Author Topic: Human mind into a computer  (Read 838 times)

Offline megido-rev.M

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Human mind into a computer
« on: March 31, 2012, 02:18:45 AM »
I was going to reply in the "Ghost Love?" thread, but I thought I might as well create this thread instead.

The one thing that does deeply disturb me, though, not to go too far off-topic, is the idea of 'downloading' a human mind into a computer.  Are we really just the sum of our physical chemistry, or does the self actually have an intangible component (ie, a soul)?  And, assuming sufficient technical prowess, can our consciousnesses really be scientifically separated from our meat body and stuck into an exclusively electronic shell?  Would you still be you, or would that electronic version just be a copy?  If our science ever gets to that point, I wonder if we'll unravel the nature of mortality as a step along the way to scientific immortality, or if gaining the knowledge will be a consequence of that technology.

As it stands before me, such an idea is purely of science fiction. A mind would be physical assuming it is the result of a [functioning] brain (or, loosely speaking, whatever serves as memory and its driver), regardless of whether anything can actually physically touch it as well as verify such action. Not going into souls or anything presumed strictly intangible.

Capability of duplicating the source of one's mind into a computerized system would only be one challenge of actually replicating it. If you're aware of how a CPU operates, you would know how much the contents of the RAM are vital, but I digress. The duplication will need to be aware of how its new host is driven, or the replication fails immediately. Proper mapping of senses is also required as the dupe would not be developing from scratch (the case for an AI), and is used to operating senses of the source host. In other words, the IO system needs to be suited for the dupe, so built on-the-fly. If the source's state were preserved in the process, it is doubtful anything would actually change even if the original dies, aside the existence of a replica. Whereas if the process were destructive, it would be roughly the same case just having the source forced to die immediately.

The paragraph above does not even cover sentience, sustenance, or complications of having originally biological memory driven by a digital system. How would rebooting work? At least for a human, having the brain turned off is a euphemism for being dead. And we all know how easy it is to crash or overheat a regular computer as well.

So, my take on the consciousness separation idea, it might perhaps involve replication and some kind of synchronization such that it transmigrated the original's sentient state upon death. Easier said than anything else, really. (N.B. that I say replicate and not copy, which could mean replication of a replica.)

TL;DR: I don't find the idea disturbing whatsoever, but it's interestingly complicated enough.


Anyway, this is just what I fathom how science could even approach this sort of thing. I doubt that I would want to computerize my own mind either way. Probably you guys don't either seeing how you find living (potentially) forever is overrated, but that's my guess.

Offline AceHigh

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Re: Human mind into a computer
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2012, 02:33:03 AM »
Chill. We are machines ourselves, just made from a different material. As soon as we get full understanding of how our brain functions and have technology to create a computer with same or better specs, there will be no difference if our mind is in a biological machine, or a synthetic one.
For one thing, Tiff is not on any level what I would call a typical American.  She's not what I would consider a typical person.  I don't know any other genius geneticist anime-fan martial artist marksman model-level beauties, do you?

Offline Nikkoru

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Re: Human mind into a computer
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2012, 04:58:43 AM »
Greg Egan is one of my favourite science fiction authors on the subject of post-humanism and questions of ontology. If you ever find a copy of copy of Axiomatic -- or any of his books -- I suggest you pick it up.

This is one of his better short stories on the subject.
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Offline rkruger

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Re: Human mind into a computer
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2012, 05:35:05 AM »
Capability of duplicating the source of one's mind into a computerized system would only be one challenge of actually replicating it. If you're aware of how a CPU operates, you would know how much the contents of the RAM are vital, but I digress. The duplication will need to be aware of how its new host is driven, or the replication fails immediately. Proper mapping of senses is also required as the dupe would not be developing from scratch (the case for an AI), and is used to operating senses of the source host. In other words, the IO system needs to be suited for the dupe, so built on-the-fly. If the source's state were preserved in the process, it is doubtful anything would actually change even if the original dies, aside the existence of a replica. Whereas if the process were destructive, it would be roughly the same case just having the source forced to die immediately.
For this to even remotely work, we need to first move away from the Von Neumann architecture. I think, what is needed, is a kind of hardware neural net system, that replicates the brain, just using other materials.

So, my take on the consciousness separation idea, it might perhaps involve replication and some kind of synchronization such that it transmigrated the original's sentient state upon death. Easier said than anything else, really. (N.B. that I say replicate and not copy, which could mean replication of a replica.)
So what you are describing is a kind of DRM system on your brain, that's an interesting though. If we ever get this far, do you think we will have problems with "piracy" of people's minds?  ;D

But back to Ixarku's original fear:
If we take a step way from computers, and imagine that we hypothetically could replicate entire molecular structures. (Just copy atom for atom.)
If you then make a copy of yourself, which one is the "you"? The original or the copy?

