Author Topic: Im Building a (Linux) Desktop  (Read 1259 times)

Offline firefish5000

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Im Building a (Linux) Desktop
« on: March 15, 2012, 04:32:40 AM »
Sorry, I don't know too much about hardware and it seems some people here know quite a lot, and since one the the main requirements for my pc is it must be able to play the 8/10bit mkv anime without a  problem, I thought it might be a good idea to post this here.
I dont know what all to post myself, so please tell me if I need to put down anything else.
What I have...
I have ~800$ (USD) to spend
A 3TB SATA drive (WD green http://wdc.com/en/products/products.aspx?id=120)
The Operating System (Gentoo, Ubuntu, Debian, Linux Mint, etc. I change OS frequently)
The keyboard & mouse
The TV (monitor)
A HDMI cable (which I hope to use)
the speakers. (for when I use the normal monitor)
................... .
Thats it, I don't really know what else I should get...
Please give suggestions you can think of. Thanks
slp=15;DISPLAY=:1.0 xinit -e gnome-session -- :1&sleep $slp;DISPLAY=:2.0 xinit -e startkde -- :2&sleep $slp;DISPLAY=:3.0 xinit -e startxfce4 -- :3&sleep $slp;

Offline datora

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Re: Im Building a (Linux) Desktop
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2012, 05:33:15 AM »
.
There are several linux topics in this tech forum ... I think three or so in the past year.  Strongly suggest you find & read those.  Also check the Playback Help forum.

If you click on the Search for these forums without entering anything, it will ask you if you forgot ... and there will be a powerful Advanced Search option so you can target individual forums.  I can't promise much help in the Playback Help, but I'm sure there's at least some, and possibly also in the General Help.


It seems you will be building a machine dedicated as a multimedia linux box ..?  If so, one of your first best choices is linux Mint.  Especially if you're pretty n00b-ish to linux.  So, your distro is pretty much decided.  Not a bad idea to familiarize yourself with Distro Watch if you're not aware of it already.

Onward: your budget is fairly generous.  You can do a lot with it.  If you are not interested in a game rig, you can skip Intel and go with AMD + nvidea for your CPU + GPU base hardware.  Generally, it will offer you stability and flexibility under linux while keeping your costs down, yet you can still build a monstrous powerful system.  Plan on "light" overclocking your CPU, and possibly your GPU (though, that should not be necessary).


AMD Phenom II X4 980 Black Edition Deneb 3.7GHz Socket AM3 125W Quad-Core - $150
or
AMD Phenom II X4 970 Deneb 3.5GHz Socket AM3 125W - $130

These are about to go out of production, but vastly overpowered for a multimedia box.  Copious power left over for many other tasks.  Clocks can be pushed to 4.2 and 4.5 GHZ, or lope along at ~3.8/4.0 GHz range.  Budget ~$45-$55 for substantial air-cooling block, plus another ~$30 for thermal grease and top quality fans.

Get a mobo with an AM3+ socket and you can upgrade to an 8x core in a year pretty cheap.

RAM: DDR3 1600, 8 GB is hella plenty; get a 2x 4GB kit with low timing, like CS 8 or even 7 if you can find it.  G.SKILL or Mushkin are two top performance brands that come in cost effective.

For GPU, nvidea GeForce GTX 460 with 1 GB DDR5 RAM, 256-bit data path, ~780-810 MHz base clock speed that supports Direct X 11 AND OpenGL 4.1 (or, even better, 4.2) is a good base to start from.  OpenGL will give you linux flexibility.  That "X" is important.  Probably go as low as ~$120, maybe into the ~$150 range.  It should be half a dozen times more powerful than you need, unless you have something unusual you require.  You can get crazy and look for a 480, a 560 or 580 and base clock up around ~900+ MHz ... but that won't be a "budget" card.

Mobo can be had for $140 to $190 depending.  An AM3+ socket gives you a generous upgrade path for CPU, especially if you can grab a 990FX chipset for a good price.  I managed a GIGABYTE GA-990FXA-UD3 AM3+ AMD 990FX for $140 delivered, so they're dropping in price these days.  That "X" is important.  Maybe look at the UD5, or an ASUS Sabertooth.  These are performance boards for games & overclocking; you may not need something so heavy duty.

Power supply, you should be able to get a ~620 or 650 watt green Bronze 80 for under $80, maybe even ~$50 by shopping around.  The system I just outlined doesn't really need more than ~500-550 watts ... but, a 620 watt supply ensures you will never have issues with a single video card.  650, 680 and 700 are really big overkill; 600 or 620 is already generous overkill.

Case: Lian Li.  Check options and grab a good one when it goes for ~$50 on special.  You won't regret it, unless you want something with lots of lights and shiny ... then you'll be looking in the $100-$150 range.


Disclaimer: I typed this at the speed of thought while slightly drunk and fairly sleep-deprived.  there may well be some "interesting" mistakes which I'll have to correct later ... or someone else will shortly ... but it gives you a lot of base specs and costs to begin your estimates.

