Taxmageddon, the $500 Billion Tax Increase Coming in January

[Burkingam]

I do not want to hear about your Tuition hike. $1,625 is a 75% increase are you kidding me? Quit your bitching, honestly. I pay around $5,400 dollars in tuition per year, and you don't see us acting like it's the Arab fucking Spring now do you?

I already told you that the fact your government is shitty is no excuse for my government being shitty. Not to mention the obvious double standard. You whine about paying taxes when many states pay have way higher taxes than you will ever see.

And if you had a backbone, you would be "acting like it's the Arab fucking Spring" for education accessibility. Contrarily to you, I happen to think that protecting our rights is something important. Apparently you think nobody should complain when a government makes retarded decisions. This mentality is that of a police state not a democracy. In a democracy, people are allowed to make demonstrations and go on strike without fearing undiscriminating brutality from the police force.

As for the $1,625 tuition hike, it's the direct follow up from another hike of 600$ in 2007. Together it's a 127% tuition hike made under this government.

[jaybug]

There is no excuse for the shitty Canadian government. lol

To say it's the Republican's fault for the current gas tax system is ludicrous. But no more ludicrous than blaming Democrats. It took bi-partisan assholeness to get 'r done.

Burk, so are you planning to get a job killing baby seals after college is over and you cannot get a job? That way you don't have to live with your parents??? It's still legal to kill baby harp seals in Canada right? Someone was asking me the other day.

Oregon just made public universities have another tuition hike just this past week.

Was Oprah Winfrey or Bill Gates rich 30 years ago? No. We don't eat the rich, we recycle them.

[Burkingam]

We are talking about our provincial governments not the federal.

You're the only one talking about gas tax right now and I think it's actually a pretty good thing to tax.

No, I don't intend to and I'm not worried about finding a job. My mother doesn't live in the same province as me. Yes it is.

Sucks for you. What are you gonna do about it? Brag proudly about how your state doesn't value education?

Your point?

[metro.]

Oh this is degenerating quickly.

My point was not to insult you, as it seems I did that. Please go on raging in the streets, I'm sure you'll get what you want if you yell loud enough, isn't that how politics works?
I'm serious.

When did I whine about taxes? Or was that not directed at me? I don't actually remember, I might have.

And if I had backbone? I'm sorry, but personal attacks are not needed, I'd much rather it didn't get to this. Insult my alleged lack of spine all you would like, but I simply view the world differently. Universities need to actually, you know, make money, else they would go out of business, housing and feeding and teaching thousands, or hundreds of thousands of kids is not small task. Accessible education is all well and good, but if the Universities start closing down, ANY post secondary education would be nice. If you want schools to start, what, not trying to make money? They're a business just like most things. They aim to maximize profit while still abiding the laws and retaining some sort of moral standard. Our government, hell many governments, at this stage in time are in heavy debt, and adding more to it would be detrimental to the future, just as much as having "inaccessible education", a term mind you, that's yet to be defined.

Post secondary Education is a a choice and that should be remembered, while High School is paid for, it will cost more to get a higher, and better education. Is it worth it? That's a personal decision that must be made, giving up working for those however many years it takes, is depressing, and will end you up in debt. I fully expect to be, at least, $80,000 in debt by the time I finish my Bachelors degree, and that's not counting anything I intend to do after, be it pursing a MSc or a JD. Regardless, it is an investment in my future, our future, and it's a costly one. But the benefits to be reaped can be huge. I don't live a lavish life now, nor have I ever, and I work as much as I can to make some of that money back, but I know, and really have always known, I will be leaving University with debt. I understand it, fear it, and have to deal with it.

Would I like for my school to be paid for, or at least cheaper? Heck yes. Is it a realistic possibility? Most likely not.

That's my overly drawn out thoughts.

