Ore no Imouto ga Konna ni Kawaii Wake ga Nai Dai 2-ki

[Tompior]

Taking bath together for X years.
One day - GTFO.

Always going everywhere with her brother for X years.
One day - GTFO, I'm going alone.

Of course, she was a bitch, but Kyousoku could have handled it better.

[Garret02]

You should watch more carefully next time. Those examples are from times when he still was "mega super omg know-it-all can-do-everything" brother and not the reason she changed her attitude towards him. She started treating him like shit because he decided "boring" life is the best. It had nothing to do with how he acted towards her.

[CappinHoff]

Taking bath together for X years.
One day - GTFO.

Always going everywhere with her brother for X years.
One day - GTFO, I'm going alone.

Of course, she was a bitch, but Kyousoku could have handled it better.

Umm that's usually what happens with younger sisters becoming teenagers.

[Xycolian2332]

what a poopy show

[megido-rev.M]

Well, it can get to you.

[Volusus]

What the fuck

I hate it when series end with crappy flashback/memory moment episodes. It was building up to something good when bitchface kept professing her love for homie g but then she went and fucked everything up by saying that he isn't åsome and cool anymore, instead of having a sweet boning session like those two deviants in Koi Kaze. asdfsdfgsfdg the only thing that kept people watching this show was the hinted incest factor but fizzled out hard.

, since the last few episodes before the last were pretty good and inclined my hopes.

PITCHFORKS!

[vuzedome]

Garret02, why are you getting so worked up on an unrealistic situation?
Like I've mentioned at the beginning, what Manami said was realistic.

 

[ph4zr]

Well, he did sort of give up on his whole "being awesome, I-can-do-anything" deal. When someone you admired that much suddenly "let's you down" by apparently betraying everything they stood for in your mind, yeah, sometimes you get pissed. In a sense, she kinda probably felt personally betrayed, as if everything was a lie.

Whether or not I agree with it, it's a bit similar to the whole "entitlement" thing with online authors/creators and their fanbases' reactions when they "screw up" the story (according to some portion of any given fanbase). To some, whether or not the change was justified, whether or not the other individual has a right to self-determination, such as it may exist, simply doesn't matter in comparison to the fact that their expectations were not met.

It's too bad the anime didn't manage to cover a bit more of the back-story regarding -why- he changed, though. I feel like that might've cleared up some things for some people.


Anyway! On to the OVA in August!

You do remember that there is an OVA, right? The show isn't "over" yet. There's still time to get your happy ending, or be horribly trolled, depending on how it turns out and what you wanted/expected. XD

Edit: Well, hell, if Management supports no spoilers, might as well make reading easier. ^^;

[Garret02]

Garret02, why are you getting so worked up on an unrealistic situation?
Like I've mentioned at the beginning, what Manami said was realistic.

"Oh crap, I'm out of arguments but I still don't want to admit I was wrong while still having the last word. Let's change the topic."
And no, I'm not getting worked up. I'm merely enjoying discussion (facepalm here and there can be refreshing). If we talked face to face you would be met by indifferent face and emotionless voice. Combined with this after some of your arguments. And this discussion is quite interesting because I find it very hard to understand majority of human relationships.

Well, he did sort of give up on his whole "being awesome, I-can-do-anything" deal. When someone you admired that much suddenly "let's you down" by apparently betraying everything they stood for in your mind, yeah, sometimes you get pissed. In a sense, she kinda probably felt personally betrayed, as if everything was a lie.

And you are allowed to give up on anything and no one should give you shit about that (unless you're paid for doing thing on which you gave up). I can understand Kirio feeling betrayed by her brother. I can understand that she was pissed about that. What I can't understand, or rather I can, it's just that's the perfect example of being a total bitch, is acting on this "betrayal" like the whole world should do be to her liking. The only fault of Kyouske in this is that he didn't smack her good.

[ph4zr]

Gwah... I've read the whole thread, if quickly, and I still can't figure out which comments of Manami's Vuzedome's post refer to.

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I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the view that individuals have a right to self-determination, such as it is. But human interactions, particularly in close relationships, can be quite complicated. Whether or not I understand it, whether or not you understand it (based on your comments regarding human relationships), often times people "meddle because they care" or "get upset because they care". One can see this often in things like "interventions" for individuals with severe gambling or drinking problems (I'm talking "destroying their lives" severity, not "occasionally is an asshole when drunk or on a string of bad luck").

