Author Topic: Ghost Love? (Read 2513 times)

Soryon · « **Reply #40 on:** March 30, 2012, 02:59:17 AM »

I just want to know why all these spirits get so darn camera shy when an impartial witness, like a camera, is introduced into the equation. I mean, the events always tend to seem like this "spirit" is seeking attention, right? You would think they would be all over cameras and new visitors, not just the ones who want to see them but can never prove it.

As for things moving on their own... Well, my car keys and remotes always seem to get up and walk away, too.

Interesting side note- If a friend of mine asked me to come over because he thought a ghost was moving stuff in his house, I would take every opportunity to move things around just ever so slightly any time he was not looking. Then of course I would play along with it.

elvikun · « **Reply #41 on:** March 30, 2012, 03:04:50 AM »

Well, of course, there always are the extreme and somewhat morbid explanations not related to suggestion. Mind can play tricks on itself.

As an example, there many documented cases where people actually go shopping, have conversations or clean the house without having any knowledge of it whatsoever afterwards or believing it was a drem. Moving few things around the room would not be such a big deal. Or... what Soryon said.

And for seeing ghosts ... Well, I seem to recall few cases where people saw ghosts clearly, not only in dark creepy rooms, and at the end it turned out to be be effect of chemicals or a tumor touching their optic nerves.

But frankly, my opinion is what I said before. I do not think all people who see ghosts or aliens lie. Not on purpose. They do believe they saw and experienced it. Yet it all was a scenario played in their mind be it a vivid daydream or a hallucination. That is why all the supernatural beings are never seen on pictures or recordings.

Raylightsa3 · « **Reply #42 on:** March 30, 2012, 03:05:51 AM »

Quote from: Soryon on March 30, 2012, 02:59:17 AM

I just want to know why all these spirits get so darn camera shy when an impartial witness, like a camera, is introduced into the equation. I mean, the events always tend to seem like this "spirit" is seeking attention, right? You would think they would be all over cameras and new visitors, not just the ones who want to see them but can never prove it.

As for things moving on their own... Well, my car keys and remotes always seem to get up and walk away, too.
Interesting side note- If a friend of mine asked me to come over because he thought a ghost was moving stuff in his house, I would take every opportunity to move things around just ever so slightly any time he was not looking. Then of course I would play along with it.

lol thats hilarious

Raylightsa3 · « **Reply #43 on:** March 30, 2012, 03:08:55 AM »

Quote from: elvikun on March 30, 2012, 03:04:50 AM

Well, of course, there always are the extreme and somewhat morbid explanations not related to suggestion. Mind can play tricks on itself.

As an example, there many documented cases where people actually go shopping, have conversations or clean the house without having any knowledge of it whatsoever afterwards or believing it was a drem. Moving few things around the room would not be such a big deal.

And for seeing ghosts ... Well, I seem to recall few cases where people saw ghosts clearly, not only in dark creepy rooms, and at the end it turned out to be be effect of chemicals or a tumor touching their optic nerves. Or... what Soryon said.

But frankly, my opinion is what I said before. I do not think all people who see ghosts or aliens lie. Not on purpose. They do believe they saw and experienced it. Yet it all was a scenario played in their mind be it a vivid daydream or a hallucination.

yes thats all very true but i think there are some things were just not supposed to understand in this world and hey that makes life fun trying to find out

elvikun · « **Reply #44 on:** March 30, 2012, 03:22:54 AM »

That's truth, but as far as I'm concerned, just because we can't explain something clearly at the moment is no reason to turn to the supernatural or gods. It is turning from hard to prove to something which can never be proved. And while I can hardly explain and prove how the universe came to be, everyone can do a bit of research on weird stuff they encounter... Things are often not so complicater and fantastic, once you stop believing without a question and doubt what you see and hear.

There was a time where people looked upon lightning, could not explain what it is and believed it must be the rage of gods. Nowdays? We can tell exactly what, how, when and why.

Or, not too long ago, people saw aurora in the sky and believed it is the end of days - the sky is cracking or that it is "angel dust". And today? Still beutiful, yet very much explained.

Goldfrapp · « **Reply #45 on:** March 30, 2012, 07:12:57 AM »

Stop doing drugs:P

metro. · « **Reply #46 on:** March 30, 2012, 07:19:03 AM »

She's just there to tell you to stop having so much angst.

Meomix · « **Reply #47 on:** March 30, 2012, 07:41:17 AM »

Dude you are going to need to post webcam evidence, too easy is it for someone to post a sprooked up story for attention.