[Ixarku]

I fully expect to be, at least, $80,000 in debt by the time I finish my Bachelors degree

Fuck. That.  Seriously.  I really question whether a Bachelors is worth that kind of money.  I guess it depends on your field, whether you come from a family with money, and if you're going for a higher level degree after that.  In my day, I attended a local community college for $33 a credit hour.  Books cost me about $300 for a semester.  I had 2 scholarships, so my AA degree wound up being free, and I was able to work part time for those couple of years and still did well in school.  Turns out that absolutely nothing I learned in college has had any direct bearing whatsoever on my later career (which is of course entirely due to my choices in life), but having that AA got my foot in the door for a few interviews.  Not to mention that the college experience itself was an important step on my transition into becoming an adult.  Now I've got 13 years of experience in my field and a certification to go with it, so the degree itself is near to useless when the time comes to job hunt again. 
 
<Shrug> I guess my point is that, while education is important, I think it's sad when students have to near-bankrupt themselves to achieve it.  It's an awfully huge risk to accumulate that much debt, but I guess it's also an equally big incentive to succeed.

[Nikkoru]

I don't even know how much my tuition would've cost had I payed for it. Far less than 80 thousand after taxes I think. Bought my books second hand or stole'em from the internet, supplemented my living expenses with roommates and a local discount farmer's market. Worked off and on, mostly for my uncle, during the summer - so I had the money for my post-grad where I lived with my parents.

Everything was sunshine and lollypops as far I was concerned.

Post secondary education isn't a choice as far as society is concerned, you need skilled labourers. Or see how things work without doctors, nurses, engineers, teachers, lawyers, trade workers of all stripes, and so on. Thus have every reason to keep the expense of education realistic as humanly possible, which Quebec has done better than the rest of the country in part because they haven't marginalized their youth. Universities, colleges, and trade schools are like hospitals. While private, they serve a straightforward social need to which their profit is not one.

It costs tax money? What do you think I'll be paying my whole life with the career my education was directly responsible for acquiring?

I would choose a more profitable field if I had to spend the next decade digging out of debt, which for me would mean leaving Canada -- or at least Ontario.

[Burkingam]

When did I whine about taxes? Or was that not directed at me? I don't actually remember, I might have.

Sorry, I take it back. I didn't realize I was putting words in your mouth.

Universities need to actually, you know, make money, else they would go out of business, housing and feeding and teaching thousands, or hundreds of thousands of kids is not small task. Accessible education is all well and good, but if the Universities start closing down, ANY post secondary education would be nice. If you want schools to start, what, not trying to make money? They're a business just like most things. They aim to maximize profit while still abiding the laws and retaining some sort of moral standard.

Universities in my province are not businesses nor do I think they should be, they are publicly owned institutions. All of them.

Our government, hell many governments, at this stage in time are in heavy debt, and adding more to it would be detrimental to the future, just as much as having "inaccessible education", a term mind you, that's yet to be defined.

Apparently my government doesn't lack as much money as it would like us to believe because it's investing 80 billions in a project in our most scarcely populated region without any guaranty that we are gonna get this money back.

Post secondary Education is a a choice and that should be remembered, while High School is paid for, it will cost more to get a higher, and better education. Is it worth it? That's a personal decision that must be made, giving up working for those however many years it takes, is depressing, and will end you up in debt. I fully expect to be, at least, $80,000 in debt by the time I finish my Bachelors degree, and that's not counting anything I intend to do after, be it pursing a MSc or a JD. Regardless, it is an investment in my future, our future, and it's a costly one. But the benefits to be reaped can be huge. I don't live a lavish life now, nor have I ever, and I work as much as I can to make some of that money back, but I know, and really have always known, I will be leaving University with debt. I understand it, fear it, and have to deal with it.

Educated people make more money and pay more taxes than uneducated people. This investment is worthwhile for a society just as much as for an individual. Giving the the youth the choice between starting their lives with 80,000$ of debts or without any diploma is neither responsible nor solitary nor economical nor fair. Making sure that education is cheap and accessible for everyone is the easiest most effective way to fight social segregation. Educated people are much more likely to open businesses and to create jobs than uneducated peoples, and the jobs they create also tend to pay a lot better. Ignorance is a lot more expensive than education.