In situations like that, it can be very upsetting to observers who want to think of themselves as more than just "spectators" in the person's life. It can be very hurtful to them to have to watch someone they care about tearing their own lives apart or "wasting" so much of their potential. For the less closely related, it can be painful to watch someone with more potential to surpass normal human limitations and be more than they are essentially waste their lives doing nothing.

Is it the right of a surgical genius to retire from surgery and take up acting?
Most definitely.

Is someone, certainly someone close to them, going to be pissed about it?
Quite possibly.

Is that right?
Who can say?

Is it human?
Most certainly.

Side note: I do not mean to imply that acting is a lesser profession. I am merely using an example of something that some might consider to be a "step down" in terms of value.

Anyway, it's anime, so I'm just going to ignore the "smacking" comment, although I do rather hope that wouldn't also be your proposed solution to someone in a similar situation in RL.

That aside, Kirino is a teenager still in her early-to-mid teens and, like it or not, during that particular period of development "immaturity" is perhaps the norm. There's a lot going on both physically and mentally, and rationality sometimes takes a back seat to all the chaos. Whether or not I agree with it or think it's an ideal response or justified in any real sense, her reaction to the situation isn't all that surprising, and might even be more or less expected of someone of her age and in her situation.

Well, maybe minus the whole imouto-eroge route the story takes.

If you consider the vocal reactions of posters online in response to analogous situations, you might even think it was the norm, even for individuals who are allegedly adults.

Anyway, I'm not arguing that Kirino isn't wrong to act the way she did. I am arguing that I think it's a bit harsh to judge her with such strict standards. Regardless of how I feel about humanity and whether I'm satisfied with its "norms", I think her reactions at the time were quite human.

On the flip side, I'm also not saying I think any of it was Kyousuke's or Manami's fault. I won't really go into LN details, but, in the long run, I think the changes to his personality to which Kirino reacted were in his best interest. Furthermore, as much as I generally don't care for Manami, I think her influence on Kyousuke, as well as her comments to Kirino, improved the situation, even if they did raise the tension level between the two siblings.

edit: "it's" != "its" *facepalm*

[Garret02]

^ Again, being pissed off - fine. Acting like she did - not fine.
Excuse me, strict standards? Strict? Are we talking about the same person? Because I'm talking about someone who treated her brother like utter shit when she didn't ignore him (and it's not exaggeration, just in case, I'm not talking about season 2 only, I'm talking about both seasons and period before first season), beat him for no reason whatsoever and was completely ungrateful (visibly) for his help for majority of the series. And all this because her brother got bored with being hyper active. And for that I call her utter bitch. If that is harsh, then... I don't know... I don't know

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And yes, smacking people is my preferred solution to every problem. Because you see, using words against majority of people is like using electric type pokemon against grass type. There might be some effect but usually not really. Although due to the legal reason I constrained myself and learnt to not to give a fuck so I wouldn't hit people. But if someone hits me I don't care why or who he/she is, they are gettig hit back (unless ofcourse, they are much stronger than me, then I will die trying). And Kirino hit Kyouske few times. She's fully qualified for a good smacking.

[ph4zr]

!Seinfeld! \o/

Hm... it's quite possible that my view is too heavily influenced by the LN and the side stories to view her in quite the same light. It's also possible that my experience with the world has led me to be more... "forgiving", as some might call it, or "condescending", as others (and I myself) might describe it, than what is perhaps the majority of individuals.

In any case, understanding her character and her motivations a bit more rather softened my view of her, so I am admittedly biased in that respect. I watched the same show, though. My overall opinion, pre-LN reading, was more of a "wow, she can't be honest with herself, can she?" type view. I thought she was pretty awful, yeah—if not to the point of hate—but toward the end of S1, and more so in S2, it really felt to me like it was just too awkward for her to just suddenly be all "onii-chan, daaaaaaaisuki" ('onii-chan, I looove you') than that she wanted to keep being so bitchy. After being the norm for so long, it can be pretty tough to make a change like that.

Granted, the example is a bit of an exaggeration. I actually would have a hard time imagining her saying something like that, but the point is I think a lot of it was an act or done out of habit. And I think Kyousuke, such as he is, understood that, at least on a subconscious level, and maybe even enjoyed it... being the M(asochist) that he is, and all. Sadly, the anime omits a lot of his internal monologue, meaning the viewer misses out on a lot of his personal perspective.

Mind, my choice of shows is probably very skewed toward the inclusion of tsundere, tsuntsun, and even yandere/yangire characters, so conversely I also have much looser standards for judging characters of those types than many others. Case in point: my favorite character in this show and in the LNs is Ayase, and has been for some time.