Get the Deneb Black 980 and plan to run it at 4.2 GHz minimum.  You can probably run it at ~4.5-4.8 stable if you really need the extra processing power, but you shouldn't need to and 4.0/4.1 GHz will be easier on your power bill while still performing seriously.


[ EDIT: forgot to mention SSD for your main OS & app drive.  You just missed this one as a Shell Shocker for $130 delivered:

SanDisk Extreme SDSSDX-120G-G25 2.5" 120GB SATA III Internal Solid State Drive (SSD)

Study its specs.  This is the caliber drive you'd like to get for that price.  You really don't need much more than a 60 GB SATA III drive, but having a 90 GB is better, and a 120 is generous overkill.  No need for more.  Look carefully at reviews to find the more modern, much more stable 2nd & 3rd gen SSDs.  Look for MTF of 2,000,000 or more hours.  You should pay right around $1 per GB for a SATA III; anything else is a ripoff these days. ]
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 05:47:27 AM by datora »
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Online kitamesume

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Re: Im Building a (Linux) Desktop
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2012, 06:46:51 AM »
^why not an A8-3870K build? its a nice fit for the specs hes aiming for.

something like this:
[$139.99 ($15 off promo by 3/19)] AMD A8-3870K Unlocked Llano 3.0GHz Socket FM1
[$47.99]Scythe SCBSK-2100 120mm Sleeve BIG Shuriken 2 Rev. B CPU Cooler
[$74.99] ASRock A75M FM1 AMD A75
[$59.99] Kingston HyperX 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1866 Desktop Memory
[$44.99] APEX DM-317-A Media Center Slim HTPC w/ Flex 275W PSU
-------------------------------------------------------------------
[$352.95] SYSTEM TOTAL
notes: this is kind of a bland rig though since its sub-par when you compare it to intel's line up.

also intel's option:
[$179.99] Intel Core i5-2300 Sandy Bridge Quad Core 2.8GHz
[$69.99] GIGABYTE GA-H61MA-D3V
[$48.99] Kingston HyperX Blu 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 Desktop Memory
[$99.99] SAPPHIRE 100326LP Radeon HD 6670 1GB 128-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.1 x16 HDCP Ready Low Profile Video Card
[$44.99] APEX DM-317-A Media Center Slim HTPC w/ Flex 275W PSU
-------------------------------------------------------------------
[$443.95] SYSTEM TOTAL


OR a beast like this:
[$324.99 ($20 off promo by 3/19)] Intel Core i7-2600K Sandy Bridge Quad Core + HT 3.4GHz
[$69.99] GIGABYTE GA-H61MA-D3V
[$59.99] Kingston HyperX 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1866 Desktop Memory
[$159.99] ASUS HD7770-DC-1GD5 Radeon HD 7770 GHz Edition 1GB 128-bit GDDR5
[$74.99] SILVERSTONE SUGO SG02-BF Black ABS / SECC Steel MicroATX
[$44.99] CORSAIR Builder Series CX430 V2
-------------------------------------------------------------------
[$714.94] SYSTEM TOTAL
notes: its a beast, thats it.


also
+1 on the SSD, you'll pretty much need it if you want insta-boot HTPC.
incoming trinity and ivy bridge would be an even better option.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 07:59:21 AM by kitamesume »

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Online Bob2004

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Re: Im Building a (Linux) Desktop
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2012, 10:46:52 AM »
Generally, you can just follow the same advice given in the past to people building Windows systems in this forum too. Hardware support in Linux is generally very good, and most things (CPU/mobo/RAM/etc) will work the same regardless of what OS you have installed.

That said, get an Nvidia graphics card. AMD will work, but their driver support in Linux is significantly inferior to Nvidia drivers. It's improved a lot lately, since AMD finally open-sourced parts of it, but generally AMD cards are not all that reliable in Linux. Other than that point, the suggestions above are all pretty good - though I'm not up to date on current-gen GPUs so I can't suggest the best alternative to those AMD cards.

Also, I agree an SSD would be helpful if you want a fast-booting HTPC, but for a normal desktop PC, it is really not necessary. It's nice to have if you have $100 spare to spend on one, but the difference it makes to boot time is definitely not worth the cost, IMO. And it's not like Windows will run especially slow without it.

Offline kureshii

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Re: Im Building a (Linux) Desktop
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2012, 01:18:57 PM »
[...] but the difference it makes to boot time is definitely not worth the cost, IMO. And it's not like Windows will run especially slow without it.
If you’re buying an SSD for the boot times, hand over your money to someone who can better spend it for you. But if you use GIMP, Libreoffice, Inkscape, Blender, (and other slower-loading graphical interface apps) with any kind of regularity, you will definitely appreciate the much shorter app-loading times an SSD can give.

Offline criver

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Re: Im Building a (Linux) Desktop
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2012, 01:43:51 PM »
@datora: why not an AMD Phenom II x6? - I think the price is similar but the x6 is really better - example: http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu_lookup.php?cpu=AMD+Phenom+II+X6+1090T - compare with http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu_lookup.php?cpu=AMD+Phenom+II+X4+980
Though you can also take a Phenom x6 1050T (the difference between 1090T and 1050T is the clock speed) - it's cheaper and not really different than a 1090T.