Offline Saras

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Re: Human mind into a computer
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2012, 05:53:39 AM »
There is an extremely large difference between how a CPU and a brain works. So you could only "insert" and emulate a brain if it's calculation speeds are stupendously higher than the brains. Realistically a biological computer would be required for such a task.

I fully believe that one could upload ones mind into a machine in the distant future. Having said that, I doubt that we'd remain we, our memories would be stored, however the functional machine wouldn't be "us". Do not forget that a lot of the stuff that makes us human comes from the reptilian brain, the biological need to fulfil our urges. As machines, these are mostly irrelevant, there is no point in say sex for a computer. However, without sex a human isn't really human. Not to mention the internet, the interconnectedness. If such a time does come, we'd be closer to a hivemind than "a guy in a box".

Offline criver

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Re: Human mind into a computer
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2012, 09:52:53 AM »
Ever read Akumetsu/ watched the Matrix? + if you make a human mind into a computer you won't have all the physiological feedback from the body (so you'd have to also emulate the body etc.)

Offline megido-rev.M

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Re: Human mind into a computer
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2012, 05:39:43 PM »
(click to show/hide)

A misunderstanding. I am not dismissing the possibility of this idea. But merely adding a layer of abstraction onto it and related items does not really change much except mask some basic constraints.

(click to show/hide)

I just skimmed it, and it appears to contain many subtopics I know of. Might read the rest later.

For this to even remotely work, we need to first move away from the Von Neumann architecture. I think, what is needed, is a kind of hardware neural net system, that replicates the brain, just using other materials.

Indeed, the system's architecture is one of the decisive factors. The material science does not really concern me, however.

So what you are describing is a kind of DRM system on your brain, that's an interesting though. If we ever get this far, do you think we will have problems with "piracy" of people's minds?  ;D

But back to Ixarku's original fear:
If we take a step way from computers, and imagine that we hypothetically could replicate entire molecular structures. (Just copy atom for atom.)
If you then make a copy of yourself, which one is the "you"? The original or the copy?

It's kinda funny, I think there would probably be more ethical problems than "piracy". And concerning distinguishing the original, there might be something that would serve as a designation, but otherwise it would be just plain annoying to have to figure out.


I think physiology would fall under drivers and IO, but that would be oversimplifying things.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 05:41:15 PM by megido-rev.M »

Offline kitamesume

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Re: Human mind into a computer
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2012, 07:28:34 AM »
actually i've been wondering about this for a while, though on a different point of view.

what if your mind becomes the I/O of a computer? you wouldn't need a mouse, keyboard nor touchscreen to use a computer.
whats more is that every task would be so precise that you wouldn't need to zoom in and click that damn tiny pixel.

on another note, what about piloting a droid through the internet? you'd be sleeping in a capsule forever and use the droid similar to avatar, replaceable to boot, and skin customizable! damn gonna be a smexy machine.

now onto the technicalities:
if they could make the interface between the mind and machine small enough to fit a sunglasses and add in a function of injecting images directly into your mind, similar to having hallucinations, and make the interface a wireless tool then you get whats similar to Mnemosyne's 4th arc.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2012, 07:34:26 AM by kitamesume »

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Offline criver

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Re: Human mind into a computer
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2012, 05:14:42 PM »
actually i've been wondering about this for a while, though on a different point of view.

what if your mind becomes the I/O of a computer? you wouldn't need a mouse, keyboard nor touchscreen to use a computer.
whats more is that every task would be so precise that you wouldn't need to zoom in and click that damn tiny pixel.

on another note, what about piloting a droid through the internet? you'd be sleeping in a capsule forever and use the droid similar to avatar, replaceable to boot, and skin customizable! damn gonna be a smexy machine.

now onto the technicalities:
if they could make the interface between the mind and machine small enough to fit a sunglasses and add in a function of injecting images directly into your mind, similar to having hallucinations, and make the interface a wireless tool then you get whats similar to Mnemosyne's 4th arc.
and if, and if... (watched to much movies?) :P

"But back to Ixarku's original fear:
If we take a step way from computers, and imagine that we hypothetically could replicate entire molecular structures. (Just copy atom for atom.)
If you then make a copy of yourself, which one is the "you"? The original or the copy?" - read Akumetsu seriously...(you could also read Gantz)
« Last Edit: April 01, 2012, 05:16:20 PM by criver »

Offline elvikun

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Re: Human mind into a computer
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2012, 05:22:48 PM »
Well, as I said in the Ghost Love, hmans ARE, for all intents and purposes mashines operated by complex computer, only difference beween this and conventional mashines is the organic building material.
Why would it be disturbing to move the programming from one mashine to another, if such a thing would be possible?

