Author Topic: Why is cross dressing and gender bender so mainstream?  (Read 1600 times)

Offline Prideless

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Why is cross dressing and gender bender so mainstream?
« on: April 05, 2012, 04:04:54 AM »
I dont know if I used the right word when I said mainstream but ive seen anime and manga often enough to where cross dressing males and gender bender stuff happens quite often.

I would like to know if this is an actual cultural thing in Japan where it is positively received more so than other countries?

If so Id like to know the origin or how did Japan become influenced so much to where society(if true) males in it actually like to cross dress and enjoy gender bender stuff.

I dont have anything to much against it, but its hard for me to comprehend how is it funny or interesting when a guy transforms to a girl or when guys love to wear girls clothing.

forgive me ignorance and please enlighten me. i am quite curious. i am not interested in starting a debate.

thanks for reading.

Offline datora

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Re: Why is cross dressing and gender bender so mainstream?
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2012, 04:43:53 AM »
.
Anime/manga is a pretty small subset of Japanese culture.  Gender-bending & crossdressing within that sub-culture shows up regularly, most often for "crazy" comedic relief and such (and, largely because it is so "taboo"), but is still a fairly minor micro-culture within that sub-culture.  So, characterizing it as "mainstream" or somehow prevalent in Japanese culture at large is stretching it quite a bit.  Probably no more so than in most modern cultures.

Overall, your comments are probably more reflective of you seeing Japan through anime glasses.  It would be fairly similar to someone from another country looking at San Francisco gay culture, especially a few gay pride parades, and concluding that all of America is like that.


As a side note: girls dressing up as guys is pretty hot.   :P ;D  Your viewpoint of crossdressing and gender-bending as being only guys masquerading as girls is a bit of a tell.  ;)

And BTW -- this probably is a topic that should be in the Lounge.
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Offline xfreidax

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Re: Why is cross dressing and gender bender so mainstream?
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2012, 05:15:17 AM »
If you look at Japan's Visual Kei subculture, you can see the real life version of this particular pop-culture phenomenon. Granted it's not strictly cross dressing but they definitely redefine gender norms with androgynous looks.

What does this say about Japanese acceptance of cross dressing? I dunno, maybe not much. But aspects of this practice is seen in their popular culture. If you look even deeper, at their traditional theater arts, it was normal for men to play female roles. Like in Kabuki for example. I believe the art is still practiced this way today, men performing as females. This same practice and tradition is also seen in certain forms of Chinese theater/opera. So it has deep roots in East Asian culture.

Offline logos

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Re: Why is cross dressing and gender bender so mainstream?
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2012, 05:29:28 AM »
If you look even deeper, at their traditional theater arts, it was normal for men to play female roles. Like in Kabuki for example. I believe the art is still practiced this way today, men performing as females. This same practice and tradition is also seen in certain forms of Chinese theater/opera. So it has deep roots in East Asian culture.
That's no different than in english culture...and crossdressing is still "frowned upon" by society

As for genderbender/crossdressing in anime, I don't understand why it's used so often as a comedic element, but it's not like its something exclusive to japanese anime, go turn on the TV I doubt it matters where you live, find a sitcom and I'm sure at least a few of the episodes in that series have an element of crossdressing.


Offline SeventyX7

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Re: Why is cross dressing and gender bender so mainstream?
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2012, 05:39:18 AM »
Crossdressing as a comedic element is common in the west as well.  Britain was all about it a couple decades ago (I don't think they are so-much now).

Crossdressing does seem much more sexualized in the anime/manga culture than anywhere else irl I've ever seen, though.

Prunus Girl, Maria Holic, Happiness!, Baka to Test...

Shit, there's a magazine dedicated to sexualization of traps (Waai) and anthology comics about it too.

Offline xfreidax

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Re: Why is cross dressing and gender bender so mainstream?
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2012, 05:45:38 AM »
If you look even deeper, at their traditional theater arts, it was normal for men to play female roles. Like in Kabuki for example. I believe the art is still practiced this way today, men performing as females. This same practice and tradition is also seen in certain forms of Chinese theater/opera. So it has deep roots in East Asian culture.
That's no different than in english culture...and crossdressing is still "frowned upon" by society

Really? I did not know this is common in English theater. Men playing women, often in an erotic or sexualised context.  :o

Offline vuzedome

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Re: Why is cross dressing and gender bender so mainstream?
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2012, 06:00:49 AM »
Definitely not what you think it is. Crossdressing is still unacceptable, even in Japan.
In the adult industry as well, it's still sort of niche, not everybody likes the idea.
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Offline abc cuz