As for the other bit, well, it's probably best I don't get into an argument on that topic. I'll just settle with disagreeing with that particular life philosophy—from my predominately apathetic perspective, doing otherwise would not accomplish anything of sufficient value to justify the hassle.

(Re: Pokémon) Actually, if you're serious, a well leveled electric type Pokémon could utterly obliterate all but the immune types, so far as the common trash you'd encounter from NPCs or in the wild—which comprise the majority, if you don't do competitions, et cetera. I went through all of Pokémon Yellow with mostly just Pikachu when I was younger. XD

As a shounen protagonist might say: Where there's 『Passion』, there's a way!

[Garret02]

Yup, I don't know LN Kirino but I still don't think much could justify her attitude (unless, idk, he raped her or something). Ofcourse if LN Kirino is anywhere near the S1 Kirino. Oh, I forgot that Kyouske is a masochist. That's actually a preatty good point for not smacking her.

Tsunderes are fine... up to a certain point.

This is why I used grass type ine the example, because like I said, it might have an effect albeit not strong enough. Personally, my Pikachu refused to do strongest attack (Thunder if my memory serves me right) about half the tries. And when he did he often missed. So I always needed strong backup.

[ph4zr]

It's less about what happened to cause it and more about understanding her internal thought processes. Particularly the POV piece covering the same content as the first episode of S1, and v11 of the LN in particular, of which e13 of S2 barely scratched the surface.

Granted, v11 mostly just reinforces my view that "Kirino is 'simply human'"—that and it highlights how ridiculously dense Kyousuke is/can be. The side story is probably the only thing that might make any difference in terms of interpreting Kirino's character. In a sense, it's a bit like Tomoya's feeling toward his father in Clannad (based on anime only)—it has a lot to do with how they're being treated, as well.

Recall, they've been in that state ever since the flashback in e13, which was during Kyousuke's middle school years, and he's about to graduate HS when the anime takes place. Prior to the events of the anime, they mostly just didn't talk to each other. It's only after S1 e01 that she starts being really bitchy to him. As she put it then: "who are you to suddenly start acting like my brother, after all these years of treating me like a stranger?!" (paraphrased, possible changes to orig. meaning)

But, that's just me expanding on my previous rants. Most likely, if you didn't agree with my previous views that were inclined toward viewing Kirino in a softer light, those won't do much to influence your opinion, either. All I can say is: human interactions and relationships can be and often are incredibly complex.

A bit more of a jaded perspective, though: I am, quite honestly, probably reading waaaaay too much into Kirino's character, judging by the author and how he might have wanted to finish the story, if certain forum comments regarding the author's own comments are accurate (haven't checked the source myself—can't find the damned forum post anymore, either).

As Kirino might describe it, the entire novel might be considered one giant "self-satisfaction piece" (or if you prefer...)... ^^; Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed it, but who knows what the author's motivations for writing the characters that way were?

[megido-rev.M]

No idea.

[dbml]

Not a whole lot to say about the series, other than that season 2 was infinitely better than season 1. More Ruri and seeing the real Saori was great.

[Garret02]

It's less about what happened to cause it and more about understanding her internal thought processes. Particularly the POV piece covering the same content as the first episode of S1, and v11 of the LN in particular, of which e13 of S2 barely scratched the surface.

Look, the internal thoughts are fine. I get why she was pissed, I understand it. The problem is with how she decided to express her mood.

Recall, they've been in that state ever since the flashback in e13, which was during Kyousuke's middle school years, and he's about to graduate HS when the anime takes place. Prior to the events of the anime, they mostly just didn't talk to each other. It's only after S1 e01 that she starts being really bitchy to him. As she put it then: "who are you to suddenly start acting like my brother, after all these years of treating me like a stranger?!" (paraphrased, possible changes to orig. meaning)

This is why many were sure/suspecting that Kyouske was a douchebag and partialy or fully responsible for bitchiness of Kirino. However ep 13 showed us nothing as such. It was Kirino who started ignoring him and then treat him like shit if and when he tried to communicate with her. And so he did a very sensible thing: "Don't go where you are not welcome". If more people had this decent attitude the world would be a better place. Relationships don't work like "If he cares he will do anything to be by your side (therefore treat him like shit and see if he cares)". No, that would be "If he is selfish he will do anything to be by your side" (and many people are selfish hence the belief in first sentence is reinforced). The real way it works is "If he cares he will do anything to make you happy including disappearing from your live if he believes you desire so".

[ph4zr]

*scratches head* Trying to figure this out here...

* ph4zr casts WALL (Protective Barrier), critting for 8999 damage (?!)

