Discussion Forums > The Lounge
A Whole New Light
rostheferret:
--- Quote from: elvikun on April 11, 2012, 04:27:02 PM ---
--- Quote from: rostheferret on April 11, 2012, 03:47:07 PM --- (click to show/hide)
--- Quote from: elvikun on April 11, 2012, 03:00:05 PM ---
--- Quote from: rostheferret on April 11, 2012, 10:26:02 AM ---
--- Quote from: elvikun on April 11, 2012, 06:03:19 AM ---One of the definitions of sapient intelligent being is the ability to not act on and ignore basic instincts. And if you go for the "evolution has taught us so, it's in out genes" excuse you damn well better be into fat girls with enormous boobs. Yes. I mean you.
--- End quote ---
If we're talking from an evolutionary perspective, then you would instinctively be drawn towards the strongest mate, and the one most likely to provide with healthy offspring. In fact it's largely the determination of objective beauty (subjectivity emerges as minor deviations based on person) and I have no idea how overweight women would fit into this. In fact, many overweight women have a far greater difficulty in conceiving. Much larger emphasis would lie on things like symmetry, a medium weight and height (I despise the inaccuracy of the BMI and it's inability to consider different body shapes but it serves as a guide), the ratio between the hips and the waist (slim waist, big hips), and yes, moderately sized firm breasts suitable for child rearing. Sorry if this comes off a little cold, but it was intended to be from a scientific perspective.
--- End quote ---
Well, you see, that is my point, human "natural" instincts and preferences are SO dulled over the years, that they hardly apply at all. How does a big muscular man with wide jaws and huge... chin and rather overweight woman with not moderate breasts by any standarts availiable and extra-wide waist fit into this? Well, those are the ideals everyone would go for if the genes and insticts were trully so strong nowdays. The only remenants availiable are that rather big number of men still find wide wiast and big breasts sexier than anything, while many women can't resist muscles, wide shoulders and particular skull structure. Someone feels it strongly, someone doesn't feel it at all.
And frankly if those instincts and genes still had a strong role, most of people on this board would never came to be at all or would be killed shortly after birth. Also no musicians, artists, scientists, you name it. Things change tho - That is evolution. People are getting more heigh, more fragile and robust skeleton and more space for brain and intelligence. If everyone started to live in woods for several generations, we might start to go the other way again.
--- End quote ---
No, overweight women are NOT what instincts would draw you towards, because the object of human life is to procreate, and overweight women are less likely to produce healthy offspring than a woman of healthier build. As for men, are you excluding the possibility of a man being both intelligent and muscular? It's simple; any trait that pertains to good health, fertility (women) or power (men) is a contributing factor to perceived physical attractiveness. Yes, the definition of "power" has changed since caveman times but these ideals are the same for almost all mammals and haven't changed for thousands of years.
The idea that brain mass determines intelligence is also a common fallacy; the further you deviate from the norm, the higher probability you are to be mentally retarded (medically speaking).
--- End quote ---
I have NOT said muscular OR intelligent. I have NOT said larger brain, therefore more intelligent. I have NOT said overweight means 150 kilograms. I tend to not call obese people owerweight. Obese people call obese overweight.
Changing the point like that is the same as if I said now that you are saying it's all evolutionary but evolution does not work. It's not what you said, but why not change it a little bit, no harm in that. No-like? I though so. I don't like it either.
What I've said is that the insticts, all mentioned, are getting weaker and weaker, up to the point where many people completly forget them and/or created (or rather developed) new different ones, same goes with looking for power and looking for fertility or living a life with an objective to procreate.
--- End quote ---
I didn't change any argument, just followed on from what you implied or outright stated, and you stated that biologically, instinctively, we should be drawn to those that are overweight. I'm calling you out on that being incorrect. In fact, if you want to consider the possibility of modern influences then we are if anything bombarded with images of UNDERWEIGHT women and told that's where beauty lies; it would be natural for us to believe the opposite is true, but in reality it only leads to a warped perception of what is a healthy weight (with most believing that it's less than is really true). Our instincts haven't changed, just our ability to control them.