On the other note, if you were able to copy the mind completly with all of it's features as they were, while destroying the original, the copy would be the original, especially if the person in question believed that. Question is whether the term "copy" applies at the first place.

Oh, and yes, immortality is overrated. Most people don't really think about the consequences much. On the other hand, immortality, in a sense no-aging with a chance to end it all at will is a whole different matter.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2012, 05:27:53 PM by elvikun »
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Offline Saras

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Re: Human mind into a computer
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2012, 05:33:22 PM »
actually i've been wondering about this for a while, though on a different point of view.

what if your mind becomes the I/O of a computer? you wouldn't need a mouse, keyboard nor touchscreen to use a computer.
whats more is that every task would be so precise that you wouldn't need to zoom in and click that damn tiny pixel.

on another note, what about piloting a droid through the internet? you'd be sleeping in a capsule forever and use the droid similar to avatar, replaceable to boot, and skin customizable! damn gonna be a smexy machine.

now onto the technicalities:
if they could make the interface between the mind and machine small enough to fit a sunglasses and add in a function of injecting images directly into your mind, similar to having hallucinations, and make the interface a wireless tool then you get whats similar to Mnemosyne's 4th arc.
and if, and if... (watched to much movies?) :P

"But back to Ixarku's original fear:
If we take a step way from computers, and imagine that we hypothetically could replicate entire molecular structures. (Just copy atom for atom.)
If you then make a copy of yourself, which one is the "you"? The original or the copy?" - read Akumetsu seriously...(you could also read Gantz)
Did this come up out of possibilities of teleportation, as it is a common problem cited in such scenarios? If so, I should probably remind you that transferring matter via quantum entanglement requires the destruction of the matter being transferred. You do not end up with two identical copies.

If you are referring to building something from scratch via the bottom-up approach. There would be no difference, both objects would be identical, neither of which would be more real than the other. There is nothing known to modern science witch would allow differentiation between the two bodies. An atom of carbon is just an atom of carbon, whether it's the atom in you or the one in that skyscraper. It carries no identification of where it was taken from.

Offline Ixarku

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Re: Human mind into a computer
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2012, 05:44:47 PM »
At some point, I will actually read this thread, think about it some more, and post a response to something.  But I am worn the fuck out (another weekend of painting, yard work, and generally doing stuff around the house, yay!), so instead I am going to merely acknowledge that I am aware of this thread and/or approve its existence.
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Offline Goldfrapp

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Re: Human mind into a computer
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2012, 06:11:49 PM »
First I thought of when i read this, was HAL 9000, from "A Space Odyssey.

I think that is what would happen if a human mind came into a computer;
After a while, you would get really bored, and the only thing you could do to have fun,
is to make pranks on the people who owns the computer.

It would start very innocent, but after a while you would do anything to drive the people on the
outside as insane as you are becoming.

And then you would do anything to kill them...
« Last Edit: April 01, 2012, 07:02:08 PM by Goldfrapp »
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Offline Nikkoru

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Re: Human mind into a computer
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2012, 08:22:50 PM »
Some people have this impression that there will be some moral or cognitive dissonance with the innovation of some of the more science fictional technologies. I recall the beginning of Asimov's I, Robot anthology, with a white-bread suburban family getting their ontological hackles raised by the new Robo-nanny and labour unions being labour unions - the technology was banned on Earth until decades later where they're the benevolent rulers. We read Frankenstein complex stuff, which began with the eponymous novel and will remain in popular fiction until Judgement Day. Fear of objects becoming subjects, of breaking through the illusion of the soul as a metaphysical property stuck in unwholesome and squishy flesh assembled haphazardly in some woman's uterus. The usual result is something like Khaaaaaaannnnnnnnnn nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn nnnnnnnn!, the Borg, T-1000's, or Mitt Romney. We assert that humanity is something special, and like every Shakespeare play, throwing the natural order out of commission can only lead to bad things. 

The problem with that perspective is it ignores the observed evidence. We've been living in a science-fictional age for a generation or two now, with innovations happening faster than epochs of human history. You know what? We're adapting like a boss. There are concerns sure, but for the most part people are clambering for the next gadget with the new doodad attached. I believe this is an instinctual, primordial, lizard-brained response to our most basic evolutionary advantage. We use tools, we love tools, we're not sabre-tooth chump meat because we gots sharpened sticks and knew damn well which edge was the pointy one, we didn't freeze to death 'cause we received our merit badge in fire-craft. Every time technology gets made, and we see someone else use it to improve their condition, we want to replicate them.