I bought a PC for around 700$ - it runs pretty much everything (I can't find a game that lags because of the processor or GPU - the only reason some things lag is because NVIDIA has "really nice" PhysX drivers).
Here's my config:

CPU: AMD Phenom II x6 1090T 3.2Ghz (I think turbo mode was 3.6Ghz)
MB: GA-880GMA-USB3
RAM: 8GB whatever (don't really remember)
GPU: AMD HD6790 1GB DDR5 (I wasn't sure between this one and Nvidia GTX550Ti - http://www.hwcompare.com/9964/geforce-gtx-550-ti-vs-radeon-hd-6790/)
HDD: Western Digital 1TB SATA 3
Case: whatever

Offline datora

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Re: Im Building a (Linux) Desktop
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2012, 02:41:37 PM »
.
First off, OP needs to come back to this topic and give more detailed feedback on what he wants to do.  That is necessary to give advice beyond the basic examples already provided.


Beyond that, I suggested the AMD Deneb Black quad cores because they are vastly overpowered for the intended use of the system as I understand it.  They are exceptionally stable and will run for years at lowered energy use and temps while still crunching numbers hard.

6x and 8x core CPUs don't do much of anything extra for you right now.  Virtually no apps and very little OS support can use those extra cores.  They can barely use 4x core CPUs right now.  Yes, there is some extra power, but not really anything noticeable.  Yes, support for use of those cores is coming along.

That's why I suggested a socket that will take an 8x core a year from now.  Come April or June 2013, there will be much more support and use for 6x and 8x cores ... and the price will also drop to ridiculous levels.  The 970 & 980 I listed as examples also go on sale regularly; the 980 was available for $125 delivered at newegg last week ... seriously, for that price an unmatched deal.

There is opportunity to shave down the prices I listed once we understand better the system intended here.  A $75 mobo, for example, could well be more than enough.  A GT 430 nvidea 192-bit GPU w/ 1 GB DDR3 VRAM can be had for $30 ... I know, I just bought one about four weeks ago.  It's substantially powerful.  Do NOT get a 520; a 430 is superior.

I sketched out general system specs that will have legs, a system that will last for 5 years minimum and (with care) could last up to 10 with very useful capacity in various applications.


As far as the boot drive: DO NOT use that 3 TB WD Green drive as your system drive.  Really Bad Idea.  You do not want to use that drive to install apps or an OS on.  It is not designed for that use, it is designed as a data archive drive.  The performance is one issue, but the wear and tear on that drive will put you in danger of early failure.

Reserve it for all your data and get a small, extremely reliable drive for boot.  You could go with a Western Digital Caviar Black, like a 500 GB, as a boot drive.  Even 2x of them in RAID 0 for performance.  But the expense just isn't worth it.  Better to consider a 500, 640 or 750 GB Caviar Blue as a secondary data drive dedicated to torrenting activities & still keep the 3 TB for Archive w/ an SSD for boot/apps.

Just because I was using the term "boot drive" doesn't mean that was all that was intended.  A "boot drive" is also your main workhorse that you put your performance-gobbling apps on.  that's why I suggested a 90 GB to 120 GB.  A 120 has enough space to be a dual boot plus all you apps with room left over ... but use the 3 TB to store all your data on.  That way you can reformat/replace your "boot drive" whenever you wish and never endanger your data.

Personally, I am uncomfortable torrenting off of a WD Green drive.  They just aren't designed for constant read/write access.  I know they've improved in the last year, but there are thousands of horror stories of those things failing, and it's usually someone trying to get by on a budget and using them as boot/app drives .. which generate drive failure and 2 or 3 TB of data goes "poof."  Then the gnashing of teeth and wailing and pulling of hair begins ...

My torrenting drive, BTW, is a WD Caviar Black 750 GB in a fan-cooled external housing over a USB 2 cable.  It pushes over 2 TB of data every 30 days, 24/7 without heating or complaint.  But, all the data on that drive is archived onto other drives with the expectation that the 750 will fail at any moment.
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Online kitamesume

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Re: Im Building a (Linux) Desktop
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2012, 02:52:32 PM »
hmmm, how about intel's smart response? the one that uses SSD to cache a harddrive's read/write tasks.
you could pretty much pull it off with a tiny SSD(16-32GB).
though requires a Z68 board if i remember correctly.

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Offline datora

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Re: Im Building a (Linux) Desktop
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2012, 03:02:28 PM »
.
How simple is it to install & config under linux?  All different distros?  How stable?  It might be a good possibility, but I have little knowledge about it under a Windows environment and pretty much zero under linux.