Would I like for my school to be paid for, or at least cheaper? Heck yes. Is it a realistic possibility? Most likely not.

I don't see why it wouldn't be possible. There are several countries who do it right now as we speak. There is nothing esoteric about it.

[Bob2004]

Just posting to say: I completely, 100%, entirely, and wholely agree with burkingham on pretty much that entire post. I couldn't have put it better myself.

It is absolutely a realistic possibility for higher education to be subsidised by the US government, even if paying for it entirely might not be (in the short to medium term, anyway - in the long term it definitely is) realisticly possible. Many, many other countries fund higher education to a large extent, which ensures people don't have to pay such ridiculous amounts. I only pay £3625 a year in tuition fees, for example, and that + living expenses is almost entirely covered by grants and special student loans from the government. If I was from a poorer household, I'd get enough money to pay for everything, and more of it would be made up of grants rather than loans.

I will end up coming out of uni with some debt, but nowhere near as much as your average American would, and what debt I do end up with will be student loans which are no burden at all. And more importantly, I know that people get to attend the country's top universities because they're the most intelligent, and the most deserving of that opportunity - not because they have the richest parents.

[Burkingam]

I couldn't have put it better myself.

lol. I wish. I'm sure you can beat my sloppy English any day of the week.

[jaybug]

Metro, any mention of raising taxes translates into whining to the ears of our northern fringe friends.

Look, it won't kill you to grow a backbone. Might hurt an awful lot however. Better than getting a surgical implant of one.

80k in debt for school. Do you ever hope to be able to buy a house? Retire? Have kids? I was reading about how senior citizens and those nearing retirement are getting hit hard over finalcial aid. Either they spent a ton of money and didn't get a good enough paying job, or they are on the hook for their kids/grandkids for co-signing the school loans.

I don't know if my wife will pay off her loans, and those were for not for college, but for a trade in the medical field. Good thing she earns more per hour than I do.

The university I work for is state owned, but only about 8% state funded. The rest is tuition and grants and whatever way they can generate income. I might have to pay an extra 8 bucks per class. We'll find out.

I think it is a bad idea to have everyone go to college. Everyone goes to high school now don't they? How good is that working out for a large percentage of Americans? Or are they stuck in a drop out factory? I bet the kind of education everyone will get will make the education student athletes of football factory schools with low academic standards look real good.

Businesses seem to be preparing for taxmageddon, they are not buying or hiring anymore according to the latest statistics. And over 500k left the labor force in April. So that is why the unemployment rate went down.

[metro.]

Just to clear it up jaybug, I'm from Canada. I don't think that you know this.

And goodness what the hell do you think, you should walk out of University with no debt? My god people. I never said it was for everyone, nor do I think it should be. I think everyone should have the choice to go to school, and realistically, if you're willing to put yourself in a big enough hole, you do...to a point. I'm gunna get flak for that.

Nikkoru, I agree that society, as a whole, would be better off if everyone was educated. It would...equitable? I believe that's a good word for it. However, it's not for everyone, some would resent the institution so much that it would probably not be worth it. And of course, then we'd get the "omg the government is evil!" attacks all over the country, instead of just in Quebec. Which honestly, is what this boils down to. Fighting for your rights is only noble if there's someone suppressing them, otherwise you're just crazy.

Burk, I think we agree on some points, but just go about it in different ways. I do agree, it's a big burden to bear. I'm utterly and completely terrified of it not being worth the money and time investment. I spend hours in a state of catatonic fear. However, all I can, well all anyone can do, is to is take what looks like the best option right now. To me, it looks like education at this moment, and I have to trust I'm not terribly wrong. But as...Ixarku? said, it's a big risk, but there is an equally large reward. Or something to that affect. Also, which countries do you speak of? I know that some of the Scandinavian countries do, Denmark jumps to mind. However, keep in mind they are typically Socialist countries, unless you can give me a different example, I'd be more the willing to look at it with an open mind. While Socialism is honestly, what will probably be the governing policy of the future, it's not fully in Canada just yet.