Downloading your consciousness into digital form? It sounds strange, but so would an internet forum on a anime-based torrent site be to someone 40 years ago. That's because he or she haven't gone through the chain of steps required for such a thing to exists, not just technologically, but culturally. Assuming bio-digital trans-mutation is possible, by the time we get there these kinds of discussions will be mere trite academic arguments for philosophy students, the culture will have moved on. People who see the advantages in being raptured digitally will be selling their unneeded organs to get in the queue.

The same goes for bio-engineering, if we choose to go that route. Hell, otaku will be getting their children with candy coloured hair and unnaturally bright, large, and colourful eyes.
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Offline elvikun

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Re: Human mind into a computer
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2012, 09:29:44 PM »
First I thought of when i read this, was HAL 9000, from "A Space Odyssey.

I think that is what would happen if a human mind came into a computer;
After a while, you would get really bored, and the only thing you could do to have fun,
is to make pranks on the people who owns the computer.

It would start very innocent, but after a while you would do anything to drive the people on the
outside as insane as you are becoming.

And then you would do anything to kill them...

Are you saying that if transfers as such were possible, you would be actually selling those people as products to others?
I think the idea was to live on in digital form for your sake, not to be made into a kitchen helper robot.



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« Last Edit: April 01, 2012, 09:31:57 PM by elvikun »
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Offline mgz

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Re: Human mind into a computer
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2012, 09:47:23 PM »
Chill. We are machines ourselves, just made from a different material. As soon as we get full understanding of how our brain functions and have technology to create a computer with same or better specs, there will be no difference if our mind is in a biological machine, or a synthetic one.
yea this will become more true as we began to technologically evolve and begin incorporating computers into our bodies(nano tech etc) Which will bridge the gap.

IMO the "soul" as we know is likely just the shit that is damaged in the entire body. In short every little imperfection is what defines an individual on a cellular level. Which is what we perceive as the soul. Again that is just IMO.

Offline megido-rev.M

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Re: Human mind into a computer
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2012, 11:44:58 PM »
(click to show/hide)

Basically, remotely working a computer (e.g. a server) using your brain. Aside from the interfacing we're not that far off. ;D

(click to show/hide)

Yes, the material science is mostly relevant to the manufacturing (i.e. not the architecture) than to functionality.
On the programming side of things, I figure the 'soft-drivers' are part of the brain's contents, otherwise the logic would be handled by the hardware architecture; nothing would be really left behind.

I believe a minimal necessity to distinguish the original is related to causality, otherwise, if there were absolutely nothing tracing back to the original's designation, it might as well be impossible (or just plain annoying) to figure out.

I think that is what would happen if a human mind came into a computer;
After a while, you would get really bored, and the only thing you could do to have fun,
is to make pranks on the people who owns the computer.

In our typical personal computers, the CPU essentially does this: read memory, do something, some kind of caching => repeat; that's pretty boring already with that regard. But don't think we're focusing on personal computers, or appliances for that matter.

(click to show/hide)

Considering the way technological advancements are supposed to trend, it actually would be quite dismal if there were no beneficial breakthroughs in all the related areas as well (the possible abuses are another story). Nevertheless, unless we are discussing about warfare devices (hell, even computers were being in development since WWII), overall there shouldn't be anything in innovations that would be worrisome. So yes, moving toward something which might appear science-fictional should not inherently be bad, and being disturbed by it is simply silly-- nonsensical, baseless, or recalling media if preemptively so.

IMO the "soul" as we know is likely just the shit that is damaged in the entire body. In short every little imperfection is what defines an individual on a cellular level. Which is what we perceive as the soul. Again that is just IMO.

As far as I am aware, there is no universal definition of 'soul', and philosophers seemingly go nowhere concerning this as they also try to also accommodate some religious perspectives. Of course, this is merely my observation.

Anyway, should I use the word 'soul' anywhere, I would just be using it as a combination word for [all possible states of] mentality + personality, among other things which would be characteristic to a sentient entity.

Offline rkruger

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Re: Human mind into a computer
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2012, 05:40:46 AM »
read Akumetsu seriously...(you could also read Gantz)
I have read Gantz, and now that you mention it, I recall that there was a "problematic" scenario in there, yes.

I am currently watching Kaiba, and it really touches this subject.
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Offline Soryon

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Re: Human mind into a computer
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2012, 05:42:45 AM »
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Offline Goldfrapp

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Re: Human mind into a computer
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2012, 05:43:06 AM »


Are you saying that if transfers as such were possible, you would be actually selling those people as products to others?
I think the idea was to live on in digital form for your sake, not to be made into a kitchen helper robot.



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Well, if did it for our own sake, as if we could transfer our mind into a computer, and do whatever we wished, I think it would be basicly the same. Someone would always find a way to exploit the system and to use it for their own sake.
The problem with the world is that the intelligent  people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.