Also, 16, 32 & 60 GB SSD are pretty stupid expensive for what you get these days.  Generally, 80 - 128 GB is the sweet spot right now for a recent generation SATA III SSD that is highly reliable & stable.  I've seen some 60 & 64 GB SSDs going for ~$1/GB, but it's rare, they are often SATA II, and they are also often more unreliable, older tech from a year a go that's getting dumped.
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Online kitamesume

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Re: Im Building a (Linux) Desktop
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2012, 03:30:05 PM »
oh yea i forgot hes prefering linux, well sadly SRT isn't supported on linux, yet.

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Offline rkruger

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Re: Im Building a (Linux) Desktop
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2012, 06:13:21 PM »
A HDMI cable (which I hope to use)
Are you gonna use that one for audio as well?
Then make sure you do some extra research on the graphics card you intend to buy, to see if there is actually support to route the audio to that port under Linux.

Offline firefish5000

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Re: Im Building a (Linux) Desktop
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2012, 06:55:03 PM »
Sorry about the late response, I fell asleep tired and confused reading the history of speakers (not what I was aiming to learn, but thats all I found)
Now bear with me here...
So I will 3TB hard drive as storage, mount in my home folder as Anime.(Anime/Music/Manga)
I should probably get the SSD because I dont have another Drive.

The computer will be used for various task, I will be using blender but not for much, the most I can do with it is make the balloons as done in the tutorial.
I will probably host a small web server on it, but only I would visit the site. I will be using KDE as much as possible. LinuxMint will be one of my primary OS (gentoo may be as well, I have yet to try it, made a mistake installing GRUB2 last time and could not boot)
It will be used for listening to listen to  audio watching anime reading manga perhaps as a proxy(also for myself) and ssh server. I really dont have much of a plan for it truly though, I came to linux on impulse when I got fed up with all the free trials addware and timebombs on windows.
I will be torrenting a lot, I stopped all my torrents when my laptop fried but thy are on the 3TB so im safe.
I do a lot of encryption but I dont need anything to speed it up, I just have uncommon and unimportant account passwords on the file, I memorize as much as I can but if its used once a year I am bound to forget the password. (I encrypt for fun and privacy, though no real use)
Quote
if you use GIMP, Libreoffice, Inkscape, Blender, (and other slower-loading graphical interface apps) with any kind of regularity, you will definitely appreciate the much shorter app-loading times an SSD can give.
Yes, I use them often enough, gimp is used at least twice a week, and its used all throughout the day when I use it.
Oh, and I am still fairly new to linux, I have been sticking to Mint and other Debian/Ubuntu based distros. But I have come to a point where I can do the basics, and almost install gentoo (I cant get grub2, had I tried grub it would have been fine, probably not the best thing for me to have changed.)
Thanks for everything you'v told me and sugested, I am truely clueless about hardware, I know how to use it but thats it.
slp=15;DISPLAY=:1.0 xinit -e gnome-session -- :1&sleep $slp;DISPLAY=:2.0 xinit -e startkde -- :2&sleep $slp;DISPLAY=:3.0 xinit -e startxfce4 -- :3&sleep $slp;

Online kitamesume

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Re: Im Building a (Linux) Desktop
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2012, 08:57:27 PM »
^ok then

torrents = lower power the better so = intel build
some program crunching = beefy CPU so = at least a quad
i dont see games on the list so = GT430 is enough
lots of file access = SSD indeed

so... i vote my i5-2300 build lololol, just drop the GPU for a GT430, make sure its a low-profile one.

something like this:
also intel's option:
[$179.99] Intel Core i5-2300 Sandy Bridge Quad Core 2.8GHz
[$69.99] GIGABYTE GA-H61MA-D3V
[$48.99] Kingston HyperX Blu 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 Desktop Memory
[$55.99] ASUS ENGT430/DI/1GD3/MG(LP) GeForce GT 430 (Fermi) 1GB 64-bit DDR3
[$44.99] APEX DM-317-A Media Center Slim HTPC w/ Flex 275W PSU
-------------------------------------------------------------------
[$399.95] SYSTEM TOTAL
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 09:02:06 PM by kitamesume »

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Offline datora

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Re: Im Building a (Linux) Desktop
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2012, 12:13:00 AM »
.
Remember to watch your shipping costs when planning your budget.  I always make estimates with delivery included, and aggressively shop for free delivery items.  It can add up, being $40-$60 you can save and invest into better equipment or an extra item or two to support your system.  How about a "free" 32 GB USB 3 flash drive instead of throwing $$$ away on shipping?

Also, since you like playing with different distros, you can buy three or four 8GB flash drives and install distros on them, then switch between them as your multiboot option.  I got three of these for $6.99 each delivered on special:

Patriot Xporter Mini 8GB Flash Drive (USB2.0 Portable)

or another possibility:

Patriot Axle 32GB USB 2.0 Flash Drive - $24 delivered, or $17 w. rebate.

Personally, I'd probably not get a flash drive larger than 16 GB that is USB 2 due to it's speed issues, but if it's cheap enough ... a useful toy for data transport &/or mutli-OS boot options.


Video cards:

Galaxy 43GGS8HX3SPZ GeForce GT 430 (Fermi) 1GB 128-bit DDR3 = $55 delivered, also $34.99 after mail-in rebate card; it's nearly identical to the card I got.