I don't know who it was, but someone mentioned something about having wealthy parents and that allowing you to go to school. I know this isn't true for most people, but to put it bluntly, my parents are wealthy enough to make me a silver spoon and not have to worry overmuch about the investment. However, that's not the case, I'm paying my way, and putting myself in tremendous debt by doing so. However, due to my parents wealth, I am cut off from any, yes, any, kind of grant from the University or the government. Yet I do not spite them for it, nor should you assume that wealth breeds the same kind of vile creatures you assume. I'm a whole new breed of vile and arrogance, born not out of wealth, but many many other things.

Esoteric, nice word. Honestly, I forgot how good it was.

[Burkingam]

Burk, I think we agree on some points, but just go about it in different ways. I do agree, it's a big burden to bear. I'm utterly and completely terrified of it not being worth the money and time investment. I spend hours in a state of catatonic fear. However, all I can, well all anyone can do, is to is take what looks like the best option right now. To me, it looks like education at this moment, and I have to trust I'm not terribly wrong. But as...Ixarku? said, it's a big risk, but there is an equally large reward. Or something to that affect. Also, which countries do you speak of? I know that some of the Scandinavian countries do, Denmark jumps to mind. However, keep in mind they are typically Socialist countries, unless you can give me a different example, I'd be more the willing to look at it with an open mind. While Socialism is honestly, what will probably be the governing policy of the future, it's not fully in Canada just yet.

I don't know who it was, but someone mentioned something about having wealthy parents and that allowing you to go to school. I know this isn't true for most people, but to put it bluntly, my parents are wealthy enough to make me a silver spoon and not have to worry overmuch about the investment. However, that's not the case, I'm paying my way, and putting myself in tremendous debt by doing so. However, due to my parents wealth, I am cut off from any, yes, any, kind of grant from the University or the government. Yet I do not spite them for it, nor should you assume that wealth breeds the same kind of vile creatures you assume. I'm a whole new breed of vile and arrogance, born not out of wealth, but many many other things.

For the record I don't believe, contrarily to some other lefties, that being rich is equivalent, or has anything to do with being evil. I do, on another hand, think it means being more able to pay which is why I think it's fair for rich people to pay more taxes. It's nothing personal. It's just that taxes need to be paid by somebody and it's not gonna hurt them as much as it would if we took the same sum from poor people.

(click to show/hide)

    Algeria
    Argentina
    Barbados
    Brazil
    Belgium
    China
    Croatia
    Cuba
    Denmark
    Finland
    France
    Greece
    Germany
    Hungary
    Iran
    Japan
    Kenya
    Malta
    Mauritius
    Morocco
    Norway
    Russia
    Scotland
    Slovakia
    Sri Lanka
    Sweden
    Trinidad and Tobago
    Tunisia
    Brunei
    Turkey
    Oman
    Saudi Arabia
    Uruguay

The list is provided without sources and I'm fairly sure it's not true for japan at least, but I know it's true in Germany in most regions, and arguably in France(in reality it's more like 150€ to 700€ but lets say it's close enough).

Also, saying Scandinavian countries don't count because they are socialist is not an argument. Socialism is not an economic system, it's a wide range of economic systems. Scandinavians are social-democrates, and social democracy can be defined as "this kind of socialism than can be established in a liberal economy with reforms alone avoiding a revolution". I'm serious that what social democracy means. Making education free  is just one of those reforms. Free education is part of what makes them social democrat. Hence, when you say, that Scandinavian countries don't count because they are socialist and only capitalist states count, it's a bit like I told you that Bob doesn't smoke and he's right happy about it and you responded "yeah but Bob is a non-smoker so it doesn't count. Now show me a smoker who doesn't smoke and we will talk".

[metro.]