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Re: Why is cross dressing and gender bender so mainstream?
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2012, 07:44:46 AM »
i'm not sure what the norm is in japan, but i know japanese guys and girls can look very alike so they can get away with cross-dressing most of the time as actually being believed to be that gender. that's where 'trap' comes from. i don't know, maybe because its easier in japan they exploit it more for comedy in their anime.
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Offline logos

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Re: Why is cross dressing and gender bender so mainstream?
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2012, 08:19:08 AM »
If you look even deeper, at their traditional theater arts, it was normal for men to play female roles. Like in Kabuki for example. I believe the art is still practiced this way today, men performing as females. This same practice and tradition is also seen in certain forms of Chinese theater/opera. So it has deep roots in East Asian culture.
That's no different than in english culture...and crossdressing is still "frowned upon" by society
often in an erotic or sexualised context.  :o
...since when does ANY "traditional theatre" display "erotic or sexualized content"?
In england up until ~1700ad women weren't allowed to perform in theatre..so you know thats like a long time that men were performing as females...

...sorry bout the offtopic


Offline rostheferret

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Re: Why is cross dressing and gender bender so mainstream?
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2012, 09:16:43 AM »
As was said, in Shakespearean theatre right up to the 18th Century or so, women were not allowed to perform and so were instead played by young boys whose voices hadn't broken yet. I believe much the same was traditionally true for Japanese, though I wouldn't claim to have the foggiest of the details. I'm pretty sure it has roots - similar to British theater - that date back to the Edo period, used in a similar manner; all male troubadour's using young boys to play the female roles. I also know of "Kabuki" theatre which was a sort of interpretive dance (I think) and was performed entirely by females, even if the character was male.

As for the influence from V-Kei, that has roots in Glam Rock; the likes of KISS and Motley Crue which featured excessive make-up and feminine hair. If you look at the early V-Kei artists, X Japan, Malice Mizer and the like, you can see it's largely a continuation of this aesthetic style, which whilst fell out of favour in the West grew in popularity in Japan. In an effort to constantly 'up' the previous looks, excessive make-up and feminine hair gradually became cross-dressing, though it does help that something about their body shapes tend to make them more adept at it. I think there's also something of a rebellious attitude towards those who practice it in this context; that it is taboo and not the norm making it useful in sparking controversy. All that said, I do think you're either overstating how common it is in mainstream society, with modern practice being closer to 'metrosexuality' which is hardly uncommon in other countries, and/or you're subconsciously gravitating towards manga/animé featuring traps.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 09:21:39 AM by rostheferret »

Offline xfreidax

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Re: Why is cross dressing and gender bender so mainstream?
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2012, 10:32:25 AM »
If you look even deeper, at their traditional theater arts, it was normal for men to play female roles. Like in Kabuki for example. I believe the art is still practiced this way today, men performing as females. This same practice and tradition is also seen in certain forms of Chinese theater/opera. So it has deep roots in East Asian culture.
That's no different than in english culture...and crossdressing is still "frowned upon" by society
often in an erotic or sexualised context.  :o
...since when does ANY "traditional theatre" display "erotic or sexualized content"?
In england up until ~1700ad women weren't allowed to perform in theatre..so you know thats like a long time that men were performing as females...

...sorry bout the offtopic

Kabuki in its earliest form was often erotic and performed by all female troupes as Rostheferret pointed out. Even when they banned women from the art, it still retained the eroticism. Only now, it was men dressed as women in these titillating performances.

In modern times, kabuki actors are still celebrated for the feminism they display and quite a few of them even cross over into film and television, where they continue to play women.

In Bejing opera, which is a dramatic art form, men play female characters. Although not overtly erotic, Beijing opera performances can exude a certain degree of sensuality. In Cantonese opera, a very similar art form, it's not uncommon to find women performing male characters and males performing female characters.

You see the big difference here is, while in Shakespearean theatre, the all male troupe is a thing of the past. In Kabuki and some forms of Chinese opera, gender bending has become tradition and is still prevalent. Noh theatre I believe is also practiced predominantly by men, with males playing the female roles even to this day.

Present day kabuki.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABV86sCZ0FQ
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 12:57:10 PM by xfreidax »

Offline Saras

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Re: Why is cross dressing and gender bender so mainstream?
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2012, 12:43:50 PM »
Anime is very sexualised by default, all of it. Well, maybe not Doreamon, but still most of it is full of the stuff most normal westerners would at least lift an eyebrow at. And most trannies offer a good joke in "being a trap" and all that.