1. Bakabt username on webcam

2. Overtime recording of room

Ixarku · « **Reply #48 on:** March 30, 2012, 09:51:40 AM »

Quote from: elvikun on March 30, 2012, 02:28:55 AM

What I meant is that you can make yourself (even not on puprpose) believe you see something, even tho in fact, you did not. You will trully believe you saw it, but in fact, it was just your brain playing pranks on you.

Yeah, I think you summed it up pretty well in this and other posts. This is exactly why I'm skeptical about religion, alien encounters, ghosts, and anything else supernatural. People are all too ready to believe the wildest reason something could happen without first seriously considering all of the mundane reasons. For the ghost discussion, this is why I like seeing video evidence of objects moving by themselves. Even though that stuff can be faked, if you could somehow be sure that it isn't, it would be pretty compelling that something unusual is happening. UFO pictures & video, though, I don't trust at all, and probably won't ever until the day a spaceship lands on the White House lawn. It's way too easy for people to misinterpret a few lights in the sky.

And anyone remember the buzz around 'rods' a few years ago? That one made me laugh my ass off. Amateur filmmakers would film stuff with their handicams, and would pick up these strange elongated rods flying around on the video that weren't visible to the naked eye. It turned into 'OMG, it's some kind of unknown lifeform!" No, jackass, it's distortion / out-of-focus visual effects on insects buzzing around on-frame while you're filming.

So I think some supernatural things could be possible, but I'd have to personally experience something that leaves almost all doubt behind before I'd believe it's real. Even then, I'd still be skeptical of my own perceptions and would have to consider the circumstances carefully.

elvikun · « **Reply #49 on:** March 30, 2012, 11:38:13 AM »

@Ixarku

Well, mind can be cruel.
It's always good to look at the extreme cases - There are people who believe they are dirty so much that they start skinning themselves alive to clean it up. Are they lying? I doubt that, you don't go around tearing your sking of with your bare hands just to make a hoax look more real. Yet there is not dirt anywhere, even tho they see and feel it.
In similar way, someone believing in god so fircely, that they start seeing and hearing him/her/it. Again, in some of the cases, I don't think they are lying. They really have meetings with god. In their mind.
So yes, your mind can make things which aren't there seem very much real.

In the ghost cases, the obvious hoaxes aside, it's no coincidence that people who see ghosts are almost exclusively people who even previously believed there is more in this world than meets the eye.

If I kept seeing a ghost like being, I would still continue with "There is no ghost" line of though, at least untill I would be able to discard all reasonable explanations and got a CT of my brain.

Nikkoru · « **Reply #50 on:** March 30, 2012, 11:51:26 AM »

I don't think television has hit a lower point than Ghost Hunters, and Crossing Over with John Edward. I understand the stupid thrill some people get when drunk on creepy atmosphere; A shaking camera in night vision mode, panicked voices, background music fit for Silent Hill, and a long and creative "history" to set up the whole titillation. Still, the whole Ghosthunters experience could be replicated by grade school students with cellphone cameras and proper editing. John Edward simply made a small fortune off of cold-reading people, and other fraudulent parlour tricks. Which is, in retrospect, actually an amazing talent. Though not moral talent, and obnoxiously distasteful once you realize he's preying on people's willingness to delude themselves in fervent hope that they may seek absolution from the dead.

The underlying mythology of the ghost is just pathetic. Unlike alien encounters or religious mythologies - with aliens the conclusion you can draw is that we're not alone in the universe and something is interested in us. That makes us special, and the universe more interesting. Religions put the universe into an essentially just framework of predictability. Even if bad things happen, so long as you follow the major social mores of your society you'll be comforted and rewarded even if you should die. With ghost, what is there? Some good fodder for fiction, certainly. Perhaps the titillation and adrenaline-fuelled joy of shrieking in terror knowing full well that you're perfectly safe like in haunted houses and scary movies. But the thought of people, or some part of us that exists after death, just floating about aimlessly for all eternity is... deeply distasteful When the universe dissolves into entropy, do they just exists there in blackness for eternity? At least religions promise liquor, women, and carousing with other valiant dead. Or some variation on that theme.

mrdkreka · « **Reply #51 on:** March 30, 2012, 12:34:29 PM »

"Believe nothing of what you hear, and only half of what you see" Edgar Allan Poe

Seeing things that doesn't exist often means you are schizophrenia or suffer from angst.

The chance for alien to exist are 1:1-∞ (or more precise, 1: the expanding speed of the universe), however the odds that they are viewable by our eyes are 1:1-∞.

I believe that you believe you are seeing ghost, but it is nothing more than just an illusion.