AceHigh:
--- Quote from: elvikun on April 11, 2012, 04:54:59 PM ---
--- Quote from: AceHigh on April 11, 2012, 04:49:31 PM ---Every time a guy thinks "Dat ass!!!", he proves you wrong elvi.
--- End quote ---
Really? Please, I know you're not overly serious kind of person, but put that into a context with what I've said, because it looks like random scream in the dark void of space to me, so to say.
--- End quote ---
Oh and now you are serious? That reminds me about the time you said that we would notice if you were angry. I guess something ticked you off in the discussion in previous pages. I guess it's easy to find out what it was, but TL;DR.
To put in simple context, you say we lose our instincts, I say that many guys still get a boner over female hip size.
elvikun:
--- Quote from: AceHigh on April 11, 2012, 05:13:36 PM --- (click to show/hide)
--- Quote from: elvikun on April 11, 2012, 04:54:59 PM ---
--- Quote from: AceHigh on April 11, 2012, 04:49:31 PM ---Every time a guy thinks "Dat ass!!!", he proves you wrong elvi.
--- End quote ---
Really? Please, I know you're not overly serious kind of person, but put that into a context with what I've said, because it looks like random scream in the dark void of space to me, so to say.
--- End quote ---
Oh and now you are serious? That reminds me about the time you said that we would notice if you were angry. I guess something ticked you off in the discussion in previous pages. I guess it's easy to find out what it was, but TL;DR.
To put in simple context, you say we lose our instincts, I say that many guys still get a boner over female hip size.
--- End quote ---
Yes, I said instincts are getting dull compared to hundert thousand years ago and that some of the human kind almost completly misses some of them while developing of a new ones takes pleace. But when I say "many" I mean less than half or actually less than quarter, definitely not "all of them".
And yes, I actually am serious. Not angry, but serious. Gee, two more messages without jokes and I might make it to the evening news. Anyway I'd rather log off than get angry.
--- Quote from: rostheferret on April 11, 2012, 05:08:39 PM --- (click to show/hide)
--- Quote from: elvikun on April 11, 2012, 04:27:02 PM ---
--- Quote from: rostheferret on April 11, 2012, 03:47:07 PM --- (click to show/hide)
--- Quote from: elvikun on April 11, 2012, 03:00:05 PM ---
--- Quote from: rostheferret on April 11, 2012, 10:26:02 AM ---
--- Quote from: elvikun on April 11, 2012, 06:03:19 AM ---One of the definitions of sapient intelligent being is the ability to not act on and ignore basic instincts. And if you go for the "evolution has taught us so, it's in out genes" excuse you damn well better be into fat girls with enormous boobs. Yes. I mean you.
--- End quote ---
If we're talking from an evolutionary perspective, then you would instinctively be drawn towards the strongest mate, and the one most likely to provide with healthy offspring. In fact it's largely the determination of objective beauty (subjectivity emerges as minor deviations based on person) and I have no idea how overweight women would fit into this. In fact, many overweight women have a far greater difficulty in conceiving. Much larger emphasis would lie on things like symmetry, a medium weight and height (I despise the inaccuracy of the BMI and it's inability to consider different body shapes but it serves as a guide), the ratio between the hips and the waist (slim waist, big hips), and yes, moderately sized firm breasts suitable for child rearing. Sorry if this comes off a little cold, but it was intended to be from a scientific perspective.
--- End quote ---
Well, you see, that is my point, human "natural" instincts and preferences are SO dulled over the years, that they hardly apply at all. How does a big muscular man with wide jaws and huge... chin and rather overweight woman with not moderate breasts by any standarts availiable and extra-wide waist fit into this? Well, those are the ideals everyone would go for if the genes and insticts were trully so strong nowdays. The only remenants availiable are that rather big number of men still find wide wiast and big breasts sexier than anything, while many women can't resist muscles, wide shoulders and particular skull structure. Someone feels it strongly, someone doesn't feel it at all.
