information like a baby. I fucking got a job and went there, immersed myself in their ways - if only for a short period of time - to try and get my head around the mindset. Art's implies creativity. You don't "teach" creativity, you work at it yourself. My writing improved by *gasp* fucking writing. I started writing a novel and now I look back on it I realise how much I've improved in a year's time. I have work from nearly four years ago online - music reviews mostly - that's fucking atrocious, but I keep it there as a reminder. And not only has this helped my ability to write creatively but it's improved my knowledge of music; I've had to look into other bands, find comparisons, research the etymology and even form my own musical links, bands playing material that was before their time. This is why people say Arts degree's are worthless, not because they're against people who are so inclined but because if you REALLY wanted to be a photographer, you'd spend less time paying to sit in a classroom and more time outside taking some god damn pictures.

--- End quote ---

A BA or BS doesn't mean anything to me in an of itself, it's an arbitrarily decided upon point of academic competency I could have gotten one without any genuine interest in the subject matter or a great deal of effort - it merely represents the level of interest I have in the subject. I love sociology, I loved many of the liberal arts courses I took and didn't have sufficient credits to major in.

AS for the rest, it's not without its truth, but it's not the only way to see things. There is only so far that an individual can carry themselves in any endeavour. Would you criticize a violinist for seeking classical training, when they're capable of practising on their own? Do you see no value in a painter immersing herself in aesthetic theory and art history? Do you really think you can become a philosopher without studying the canon and genuinely comprehending it, by simply walking the land like Kain from Kung-Fu? Do you think you can decode the human psyche by simply talking to people?

Do you think I would be stupid enough to insinuate that a Bachelor of Science is stupid when you can buy a chemistry set at your local Toys-R-Us and there's always wikipedia for the tricky areas? How about handing a star-map to astronomy students and suggesting that they should just squint?

Practice certainly helps in writing, but so does reading a lot of different authors and comprehending literary theory. Flying to Cuba to experience Latin forms of Marxism does give one perspective, but so does reading and understanding Marx. There is far more to understanding culture than one can glean from participating in it, just as there is far more significance in history than what a tour guide provides.

Undergrad courses in University aren't about achieving scholarly status by drip drying it from professors and staff, it's about having the theoretical underpinnings to be able to view the world on your own terms. The quest is yours, the world and its infinite complexity for you to unmask - it's too vast and difficult to go unarmoured and unarmed.


--- Quote from: rostheferret on March 06, 2012, 12:52:02 PM ---True, but I was finger painting by the age of three. I remember painting with a brush by the age of four. Do you need someone sitting beside you teaching you how when you push clay with your hands it moves? Again, covered that in my first few years of life. Any additional information is where books come in. Don't get me wrong, doing things with COMPLETE independence isn't particularly advised, but you don't need a degree course to teach you advanced techniques. Do you say to musicians they can't be a musician without a degree too? Apprenticeships, perhaps; at least then you're still learning by doing. That's the point I want to emphasise; nobody learnt how to be a master artist without doing some artwork, and you don't need to pay a university for that.

--- End quote ---

Then, at what level do you become sufficiently aware of "advanced techniques"? What is the minimum? Have you ever been to an art school? Do you think they sit around with pads of paper writing mathematical equations and sipping tea? They practice, endlessly, until their motions are as simple and refined to near mechanical precision - like a computer printer. That isn't just taught, but nor is it divined from the heavens.

Edit; I've seen art academy students do work which would make me bow down and worship them, then just scrap it like it was nothing. I've heard musicians play who could bring me to tears, and they still felt they were inadequate and amateurish, That's because they care about what they're doing and are committed to bringing themselves to greater heights, that's why they're there.

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