Can you trust the rebate ..?  Maybe.  I'm still waiting on mine, but Galaxy has confirmed the card is 1) registered w/ Galaxy for full 3-year warranty and 2) rebate is accepted & being processed.  Notice that's two separate activities.

I've researched this card and there are many happy customers across the Interwebz.  It also apparently overclocks decently, cool & stable.  Galaxy is a strong name with solid reliability.  In addition to the OpenGL 4.1 spec, by using the latest nvidea drivers it is OpenGL 4.2 compliant, a nice bonus for future-proofing against apps in the coming years.

If you feel a need for something much higher end:

MSI N550GTX-Ti Cyclone OC GeForce GTX 550 Ti (Fermi) 1GB 192-bit GDDR5 PCI - $130, or $110 if the rebate comes through.  MSI is pretty reputable, so a decent bet.  This is just a demonstration of specifications of a crazy-overpowered card for what you intend, if you want to throw a little extra money at it and try to use that extra power.  Such as a VM and play some games.  I really don't see you have a need for that kind of power now, but two years from now it might come in handy.



Memory goes on sale a lot, so shop carefully and you can get a pretty rock-bottom price.  Examples:

PNY Optima 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10666) Desktop for $35 delivered.  1333 is slightly slow, but not bad, and PNY is a pretty solid name in memory.  I've been using their brand for nearly 15 years.

for a little more:

G.SKILL Ripjaws X Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1866 (PC3 14900) Desktop - $50 delivered.  1866 would be really nice to have if you're going to play with overclocking at all.  I've seen the similar product from G.SKILL for 1600 going for $40, which is probably the best compromise.  I have 2x 4GB kit of their Sniper line which handles aggressive memory timings:

G.SKILL Sniper 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Desktop - currently $48 delivered, got mine for $40, I've seen it on special for $35.

Do you need 1600 or 1833?  No.  But, two years down the road it may have extra flexibility.  If you can get it for these low prices, do it.  Especially if you get an SSD, having memory on the faster side, like if you can get its CAS down to 7, can keep your system performance near it's peak edge instead of bottlenecking.


At this point your real decision tree is going Intel or AMD.  It determines your mobo & your CPU.  Generally they both play about the same under Windows & linux, although historically AMD boards had a mild edge for linux support.  Intel platforms have generally been tweaked to perform their best as windows gaming platforms, while AMD chipsets have been more general-use.  These days there's so much surplus computing power that these differences aren't a factor to speak of anymore.

I would be very curious to see a head-to-head match between an i5-2300 running at 2.8/3.0 GHz vs. the Deneb 980 running at ~4.0 GHz.  The AMD would consume a bit more electricity, but I think the raw computing power would be equivalent.  Again, speaking to benchmarks for general apps vs. tweaked toward game systems.

If you're going for a budget mobo, make sure you carefully evaluate the expansion slots you need & want.  The boards I suggested earlier have substantial capacity for expansion and tweaking your CPU & memory clocks.  Cheaper boards shed those options rapidly.  Intel platforms in particular limit overclocking options ... so decide if that is important to you and look into it to make sure have them if you want them.


Power supplies:

The APEX PSU that kitamesume suggested, @275 Watts, is very anemic.  It should be enough, but your margin is pretty thin on that.  For $45, you can do a lot better and pick up something at least 350-400 watts, which is the minimum I'd go, and you should be able to get one of those for ~$35.  The GT 430 video cards recommend a minimum 300 W PSU, for example.  If you wanted to add one or two drives and use a larger video card (such as a GTX 460 or 550), you'd definitely want over 400 watts, like 420-450ish.  I'd feel most comfortable with 500 or 550 for three mechanical drives plus a major vid card.

Regardless, you probably can get a 300-350 for ~$30, a 500-550 for ~$45-$50.  I got a great Antec green model with a Bronze 80 cert, 620 watts for $40 after rebate (yes, it did come through).  That PSU was spec'd to drive an aggressively overclocked Deneb 960 Quad core over 4.0 GHz, and that sniper 1600 memory up over 1800 plus a ZOTAC GeForce GTX 460 (Fermi) 1GB 256-bit GDDR5 card ... and five mechanical drives, 2x WD Caviar Black 750 GB  and 3x Samsung 2TB.  Still has power enough left over for a second video card of that spec.


This is the DVD burner you want:

ASUS 24X DVD Burner - it goes on sale for $18 delivered pretty regularly.  Just watch for it to come around about every three or four weeks.
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Offline firefish5000

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Re: Im Building a (Linux) Desktop
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2012, 05:51:22 AM »
Im getting a bit confused so I attempted to organize my thoughts.
Table of Thoughts a google spreadsheet where I attempted to come to some sort of understanding.
Table of Thoughts Uneditable version
Note that they are not complete and I think I am missing several post and parts(No power yet)
Also I need to get the prices on another sheet.