Meomix · « **Reply #52 on:** March 30, 2012, 02:42:11 PM »

Mah, bring some friends or enthusiasts over for the weekend to confirm your suspicions on unexplained phenomena.

Raylightsa3 · « **Reply #53 on:** March 30, 2012, 04:51:21 PM »

Ill probably do that sometime until then ill just enjoy the company

Ixarku · « **Reply #54 on:** March 30, 2012, 08:09:13 PM »

Quote from: Nikkoru on March 30, 2012, 11:51:26 AM

But the thought of people, or some part of us that exists after death, just floating about aimlessly for all eternity is... deeply distasteful When the universe dissolves into entropy, do they just exists there in blackness for eternity? At least religions promise liquor, women, and carousing with other valiant dead. Or some variation on that theme.

Personally, I find the concept of disembodied spirits more believable and less distasteful than the afterlife envisioned by the more popular Bible-based religions, largely because I think most religions are too egocentric to be trustworthy. I think I've mentioned before, I have a deep distrust of most things human since perceptions are so subjective in nature, and the majority of religions have roots in times & beliefs that predate a lot of modern scientific knowledge.

Beyond the mundane explanations for 'ghosts', of course, I don't draw any conclusions about what 'ghosts' might be, or what sort of post-death existence there is or could be. In the end, all we have to go by is what our perceptions tell us and what science can unravel (and, for the 'faithful', whatever stories they happen to believe for whatever reasons). I label myself as an atheist because I don't believe in the mainstream anthropomorphic version of God, but I don't explicitly exclude the possibility of other realms of existence or consciousness.

The one thing that does deeply disturb me, though, not to go too far off-topic, is the idea of 'downloading' a human mind into a computer. Are we really just the sum of our physical chemistry, or does the self actually have an intangible component (ie, a soul)? And, assuming sufficient technical prowess, can our consciousnesses really be scientifically separated from our meat body and stuck into an exclusively electronic shell? Would you still be you, or would that electronic version just be a copy? If our science ever gets to that point, I wonder if we'll unravel the nature of mortality as a step along the way to scientific immortality, or if gaining the knowledge will be a consequence of that technology.

elvikun · « **Reply #55 on:** March 31, 2012, 10:45:42 AM »

You know, the copy question - If a copy is the exactly same as the original in every turn imaginable... Is it really inferior or a copy for that matter and how do you know whether it is a copy or the original, in this case, considering the original gets "destroyed" during the transfer? As long as there is no difference between the copy and original and the copy believes to be the original, while the "original" does not exist anymore, doesn't that make the copy into an original? My, I think It just got complicated a bit right there.
I would say "downloading" mind could be possible one day and not a bad thing either. After all, human body isn't much more than a well made mashine - why not transfer the programming into another one? As long as you don't believe in souls, which are presumably tied to body, not mind.

megido-rev.M · « **Reply #56 on:** March 31, 2012, 06:02:32 PM »

Quote from: elvikun on March 31, 2012, 10:45:42 AM

(click to show/hide)
You know, the copy question - If a copy is the exactly same as the original in every turn imaginable... Is it really inferior or a copy for that matter and how do you know whether it is a copy or the original, in this case, considering the original gets "destroyed" during the transfer? As long as there is no difference between the copy and original and the copy believes to be the original, while the "original" does not exist anymore, doesn't that make the copy into an original? My, I think It just got complicated a bit right there.
I would say "downloading" mind could be possible one day and not a bad thing either. After all, human body isn't much more than a well made mashine - why not transfer the programming into another one? As long as you don't believe in souls, which are presumably tied to body, not mind.

The existentialism part, not much I can add without starting some kind of loop.
Transferring the programming though, I figure there would be tons of 'hardcoded paths' to deal with that might refer to the body.

elvikun · « **Reply #57 on:** March 31, 2012, 06:36:00 PM »

Well. I said one day. And that day is certainly not close and that is considering it will ever come. But technically, brain is just extremely complex chemical base computer and I imagine if you could strip the parts related to controll of body, it could be possible to transfer to another "hardware" be it coputer or another brain.

Of course, it's all just a dream, I'm just saying that I wouldn't have a problem with it, if such a thing was possible.

megido-rev.M · « **Reply #58 on:** March 31, 2012, 07:39:52 PM »

Oh, I think it's alright to dream the idea. If technological advancement were to reach that point, I imagine there would be many other (good) breakthroughs in all related areas for it, whatever those might be. I don't find problems with that.

Raylightsa3 · « **Reply #59 on:** March 31, 2012, 07:51:59 PM »

I had a dream and well

she said she can finally move on cause she now knows that she was able to be loved. she is no longer here so im a bit sad but im glad she was happy