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So, basically: You do understand why she might feel the way she does, and are okay with that. You can understand why she might act the way she does, but are not okay with that. You consider the situation Kirino's fault, not Kyousuke's—significantly, you do consider it to be someone's fault in the first place. And you also agree that Thunder is generally just a crappy move with horrible accuracy.

From my perspective: I do understand why she might feel the way she does, and am okay with that. I can understand why she might act the way she does, and, while I don't agree with her behavior or consider it ideal, I consider it within the realm of expectation. I don't consider the situation Kirino's fault, or Kyousuke's—significantly, I do not consider it to be anyone's fault in the first place. And I also agree that Thunder is generally just a crappy move with horrible accuracy.

If that's roughly the sum of it, I think I have an idea of what you're getting at, but I still think Kirino's behavior is in line with the "rebellious teenager phase" where an "everyone is supposed to understand me/no one can understand me but they should anyway" attitude isn't all that uncommon. I certainly think it would have been better if they had hashed it out and she had simply said "Look, I'm pissed at you. You've changed, and I don't like this change. So like WTF man?" But she didn't. OTOH, Kyousuke also didn't go "Look, you're pissed at me. I get that. What I don't get is why. Could you just tell me? And then can't we go back to being normal brother and sister, maybe minus all the clinginess?" But he didn't. He basically just ignored the problem, if he even realized there was one in the first place, and then he's surprised when she's bitchy when he acts like nothing has happened and tries to be a brother again.

Actually, hell, in e13, she did call him out on it (e13, ~10m). He brushed her off. Now, I don't think Kirino necessarily had a *right* to an answer, but I think that, all things considered—their relationship, her obvious admiration for him, the seemingly inexplicable about-face of his personality—she *deserved* one. I also think that, had she gotten one, things would have been very, very different between them during those few years. Since he didn't give her one, I think it's rather odd that he's surprised when she acts the way she does toward him.

But, like I said, I don't think anyone was really at fault. I think it's just a horrible case of terrible communication. He changed, for an actually rather good reason, but he was too dense (he is apparently insanely dense) to realize that it caused a rift between him and his sister. She didn't like the change, and, despite the fact that she was, at the time, literally a mere elementary schooler, no one thought to maybe sit down with her and talk about it so she could understand. Can anyone seriously expect a typical elementary schooler to get something like that so easily? No one ever explained to her that the reason her "aniki who always tried his best" went away was because it just wasn't working, because it was actually causing problems. As far as Kirino was concerned, it was just Manami being meddlesome and changing her beloved "aniki" into some bum with no drive.

Manami's comments, true or not, certainly didn't help the situation, either. Rather than being all trollish and saying "the aniki you admired never existed to begin with, I'm not giving him back to you (hahahahahaha) /personal interpretation", she might have pointed out why. ... /insert manami-trollface.jpg/ But, I don't think she really thought it through that far. Especially not considering how slow she usually seems to begin with.

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From my interpretation of your perspective, the relationship should have just stayed in that state, neither party interacting with the other, but also neither party acting hostilely toward the other. Kirino could remain pissed. Kyousuke could remain apathetic toward and uninterested in his sister. After all, she wants nothing to do with his current self, and he doesn't want to bother trying to deal with her when she's like that.

Plenty of relationships, especially sibling relationships, go that way. People just stop talking to each other, forever. For normal relationships, maybe, that's fine. A bit regretful in some cases, but there are many, many potential relationships out there—sometimes the work just isn't worth it without any history to hold it together. For a sibling relationship... well, I can't really "pass judgment" one way or another. Every family has their own circumstances. In this particular case, though, I think that outcome would be terribly sad, especially considering how well they used to get along.

From my perspective, since it was too late to go back and just cancel the whole misunderstanding, Kyousuke maybe should have realized that "yeah, I've basically dropped out of her life for the last three years, maybe I shouldn't just suddenly act all chummy and realize that there's some kind of unresolved tension," as opposed to "why you bitch! I'm trying to help you, and this is how you treat me?"

From my perspective, when a relationship has reached that point, you can't just jump back into someone's life and expect them to be all "onii-chan, daiiiiiiiiisuki! Where TF have you been these past few years? I missed you!" If you ignore them for that long, and treat them like a stranger for that long, yeah they're probably going to be skeptical and defensive. For some people, being "defensive" means putting up a hostile front—hurt them before they hurt you, let them know that you do bite, and you will sure as fuck bite back if they mess with you. Maybe even put one right between their eyes if they try to buck with you. .../lamepun

I don't know. I don't really agree with all the "touchy feely" "I feel, you feel, how does everyone feel" stuff. But I do think that bothering to try to understand where the other party is coming from, rather than assigning blame and saying things like "it's your fault ...[etc.]...", will get a relationship a lot further and do a lot more toward maintaining the relationship in the long run.