I am forgetting something....
slp=15;DISPLAY=:1.0 xinit -e gnome-session -- :1&sleep $slp;DISPLAY=:2.0 xinit -e startkde -- :2&sleep $slp;DISPLAY=:3.0 xinit -e startxfce4 -- :3&sleep $slp;

Online kitamesume

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Re: Im Building a (Linux) Desktop
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2012, 09:29:00 AM »
^ corrections to your spreadsheet.

the "should be a low-profile one" is because the case im refering to is a slim case that can only hold low profile GPUs.
the HD7770 is a whole tier faster than GTX 550 Ti, GTX 550 Ti's equivalent is HD7750.
intel's processor is undoubtedly more energy efficient than AMD's phenom line and a huge margin at that and since you're eying to use it for torrents as well you'd might want to have a more energy efficient rig.

the 275watt PSU will hold, according to recent approximations:
the intel's i5-2300 barely uses 100watts
the GT430 hardly even uses 50watts
most chipset/motherboard consumes hardly 25watts
rams doesn't really consume more than 2watts per stick
HDD consumes about 10-25watts each drive, green drives consumes 10watts while performance drives reaches 25watts, except raptors which uses way more.
do note that SSDs uses well below 10watts.
recent modeled optical disk drives(cd/dvd reader) uses around 25watts as well.

means to say if you had:
i5-2300(100w)
GT430(50w)
mobo(25w)
2x ram(4w)
3x green hdd(30w) } total of 4HDDs
perf hdd(25w)       }
ssd(10w)
odd(25w)
they sum to about 269w power consumption, and this is IF they were all running all at once and running at 100% of their usages.

notes: i rounded them to a higher value to compensate for their peak power usage so that means it shouldn't even be using this much power when running it normally.
the case with the 275watts PSU uses a flex PSU which means finding a replacement is out of the question.

fixed the list to include the SSD and an ODD, also changing the refereed case to something that can accept an ATX psu:
also intel's option:
[CPU] - [$179.99] Intel Core i5-2300 Sandy Bridge Quad Core 2.8GHz
[Mobo] - [$69.99] GIGABYTE GA-H61MA-D3V
[RAM] - [$48.99] Kingston HyperX Blu 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 Desktop Memory
[GPU] - [$55.99] ASUS ENGT430/DI/1GD3/MG(LP) GeForce GT 430 (Fermi) 1GB 64-bit DDR3
[CASE] - [$88.99] SILVERSTONE GRANDIA GD04B Micro ATX Media Center / HTPC Case
[PSU] - [$44.99] CORSAIR Builder Series CX430 V2
[SSD] - [$129.99]Mushkin Enhanced Chronos MKNSSDCR120GB 2.5" 120GB SATA III MLC(SSD)
[ODD] - [$20.99]ASUS 24X DVD Burner
-------------------------------------------------------------------
[$639.92] SYSTEM TOTAL

notes:
i liked the reviews from mushkin SSDs, a full egg in the overall review.
some of them have rebates, but i don't really trust them.
why do i suggest HTPC cases? well i'm not really saying you should get an HTPC case, rather i'm saying that you should get a case that is space efficient.
oh and the case can now hold a full size GPU, so no need to get low-profile ones.
HD7770 and HD7750 is insanely efficient ( HD7750[55watts!?] = GTX 550 Ti[116watts] || HD7770[80watts!?] = HD6850[127watts] ) so how did they do it? AMD transitioned their GPUs from 40nm fabrication process to 28nm, making the die size shrink and of course a side effect of needing less energy for transistors to operate because they're more closer to each other.
shipping cost is excluded from the list, expect the final price to rise.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 09:35:49 AM by kitamesume »

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Offline datora

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Re: Im Building a (Linux) Desktop
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2012, 03:35:26 PM »
.
@firefish5000 - what size case do you have in mind?

I went with simplicity and flexibility, a mid-tower that will hold a full ATX motherboard (which you may not need).  It will have lots of room inside to work, and for airflow to ensure cooling is not an issue.  Cable management is easier, and you can add in extra hard drives and other stuff.

The compromise is size.  If you want something compact, such as what kitamesume is suggesting, you have to pay attention to video card size (it will need to be low-profile), adding in a CPU cooler, etc.

Are you building this rig to build-once and forget?  Or, do you intend to tweak and mod and change hardware around?  If you get in and out of the case several times a year, even just for basic cleaning, having room to see & for your hands to get in may well be worth the mid-tower.  Do you have space/desire for a tower-style, or do you want/need it compact?


Some decisions:

 • Big decision on case size, as it will determine some of your components.

 • Do you want to play with overclocking?  That affects your options at this point.  It also affects cooling, both in care of build and fan options.  Heat fins on your memory and the size of your CPU cooling block will require a case that has room.

 • You have not indicated to use if silence is a high priority, &/or if high/extreme energy efficiency is important.

 • No discussion of audio has taken place, although most modern systems have excellent audio chipsets.