Offline 1pwn3djo0h

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Re: Why is cross dressing and gender bender so mainstream?
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2012, 04:30:07 PM »
You see those sort of stuffs frequently, that it makes you dizzy because the Japanese thinks it's awzm.

. . . and, it's for the lulz. Forget about everything but not teh lulz.

I remember that "trap," Miyavi kissing another guy--his name's Daigo, if memory serves me right--because he thought it was cool. He kissed almost every guy in his band because he thought it was . . . y'know, cool. LOL.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 04:32:48 PM by 1pwn3djo0h »

Offline kadatherion

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Re: Why is cross dressing and gender bender so mainstream?
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2012, 08:25:26 PM »
Pretty much what has been said before, though it has to be noted there's a not so thin difference between what happened in Shakespearean theater and Kabuki: while in the former the obligation of using young boys for the female parts was mainly just that, a matter of fact, in Kabuki men acting in female roles quickly became an icon, a refined form of art in itself, a philosophy per se, in a typically Japanese fashion. Much like any other form of art, it often was a family legacy (in the Japanese meaning, as even an apprentice would inherit the master's name as if he was his son), it had specific rules and symbolism, and it was regarded as more feminine than a real woman could ever be: the common rationale was that a woman could never be that graceful. I know it sounds paradoxical, but that's how very often the arts were perceived in Japanese traditional culture.

That being said, I'd dare to assume in the Japanese collective thought the cross-dressing male can still be perceived as relatively less of a taboo than we do. The fact Japanese young males can also often pull it off better than us, as they are at times genetically more inclined to have quite the androgynous look, maybe also helps, for two reasons: to us it tends to look "gross" as it's usually evident we are looking at a male dressed as a woman (and as such it is perceived as "out of place"), to their eyes it can be seen as less "disturbing" as it can be aesthetically consistent; for that same reason, it is also slightly more believable that a crossdressing male could really be mistaken for a female, so it's easier to pull the stereotype in an animated fiction without endangering too much the viewer's suspension of disbelief.


The opposite, a female crossdressing as a male, I'd say is found interesting for the same reasons we do: nowadays it is often perceived as hot as it represents a strong symbolism of the female emancipation. As anything that is culturally "unusual", that is a break from the previous canon of gender role, it can spark a so called "fetish". In Japan - where various fetishes are also particularly taken to the extremes - it can also have an even stronger punch, as the role of the female was - and to an extent still is - especially submissive.

To me, for instance, a woman wearing a necktie looks quite suggestive, sexy, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. If I were born in Japan, where the icon of the "ideal" woman in their imaginary still tends to be that of the husband's meek and passive servant (fun fact: you know how goshujin-sama means "master", right? It's not a coincidence that they have that western maid fetish, after all. Anyway, literally, goshujin means husband), I would probably perceive it as even more suggestive.


There surely are also many other reasons why they often find this cliché interesting to use even not necessarily for purely comedic purposes (though those are nowadays the easiest to pull, of course). For instance, let's not forget how several of their shinto deities were ambiguously sexualized, like Inari. It all adds, little by little, into building a certain collective unconscious, Jung would say. While it is a "taboo" there too, and it is played with as such, there's also the fact it isn't a taboo for the same reasons as ours: ours originate from religious dogma, as any form of gender bender is considered a sin against God and is a theme extremely prevalent in the scriptures. Theirs is more rooted in simpler social customs, so it's also easier to play with in a lighthearted spirit (that could also be why they tend to go heavier on it than us in their humor: as the taboo is less "severe" it has to be broken more blatantly to be as irreverent; the comparison between "our" glam rock and their visual kei mentioned before is quite fitting).


Still all these differences are relatively minor, imho, and I'm not even taking into consideration how much the post-war era of newborn cultural contamination they undergone has had an influence on the matter.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 08:44:54 PM by kadatherion »

Offline kitamesume

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Re: Why is cross dressing and gender bender so mainstream?
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2012, 09:55:52 PM »
actually crossdressing doesn't really have that much negative impact in society, if you could pass off as the opposite gender then who would care, maybe nazis?

the ones that society hates are pub gays that crossdresses half-assed.

oh and females cross-dressing as males NEVER gets the negative treatment, some even gets boners.

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Offline megido-rev.M

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Re: Why is cross dressing and gender bender so mainstream?
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2012, 03:42:59 AM »
Cross-dressing is [usually] unexpected, so it is in itself generally compatible with comedy and particular kinds of theatrics.

Whatever views the general public has on this does not concern me. The only things I find relevant when it comes to cross-dressing is the purpose of it (cross) and how well it is done (dressing). I believe the gender-bending part would be implied. :P