And frankly if those instincts and genes still had a strong role, most of people on this board would never came to be at all or would be killed shortly after birth. Also no musicians, artists, scientists, you name it. Things change tho - That is evolution. People are getting more heigh, more fragile and robust skeleton and more space for brain and intelligence. If everyone started to live in woods for several generations, we might start to go the other way again.
--- End quote ---
No, overweight women are NOT what instincts would draw you towards, because the object of human life is to procreate, and overweight women are less likely to produce healthy offspring than a woman of healthier build. As for men, are you excluding the possibility of a man being both intelligent and muscular? It's simple; any trait that pertains to good health, fertility (women) or power (men) is a contributing factor to perceived physical attractiveness. Yes, the definition of "power" has changed since caveman times but these ideals are the same for almost all mammals and haven't changed for thousands of years.
The idea that brain mass determines intelligence is also a common fallacy; the further you deviate from the norm, the higher probability you are to be mentally retarded (medically speaking).
--- End quote ---
I have NOT said muscular OR intelligent. I have NOT said larger brain, therefore more intelligent. I have NOT said overweight means 150 kilograms. I tend to not call obese people owerweight. Obese people call obese overweight.
Changing the point like that is the same as if I said now that you are saying it's all evolutionary but evolution does not work. It's not what you said, but why not change it a little bit, no harm in that. No-like? I though so. I don't like it either.
What I've said is that the insticts, all mentioned, are getting weaker and weaker, up to the point where many people completly forget them and/or created (or rather developed) new different ones, same goes with looking for power and looking for fertility or living a life with an objective to procreate.
--- End quote ---
I didn't change any argument, just followed on from what you implied or outright stated, and you stated that biologically, instinctively, we should be drawn to those that are overweight. I'm calling you out on that being incorrect. In fact, if you want to consider the possibility of modern influences then we are if anything bombarded with images of UNDERWEIGHT women and told that's where beauty lies; it would be natural for us to believe the opposite is true, but in reality it only leads to a warped perception of what is a healthy weight (with most believing that it's less than is really true). Our instincts haven't changed, just our ability to control them.
--- End quote ---
Ok. If you could quote where I have said muscular means stupid, bigger brain more intelligent, intelligent can't be muscular or vice versa and perhaps the part about obesity, aside rom "You better like fat gilrs!" Thank you. Or maybe it's just...
... for example, when I say "Cars are getting bigger and faster lately" the sentence implies that recently, cars are getting bigger and cars are getting faster, however it does not imply that cars are getting bigger and because of that, they are faster. That would be an assumption which would be unfortunately incorrect.
While physical evolution takes eons, minds can evolve quickly to adapt to new envirimoment. So while humans bodies are slowly reacting to the fact that instruments exsist and we no longer have to run after animals and bash them with fists, just as well the fact that weak and small are no longer killed before they can contribute to the gene pool (that actually might have more effect here than the evolution itself), minds and instincts can get sharper or duller over a few generations.
And this is what I'm pointing out. Some people lost instincts and other things coded in genes almost completely, while for example the memory capacity is increasing and and of course, also preferences and objectives of life. Loss of orientation sense, women disliking childeren, men preffering weak women over the "ideal", exclusion of meat from the diet and hunderths of other things are it. Those changes are both envirimomental "attunement" and evolution but the all absolutely defile what our genes and instincts should be forcing us to do.
rostheferret:
"The only remenants availiable are that rather big number of men still find wide wiast and big breasts sexier than anything, while many women can't resist muscles, wide shoulders and particular skull structure. Someone feels it strongly, someone doesn't feel it at all."
Your view on instinctual attractiveness.
"And frankly if those instincts and genes still had a strong role, most of people on this board would never came to be at all or would be killed shortly after birth. Also no musicians, artists, scientists, you name it. Things change tho - That is evolution. People are getting more heigh, more fragile and robust skeleton and more space for brain and intelligence. "
You stating that if instincts hadn't weakened, and we hadn't stopped procreating the strongest and healthiest of our species, we wouldn't have people of notable intelligence.
"If you go for the "evolution has taught us so, it's in out genes" excuse you damn well better be into fat girls with enormous boobs. Yes. I mean you."