 • USB 3 and SATA III have been assumed, but watch out for motherboards that don't have those if you're looking at budget boards on special.  If you don't need/want a high-performance system, there's no reason why you can't stick with SATA II & USB 2


Video cards:

You indicated this is a linux rig, and you indicated you will experiment with the distro, probably often.

nvidea chipset ... nvidea has the best support under linux, and has for many, many years; they've embraced & supported open source for a long time & have lots of experience with it.  It's about as close to plug and play as you're going to get under linux distros.  The other cards are tweaked for Windows/game performance; their support under linux can often be spotty and can lead to anything from "only" frustration to incompatibility of features.

The Galaxy GT 430 card I listed earlier is slightly superior performance to the Asus card for the same price.  That 128-bti data path vs. 64-bit data path is quite significant.  My old AGP 8x nvidea 7800 chipset card by PNY is 64-bit, now over 5 years old (and, BTW, still has performance to spare).  However, if you need a low-profile card then you have to get the Asus, or keep looking.

Don't neglect the memory recommendations I posted earlier.  There was just a memory topic in this forum within the last month or so ... a good read with good resources.


In summary, I really respect kitamesume's experience and knowledge, but I cannot condone a design that might peak at approximately 250 watts power and put in a 275 PSU.  Bumping it up is virtually a requirement, especially for a n00b to building.  Also keeping in mind you're a learning builder, every suggestion I made kept in mind simplicity, such as components that are easy to replace, either due to failure or future upgrade ... thus, no unique components such as a "non-replaceable" PSU.

I see a 430 is now listed, and that is far more sane.  Usually, if I even bother to calculate power use, I make sure the PSU has at least 100W more power than peak ... so a 350 in this situation would be a minimum.  By going 400 and over, you are future-proofing for added hard drives, maybe adding in a second burner, like a blu-ray, jumping to a better CPU, upgrading video card, etc.

While I have avoided Intel personally, the suggestion for an i5-2300 based rig is a good one.  You gain quite a bit of performance and energy efficiency for the extra money.  I already pointed out the raw difference in GHZ the chips could potentially run at, but I can't answer the question about which would perform better at the clock settings.  I think it'll be pretty close to a wash on performance, with the Intel running cooler and using less electricity.


Another expense:

Make sure to install proper surge protection and a Uninterruptable Power Supply (UPS) battery back-up.  A good surge protector should handle over 4000 Joules and run ~$20.  Depending on the system you end up building, on the low end you can get a basic UPS of 350 volt-amps or up to a 550, 650 or 750 for more power hungry system.  I have several 550 and 750 supplies that run all my critical components (external hard drives, for example), which ran me $45 and $50 each respectively on sale..

The battery supply is not primarily to run your system during a power outage.  It is to make sure the power feed to your system is very clean and stable.  Minor variations in your electricity can wear your components, such as your mechanical hard drive, and shorten their life.

You can survive brief power surges and drops/outages of a few seconds.  If your power fails without warning, you also get 5 to 15 minutes to shut your system down gracefully.  APC, as one brand, is very solid and has linux compatibility to connect by USB cable and auto-shutdown if you're not home.  They're great for charging cell phones and running laptops during power outages, for other useful examples.

My 750 supplies also power/surge protect my local network & internet: wireless router, switches, FiOS connection.  I get about half a day of internet capability on my Android during a complete power out off one 750 ... and I have three of them plus a couple 550s.  Where I live, storms have taken my power out for three to seven days about five times in the last two years.  These have been good insurance for the last year.  Before that I lost well over a terabyte of hard drives with irreplaceable, critical data.

Something to think about and budget for as time moves along.
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Offline firefish5000

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Re: Im Building a (Linux) Desktop
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2012, 10:06:13 PM »
I usually clean the all of my computers about once every 2 months. Generally I go into them for something else but clean them while I am at it.
So space from a tower is probably necessary.
Over-clocking will probably be done
Silence is not important, no matter how loud it is or what sound it makes, I would just get use to it.(plus one of my other computers has a very loud fan and until recently the dvd drive always made this odd loud sound, laser fell off the rail)
The discussion of audio, i dont know what to say...
Yes, my distro rarely stays the same for more than a month, I have so many options I decided I should try to try them all.

I have never purchased nor built a computer before, so I dont even have the experience of having a guy from best buy tell me all the specs of each computer and the luxury of asking him questions.(...I should do that) and am a very big n00b.
The Power supply... I suppose it would be a good idea to have a good bit extra so I can add to it. I probably will get a second burner and add or change something in the future, I dont know what but I best plan ahead.
nvidea chipset, I figured. I thought it was odd that my laptop had a nvidea program with all the same basic features as it did under windows the moment I switched to linux.
Also, a UPS is definitely something I am looking into, recently the power has been going out for about 5+ seconds(sometimes for a good hour) at random times, it hasen't seemed stable since the last storm.(I have no clue whats wrong, but all neighborhoods surrounding us also keep loosing power)the lights will also randomly dim and then brighten back up and the tv turns itself off (not in a haunted house, though I wonder about the tv), I think I am in an environment where a ups is necessary.(Just to clarify, i am serious. I feel like the electricity is ridding a mad roller coaster, though i am getting better at keeping track of time without clocks) I do wonder though, would it be a bad idea to hook the ups to a generator for when the power is out? (we have one, it's not a fancy one that turns itself on during power outages but its powerful enough to run the computers and a refrigerators at least)
« Last Edit: March 17, 2012, 02:37:24 AM by firefish5000 »
slp=15;DISPLAY=:1.0 xinit -e gnome-session -- :1&sleep $slp;DISPLAY=:2.0 xinit -e startkde -- :2&sleep $slp;DISPLAY=:3.0 xinit -e startxfce4 -- :3&sleep $slp;