Plus, if Kyousuke had just given her what for from the very beginning, either the problems would have resolved immediately, or they really never would have spoken to each other again—then there would be no story at all!

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Unfortunately, I can neither really agree or disagree with your last set of statements. From my perspective, all human behavior is motivated by self-interest in some form or other, meaning that claiming any behavior to be "selfish" is essentially claiming a truism and thus not of any real value as an assertion. That isn't to say I don't understand what your statements are asserting—at least, that assumption is one I am willing to make.

Even setting aside my more all-encompassing interpretation of "selfishness", I think it's possible to care -and- be selfish. On the one hand, you want the individual to be happy/have a better life, on the other, you also want to be a part of it. It wouldn't reach the realm of "selfishness" by the more casual definition in my view unless "being in their life" also significantly diminished "their ability to be happy".

Sometimes, that means taking a bit of a beating to get the other party to understand that "you mean no harm", until they're willing to listen to what you actually have to say. Hell, it's a bit like that scene at the end of Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind. But, in the end, I think Kyousuke got that much, and Kirino also came to terms with the change.

Possibly relevant to keep in mind: Even in KimiNozo, I never really thought "anyone was at fault" from the main cast, despite ALL of the shit going on there, even if some of it would've still angered me IRL. So it's also possible I'm inclined toward viewing such a thing as just a plain train wreck of a situation, or a freak accident of sorts.

Ah—despite the wall, I'm not particularly "worked up". Just a bit puzzled and trying to clarify, is all.

But, people actually assumed Kyousuke might have been a douchebag at the start? I wasn't aware of this view. I thought everyone just considered Kirino a bitch. True, he's pretty far from perfect in a lot of ways, but so are most non-insert characters.

Anyway, when the OVAs come out, this will all be "so episode 13 already". Not much point in casting blame if the characters themselves don't even care at that point. Of course, people might start throwing tomatoes at the creator, but meh. XD

[Garret02]

Geez, dude, have mercy on an engineer. More substance, less words.

First, if something bad happens, someone is always at fault. ALWAYS.
And I think you still misunderstand me a bit (or maybe I'm misunderstanding you). Is Kirino behaviour in scope of human somewhat expected behaviour? Yes, it is. But that doesn't make it ok to act like this. If you act like that, you are a bitch. That's basically what I'm saying. We judge people based on their behaviour. And I judged Kirino to be an utter bitch and have trouble understanding why anyone would want to defend her. Because from my POV the reasons she started acting this way are not valid reasons. And just for the record I don't have problems with the "ignore each other" period.
Noone is expected her to get all lovely dovely about Kyouske when they started talking with each other again. But a simple respect for another human being should be present even if artificial one. You know, society exists because people do not act like they real self (and I mean real real self). People are only fully themselves when they are drunk. And seeing how people often try to defend themselves by claiming that they were drunk when they did so and so points out it's not very smart to act on your every feeling.
Once again I didn't expect from her to jump straight into old sibling relationship. But when someone helps you, you don't treat him like a shit (unless it's his redemption for doing something terrible to you in the past, which again is not something Kyouske did). and you certainly don't hit him.

Actually, hell, in e13, she did call him out on it (e13, ~10m). He brushed her off. Now, I don't think Kirino necessarily had a *right* to an answer, but I think that, all things considered—their relationship, her obvious admiration for him, the seemingly inexplicable about-face of his personality—she *deserved* one. I also think that, had she gotten one, things would have been very, very different between them during those few years. Since he didn't give her one, I think it's rather odd that he's surprised when she acts the way she does toward him.

Brushed her off? He did answer her you know. If I recall it was something along "Because peacful life is the best". That is full answer.

From my perspective, since it was too late to go back and just cancel the whole misunderstanding, Kyousuke maybe should have realized that "yeah, I've basically dropped out of her life for the last three years, maybe I shouldn't just suddenly act all chummy and realize that there's some kind of unresolved tension," as opposed to "why you bitch! I'm trying to help you, and this is how you treat me?"

Once again, Kyouske did a sensible thing. If someone is acting hostile towrads you when you're trying to communicate with them, you leave them alone. Expecting someone to read your mind is wrong. I know that it's very common in our society (which immensly pisses me off) but it shouldn't be like that and accepting such behaviour is also wrong. And btw. IIRC Kyouske never acted the way your second quote indicates.