I disagree,quite strongly. For example, from your list, let's pluck Denmark as we talked about it before. They, according to Wiki have a progressive tax system.

minimum tax rate for adults is 42% scaling to over 60%

Comparing this to this information about taxes for Canada provided by the Canadian government. The pertinent information is that our progressive tax ranges from, let's go with your province, Quebec, from 16%-24%. I could be reading this wrong.I butchered that sentence

I could be reading those pages wrong, if I am please inform me, I'm currently dead tired so it's highly possible.
This is example based of course, which lends little weight to my argument if you ask many people. I hope you're not one of them, that would be disheartening. But, the point is, they pay higher taxes. This, in turn, allows them more flexibility in how they wish to distribute that money, paying off debts, pensions, schooling, etc.

Also, that Wiki list is super sketch.

[Burkingam]

Remember than scandinavian countries are not federalist, meaning they only have one government paying for everything. The numbers you gave were the provincial taxes but you also need to add the federal taxes of 15% to 29% to the mix to cover federal services. As for what free education would cost we already know that. Even the minister of education has admited it would only cost about 0,5 billions/year to eliminate tuition fees which isn't much considering our provincial budget is $70.9billion.

And it's not like there are not better places we could get money. I already told you the government is burning our money in a 80billion dollars project, but even if you don't count it, the electricity in Quebec is distributed by Hydro-quebec, a state-owned company with one of the lowest rate in the world, about 6 cent/KWH when all our direct neighbors pay over 10 cent/KWH, and a free education would only cost about 0,4cent/KWH if everyone payed it with their electrical bill.

[Nikkoru]

Personal state and local taxes top out at 51% in Denmark, but comparing tax systems has some general drawbacks when you account for sales taxes, deductions, corporate tax rates, ect. -- and other forms of revenue enhancement like publicly owned businesses.

Nikkoru, I agree that society, as a whole, would be better off if everyone was educated. It would...equitable? I believe that's a good word for it. However, it's not for everyone, some would resent the institution so much that it would probably not be worth it. And of course, then we'd get the "omg the government is evil!" attacks all over the country, instead of just in Quebec. Which honestly, is what this boils down to. Fighting for your rights is only noble if there's someone suppressing them, otherwise you're just crazy.

Yes, obviously, education betters society when enriching the lowly masses -- but I'm not getting into abstracts of egalitarian angst or ivory tower elitism --  it's a simple fact that a Bachelors degree barely meets the minimum of what most employers want or what most skilled labour requires. It's been decades since a GED + connections down at the local industrial centre could mean 5 decades of work and a comfortable retirement with a handsome pension. That's simply the labour market from here 'till doomsday globally, which suits employers perfectly fine. What's more the baby boomers are fleeing their jobs while the fleeing is good, and we aren't producing enough people to replace them even with increased immigration.

So, in short, Canada (and every province therein) needs kids to get into colleges, universities, and trade schools -- adults too, seeking advancement. It's difficult to condemn subsidizing education when we're in a globalized information age. Hell, my parent's education was fully subsidized one way or another, my father's one of the tiny minority of physicians who are neurologists in Ontario -- his wait times are in the range of months. Even if you're a smart cookie, or perhaps especially if you're a smart cookie, it's easier to use your intelligence on something cheaper and more profitable than something socially essential but inordinately expensive, difficult, and time consuming to enter into.  Even if his education isn't for everyone, what he does with it is. Same with my mother, who turned down more profitable positions to be a Crown attorney... which isn't exactly an unpaid position but not exactly what she could be making elsewhere and certainly not inconsequential to society. Cutting public funding and letting tuition rise ever-higher as the trends are taking it will for a short-term satisfy momentary budget concerns, but they'll only lead to more people unwilling or unable to take that significant step and apply themselves to long and difficult studies required for modern society and economy to function cohesively.

While I would agree that post-secondary isn't nearly as expensive here as the United States, it's only been drifting upwards Protests in Ontario were almost entirely ineffective, Quebec should fight tooth and nail to avoid becoming like us.Plus the whole, protecting the francophone culture thing.