Offline vuzedome

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Re: Im Building a (Linux) Desktop
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2012, 03:03:05 AM »
Man, you guys turn a simple Linux based build into a beginners nightmare.
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Offline datora

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Re: Im Building a (Linux) Desktop
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2012, 03:51:01 AM »
.
When you get to the actual assembly, search youtube for videos.  Newegg has a channel with several that are lucid and chock-full of good advice and procedure.  Those are good to start with, and then you'll have developed knowledge & vocabulary to search for more and filter through who is full of BS and who has a clue.  There are hundreds and thousands of how-to videos once you start searching, but once you've seen about the first five you'll be halfway to expert.

In particular, the newegg videos demonstrate how to test your initial boot with mobo outside of the case, just so you know all that stuff works before you take the time to install it.

My advice has always been to use a mid-tower or tower case for ease of access and expansion and cooling capacity.  After a year or two of playing inside a large case, you'll be better prepared to work in smaller cases & laptops.


As far as a bluray burner goes, this one:

ASUS Black 12X BD-R SATA Blu-ray Burner BW-12B1ST

has pretty decent reviews.  I see it go on special, including rebate, down to ~$55 every few weeks or so.  I can't speak to it specifically, other than the ASUS DVD burner I recommended earlier has served me well for years.  I've had about a half dozen of them personally in various systems and they've all bee rock solid; ripped thousands of CDs and hundreds of DVDs with them without issue.


If you are serious about playing with overclocking, one of your best and first resources: http://www.overclock.net/f/ forums.  Again, you'll gain the vocabulary necessary for searches and find dozens of critical links to all the information & resources you could ever want.  In fact, when you are evaluating a CPU & mobo (& RAM & GPU) for purchase, you can usually find them in those forums with many comments about how good or bad an idea they are for any overclocking or how much is reasonable to expect.  I've never needed to post a question there ... just keep searching and following links and have taken care of all my questions.


One dust trick I use on my systems: all my intake fans have a small frame/"cage" built from miscellaneous supplies (copper wire, gutter mesh, etc.) over which I stretch various materials such as gauze or fine mesh; whatever's at hand.  This traps the majority of dust and cat hair & such before it ever enters the case.  Really cuts down on wear & tear on the electronics.  I also use natural bristle brushes .... without any metal parts, all wood & plastic .... to help clean sensitive electronics of fine dust build up, etc.  Part of my tool kit.  Make sure you are always grounded, of course.


I don't have experiences with a generator.  Probably the safest strategy, in my imagination, would be to run my systems off the UPS.  If power goes out, shut systems down gracefully.  If I really needed my systems during an extended outage, I would get the generator running & stable electric into the house, then connect the UPS up and boot systems.  Might take a few extra minutes of my time, but during a power outage I have other duties to perform & wouldn't want distractions about my computer being on until everything else is stable & calmed down.  If I'm offline for 20 or 45 minutes, the world is not going to end.  Don't let yourself get sucked into a false sense of urgency if your equipment is of value to you.


As far as you other answers, you know what you need to do now.  You have additional flexibility going with large case.  Looking for fans, you can target quality fans with a low decibel rating, like 22-24 dBa or lower, maybe even down to ~16-18.  This is whisper quiet.  You can add two fans at this rating with CFM (cubic foot per minute) airflow of ~60-70, or even 55.  Do this instead of a single fan at 78 or 85 CFM.  Fans blowing air in from two or four directions can target specific hot spots, such as CPU, GPU, memory bank.

Look for a PSU that has two fans.  Under 500 watts, not a big issue and probably unlikely, but if it has that configuration it helps exhaust your case more efficiently, assuming the intake is inside your case instead of pulling cooling air from outside.


Y'know ...

Man, you guys turn a simple Linux based build into a beginners nightmare.

I'm not seeing that.  A nightmare, by my definition, is wandering through the wilderness without without guide or lucid examples.  Been there done that  wrote the book & produced the film on it.

I've been building, refurbishing and maintenancing PCs since the early/mid-1980s, and taught Computer Science in a State university for 6 years.  I do have some concept of leading a complete n00b through the various options and decision trees required to get them on their feet, getting them to build a working model in their head of what they are attempting and plan out the project moving forward.

This topic is now an exceptional resource for any newbie who has little idea where to begin.  I truly fail to see how collecting all the basic information needed into one topic that can be read in 30 minutes constitutes a "nightmare."  ::)
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