I don't know. I don't really agree with all the "touchy feely" "I feel, you feel, how does everyone feel" stuff. But I do think that bothering to try to understand where the other party is coming from, rather than assigning blame and saying things like "it's your fault ...[etc.]...", will get a relationship a lot further and do a lot more toward maintaining the relationship in the long run.

But it's not like I assigned blame just like that. I first bothered to understand why both of them acted the way they acted. Upon this understanding I judged Kirino actions to not be appropriate as reasons for her behaviour are not good enough. Kyouske never did anything wrong to her and just because she decided she doesn't like grown up Kyouske, that doesn't incline him to do anything to lift her spirit. Noone is inclined to grow up according to other person expectations. Moreover she shot down his every try at a conversation (before S1). Therefore she is to blame for the whole situations. It doesn't matter if his actions could fix the situation. This has no direct consequence on blame factor. Could he make it better? Possibly. Is it partialy his fault for not trying enough? Absolutely not.

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Even setting aside my more all-encompassing interpretation of "selfishness", I think it's possible to care -and- be selfish. On the one hand, you want the individual to be happy/have a better life, on the other, you also want to be a part of it. It wouldn't reach the realm of "selfishness" by the more casual definition in my view unless "being in their life" also significantly diminished "their ability to be happy".

Ofcourse it's possible to be selfish and care. It's just that ultimately the well being of other person should preceed your own. The selfishness part will in this case be a factor which decides when you're giving up. But just because you believe you would bring happiness to someones life it doesn't mean you would and so you could possibly bring harm to this person life while not even knowing it.

Sometimes, that means taking a bit of a beating to get the other party to understand that "you mean no harm", until they're willing to listen to what you actually have to say.

You know, to me that sounds a little bit like a soft version of "You will come to love me!" which is little rapey to say the least

[ph4zr]

I've tried to trim this one down a bit, though I do feel some points might be less clear with the cuts.

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Okay, so maybe the trope doesn't quite fit the situation. Still, I think the quote about sums up the effect. XD

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Geez, dude, have mercy on an engineer. More substance, less words.

Ah, that. Yes. It is unfortunately my habit to say essentially the same thing in multiple ways because I don't believe my general manner of expression is understandable. Basically, if I only express something in one way, I figure the chance for misinterpretation is high, so I marginally increase the odds of getting my message across by expressing it differently. I've never been particularly good at communicating with the typical person, and am frequently misinterpreted IRL if I don't either phrase things at least 2-3 different ways or explain myself to death and back.

This previous example (i.e., the immediately preceding text) was partially intended as a parody. Partially.

Engineering, though? An admirable pursuit. I myself couldn't sit through thermodynamics for the life of me, and it was a requirement for all branches of engineering... In the end, I guess math is still the easiest subject.

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First, if something bad happens, someone is always at fault. ALWAYS.

If you are inclined toward either extreme of "all things being determined" or "nothing being determined", no one can ever be at fault—it is either impossible to intentionally avoid an event or impossible to intentionally force an event to occur. If you are somewhere in the middle, I fail to see how it can be possible that, for all possible events e, it is not the case that no one is at fault. Supposing every event could have a cause attributed solely to the actions of a singular individual or group of individuals, wouldn't all things be determined, thus leading to a contradiction that some things are not determined?

I imagine your statement was at least a little bit hyperbole. So I won't provide specific, more realistic examples for which I would consider no one to be at fault.

--snipped disclaimer-- You probably don't need me to explain my implicitly assumed definition of "fault", though I have one if need be.

And I think you still misunderstand me a bit (or maybe I'm misunderstanding you). Is Kirino behaviour in scope of human somewhat expected behaviour? Yes, it is. But that doesn't make it ok to act like this. If you act like that, you are a bitch.

This is probably where our perspectives are clashing. I recognize that she can be considered a bitch, and agree that her behavior is less than ideal. However, I don't particularly take issue with the bitchiness in her personality. Not because of wanting to "bone her"*, but simply because, given her anger/resentment/what-have-you, as well as how long she and her brother have been at odds, I consider her behavior "normal" enough** that it doesn't particularly bother me. From my perspective, I can see why she'd be hostile toward or skeptical of her brother, considering her general attitude toward and reaction to his change, and the fact that he's basically been a stranger in her life for the past several years.