[Burkingam]

Plus the whole, protecting the francophone culture thing.

I get pissed when my follow protesters try to mix this fight with Quebecois nationalism. There are also students on strike at Concordia and Mcgill universities, so it shouldn't have anything to do with nationalism.

Beside, if we win it's also to a lower extend a victory for the student movements in other provinces. Our government love to repeat ad nauseum that we should stop whining about tuition hikes because they are the lowest in Canada. I take it that if their are raised to $3,800 like the government wants, then Newfoundland will have the lowest tuition fees (at $2,649) which means that their government can do exactly the same thing with the same fallacious excuse.

[Nikkoru]

The strike itself may have nothing to do with Quebecois nationalism, but it's certainly one of the more prominent reasons behind the spirit which brought it about. People have been fighting tooth and nail to protect francophone schooling in Ontario, which just confuses me, but there it is.

[metro.]

The strike itself may have nothing to do with Quebecois nationalism, but it's certainly one of the more prominent reasons behind the spirit which brought it about. People have been fighting tooth and nail to protect francophone schooling in Ontario, which just confuses me, but there it is.

Yeah QC Nationalists can go away, they are rather annoying. It's like Anarchists in other protests, ruining shit for everyone.
I don't get the whole protect our culture thing, I really, really don't. But then again, I'm under the strong belief that there is very little Canadian culture to protect. We just kind of absorb whatever comes our way.

[jaybug]

You know Metro, the way you describe your educational debt, sounds a lot like someone who is hooked on freebasing crack cocaine. It's costs you your house.

Maybe it would be a good thing to have some disclosure papers, so that when you agree to take on student loan debt, they figure that you will be needing money for four years, so base the total amount borrowed, as an educated guess, and then show you the amortized payments for the thirty years after you are out of school.

Twenty years ago, student loans only had a ten year payment plan. Now I hear it is up to thirty years to repay the loans. Again, this sounds like you may be making the choice to have a house, or to have an education. So I think it doubly is a good idea to have some kind of idea just what one will be facing for the rest of one's life.

[Burkingam]

Yeah QC Nationalists can go away, they are rather annoying. It's like Anarchists in other protests, ruining shit for everyone.
I don't get the whole protect our culture thing, I really, really don't. But then again, I'm under the strong belief that there is very little Canadian culture to protect. We just kind of absorb whatever comes our way.

I think it's an artifact from the time before the Quiet revolution when our economy was controlled by anglophone businessmen. I know it might not be obvious for you guys because you're an English Canadian but the law 101 actually had it's use for some time. It was a way to force businesses to put people from the French majority in high up positions and for high paying jobs. I really want to say it's not useful anymore but I don't know if it would be true considering what our current prime minister thinks of multiculturalism.

As I said I'm not nationalist so I don't think it should be a goal to protect the French language itself, but I understand why many would fear a return to the French-English relation we had before the Quiet Revolution.

You know Metro, the way you describe your educational debt, sounds a lot like someone who is hooked on freebasing crack cocaine. It's costs you your house.

Maybe it would be a good thing to have some disclosure papers, so that when you agree to take on student loan debt, they figure that you will be needing money for four years, so base the total amount borrowed, as an educated guess, and then show you the amortized payments for the thirty years after you are out of school.

Twenty years ago, student loans only had a ten year payment plan. Now I hear it is up to thirty years to repay the loans. Again, this sounds like you may be making the choice to have a house, or to have an education. So I think it doubly is a good idea to have some kind of idea just what one will be facing for the rest of one's life.

If I was in his situation I would just get the damn diploma and declare bankrupt. In my province you have to wait 7 years before you can get free from the debts you got while studying but that's not too bad. It would I couldn't acquire anything anything of value or money for 7 years so I guess I can spend them working part time and going on vacation the rest of the time.

Fortunately I have a well payed job and I don't have an expensive lifestyle. The best part with my job is that it pays the bills, the worst part is everything else.