*I wouldn't actually be able to stand that half of her personality IRL, or if personality isn't an issue for some, there are still the more obvious legal and ethical issues involved. And by "that half of her personality" I mean the "Kirino when around her brother and otaku friends", as contrasted with "Kirino at school and everywhere else".
**As in, not an extreme outlier.

As for the hitting, that I just attribute to it being anime. If I took issue with the "anime-typical" abusive behavior, there would be a lot of shows I simply couldn't watch—and in some cases I do take issue depending on how it's portrayed. With that in mind, the only thing I really consider is the verbal abuse, which to me is in line with the hostility/defensiveness/skepticism angle.

Plus, if we do consider physical abuse, Ayase takes the cake, IMO. "Isn't there something we always do when we part?" ... -shiver- And c'mon, handcuffs and fire? The first "S" is supposed to be "SAFE". ^^;

You know, society exists because people do not act like they real self (and I mean real real self). People are only fully themselves when they are drunk. And seeing how people often try to defend themselves by claiming that they were drunk when they did so and so points out it's not very smart to act on your every feeling.

I'd be inclined to disagree with the "only fully themselves when they are drunk" bit, if only because I think our inhibitions are also part of what defines us—if you take them away, if anything we are -less- ourselves. Going into that any further really would be severely off-topic, though, so I won't. But again: teenager — perhaps best colloquially defined as "an individual with a license/licence to treat everyone like crap and get away with it".

Brushed her off? He did answer her you know. If I recall it was something along "Because peacful life is the best". That is full answer.

I know he "answered" her, but it left a lot to be desired. It's a huge philosophy change, and his answer really only stated that his philosophy changed, seemingly in the face of everything he was passionate about before. Using a rather ridiculous example, it's a bit like claiming strawberry parfait is your favorite and suddenly turning down a free parfait and saying "I can't stand sweets". It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense when you basically lived for the stuff. A more sensitive S/O might be all "so... so you can't stand my bread!" ... or something, if strawberry parfaits were the same as crunchy rainbow starfish bread that tas—she's right behind me, isn't she?

Expecting someone to read your mind is wrong. [...] And btw. IIRC Kyouske never acted the way your second quote indicates.

It may be unwarranted to expect that, but she's also still just a kid. Also, while "mind-reading" to that extent is still more generally not a realistic expectation, there is (at least if my observations are correct) a general, and to some extent justified, expectation that members of society are versed enough in human interaction to recognize certain behaviors as being indicative of an underlying problem, even if the problem itself isn't immediately identifiable.

--snipped-- If I need to provide examples, something just might be wrong with the world.

As for Kyousuke, that's possibly my personal interpretation of his reactions earlier in the series. I don't really blame him for that, either. From his perspective, she was being bitchy for no reason at all, and he was really too dense the whole time to figure out what caused it. Based on his general demeanor and interactions with his sister before he started distancing himself, I honestly think that if he had managed to realize that his change in personality was causing her hostility he would have addressed it.

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But it's not like I assigned blame just like that. I first bothered to understand why both of them acted the way they acted. Upon this understanding I judged Kirino actions to not be appropriate as reasons for her behaviour are not good enough. Kyouske never did anything wrong to her and just because she decided she doesn't like grown up Kyouske, that doesn't incline him to do anything to lift her spirit. Noone is inclined to grow up according to other person expectations. Moreover she shot down his every try at a conversation (before S1). Therefore she is to blame for the whole situations. It doesn't matter if his actions could fix the situation. This has no direct consequence on blame factor. Could he make it better? Possibly. Is it partialy his fault for not trying enough? Absolutely not.

I probably should have specified that I was speaking more generally with regard to blame casting. It wasn't an attempt to accuse you specifically of blaming Kirino with no reason. Additionally, and I don't think I've bothered to make this much clear as of yet, mis-conveyed or not, I don't specifically consider your choice of blaming Kirino to be "invalid", I simply do not agree with it, and additionally don't think my own reasons for doing so are clear/understood.

It would be very difficult for me to come up with a solid argument, with which I would also be satisfied, to invalidate any particular individual's or group's opinions regarding blame casting in such a situation. To do so I would need to craft an argument that relies not on subjective values in order to reject similarly subjective values without being hypocritical. The best I can do is present my own perspective on the matter, and point out that I don't think blame casting in such a situation has any practical value in improving the relationship.

--snipped-- philosophy regarding practicality of blame casting in general mostly established.

Also, I'm not blaming Kyousuke, at least not intentionally if it appears so. I think his extreme denseness made the problem go on longer than it needed to, but I don't really think it's "his fault", either. Yes I pointed out that I think his answer was unsatisfactory and that his general attitude toward the situation (at least as I interpreted it) didn't help matters, but I don't honestly think there was anything he could have "chosen" to do differently. His personality, et cetera, made it extremely unlikely that he would figure it out on his own. In other words, it's not like he could just suddenly decide to get a clue and realize that his sister was acting that way because of whatever inner-angst she had regarding his change and the general existing situation.

I -do- think it's ridiculous that he could be -that- dense, especially considering her comments when she called him on it, and that annoyed me, yes. But it's not like one can really fault someone for their general or social intelligence, et cetera—barring willful ignorance, that is. But "willful ignorance" is hard to prove, and it's not always really an "intelligence" thing so much as an "I'm smart enough to know better, but I just don't care" thing.

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Ofcourse it's possible to be selfish and care. It's just that ultimately the well being of other person should preceed your own. The selfishness part will in this case be a factor which decides when you're giving up. But just because you believe you would bring happiness to someones life it doesn't mean you would and so you could possibly bring harm to this person life while not even knowing it.

I'm not really sure how what I said is inconsistent with that? I didn't attempt to make the claim that the individual wanting to be involved in the other person's life would know one way or another whether their involvement would be to net negative or net positive effect. Granted, in that sense, selfishness would be difficult to determine yourself without also being able to tell beforehand what effect your actions would have.

In address of that, I might propose the criteria for "selfishness" in that case to be restated as "continuing to act as such when such actions are either likely to cause such a negative net effect, may potentially have negative net effect with potential for a postive outcome not being justified by the actual expected payoff (outcome_probability*outcome_value), or if, upon action, the effects have been determined to have such negative effect."

Basically: (1) if it's *likely* you're going to screw them over, don't do it; (2) if it's possible they'll be screwed worse than they'd be helped, and the chances for either don't balance out properly, don't do it; (3) if it's established that you're being an ass by acting the way you are, STOP doing it. If found in violation of the aforementioned, you're a selfish bastard.

There are probably all manner of problems, exceptions, loopholes, et cetera, with those definitions.

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And that particular reading is a rather unfortunate misinterpretation.

Sometimes, that means taking a bit of a beating to get the other party to understand that "you mean no harm", until they're willing to listen to what you actually have to say.

You know, to me that sounds a little bit like a soft version of "You will come to love me!" which is little rapey to say the least

... Methinks perhaps it's not clear who is who in such a hypothetical scenario? The person trying to establish that they are not harmful is the one taking the proverbial beating, in order to satisfy the person doing the beating enough to convince them of such.

Your interpretation (as I understand it) would be as if the person trying to establish that they are harmless were continuing to prod the "convincee" lightly while saying "see, I'm not hitting you very hard, you can trust me! Now take off your clothes. /rapeface/"

In my version, at least as it was intended, the goal is to get the "convincee" to accept that your intentions are not harmful by allowing them to put you through some series of tests, so to speak. Presumably, if you wanted to do them harm you wouldn't bother trying to gain their trust—unless of course you wanted to do them more serious harm which first required their trust. By accepting their hostility and refusing to react to it, a response that seems at least unlikely from a hostile party with intent to harm, you hopefully succeed in convincing the other party that you aren't looking for a fight.

I'm not really sure how that bears any resemblance to what you described?

I was under the impression that such an approach was fairly common in attempting to gain people's trust, in normal society as opposed to just in criminal endeavors.

Anyway, not sure if that was just a joke or a serious remark, but I figured it'd be best to clarify that sort of thing.

Anyway, I personally have no particular issue going on about this indefinitely other than time consumption vs. enjoyment, but I suspect it probably puts a bit of a damper on any other conversation. At this point it's fairly clear that we disagree, and I think we've also made our positions clear enough to establish that we are unlikely to come to a mutual understanding, as well as clear enough for most observers to either mostly agree or mostly disagree with either side.

I mean, it -could- just be that the show is over, and interest in posting about it has waned, but it seems more likely that the fact that we're pretty much the only ones posting at the moment is... well... indicative of something or other. Admittedly, most of that probably has to do with my walls trying the patience of anyone attempting to follow the thread, but if we keep going my walls will likely only get longer as more sub-threads are spawned in the exchange.

If you're so inclined, you are more than welcome to consider this "tucking tail and running", though I would disagree. Mainly it's concern for the thread, the entertainment value of the debate no longer justifying the time investment compared to multiple, shorter jabs or comments about the show/characters, et cetera. My "PR instinct" is nowhere near as well defined as a certain prince, and I've few qualms about abruptly terminating a process if its upkeep isn't worth the effects it provides.