You stating that according to evolution, the human race has developed a growing attraction towards overweight women. Which was really where the argument snowballed from leading into "humans no longer have instincts."
EDIT: Evolution and genetics are not the same as instincts. Instincts are deep rooted within life; it's the part of animals that wants to survive and the basics of how to do that; a reflex to a certain event that the brain has little control over. I don't consciously think if someone's attractive, I do a double take before my brain has a chance to tell me otherwise. Have you ever felt an adrenaline rush? Is that dulling over time? Our instinctive ability to sense danger and prepare for it? How about the smell of someone else's shit after they forgot to flush. The smell, is it appetising? Or is it sending messages to your brain telling you it's best not to eat it? These are all instinctive responses, and the day they dull is the day we all die.
kadatherion:
--- Quote from: elvikun on April 11, 2012, 03:00:05 PM ---First of, Never ever, ever, ever talk about evelution, instincts and genes and the say "One has to work with what God gave him". I suspect a joke, but on the other hand I had my share of discussions around this topic and I know not everything what looks like obvious joke is one :D
--- End quote ---
AGH! Of course it was a joke! God didn't gave me anything. I took it from his cold, dead hands! >:-)
Which isn't that easy, you know, as the damn prick keeps coming back as a zombie every three days. And everyone knows Judas was a better singer anyway.
No seriously, as a certain other topic in the general discussions forums will reveal (I hate myself for having noticed it a couple days late), I'm definitely on what I believe your wavelength has to be - from what I glanced - when it comes to religion. It's just that, well, the G word often comes pretty spontaneously as a verbal tic. It's a mix of things such as "ohmygosh" sounding rather stupid to me, and the need to refrain myself from talking like a longshoreman all the time.
Anyway, when you're not sure, in my case you can bet I'm joking and probably making fun of myself :P
--- Quote from: elvikun on April 11, 2012, 03:00:05 PM ---Don't take this personally, but noone really likes the...
"Um hi. I really like you. But... It's just because of the deeply rooted sexual animal instincts and evolutionary instinct telling me you are very good for making lively children, now let me buy a drink and sit next to you because my genes tell me to care for you and protect you and the years of psychology and philosophy tell me it might also get me something I will like. I like it because my genes are programmed to like it so we won't die out a s a species, you know?"
... People. Don't be "that guy".
--- End quote ---
Actually, I never tried such a line. But in hindsight it could work, you know, it's original. Still a better love story than Twi- err, I mean, still better than awkward chit chat about weather. Why does weather comes to mind in such instances, anyway? What's the wicked instinct that tells our brain "Hey dude, you don't have the slightest idea what to say to sound casual as all you're doing is peeking through her V-neck, so go for the first safe thing that comes to mind: that today it's cold". The fuck?
Seriously though, I'm totally with you on the fact intellect is a filter that nowadays can make behaviour go in even opposite directions than what the basic, primeval instincts would in theory aim for. What I'm saying is that intellect doesn't do that out of nowhere: it reprocesses and redirects instincts as the social environment (and imprinting, the mass media era has brought upon a level of imprinting never seen before in human history) changes.
For instance, social standing is nowadays often perceived by the subconscious as important for choosing a mate as his physical good health. Instincts have no idea what money is, our intellect does though, and as such instincts get redirected towards a mate that offers economic stability which is a modern requirement to offer your offspring an healthy and successful upbringing. (Which means I really should never get laid :( )
The muscular caveman isn't a prominent icon as it was not that many decades ago. I'd say this comes from the fact the woman has finally taken a more prominent role in society, and the canon of the ideal man has no need anymore to be as dominant as it had to before. As in the current society the icon of the "dominant" male is often depicted alongside that of the typical character that wouldn't be able to keep a family together (violent, possessive, jealous... all things that actually were once perceived as kind of sexy... just look at any male lead from some old B&W flick like Casablanca and how they treated women), such traits suddenly become unattractive. Not saying a muscular man has to be a douchebag (I actually was quite muscular in my golden years, but my douchebaggery is the same now that I am a wimp), but the cliché often goes along those lines.
This can reach what you probably would call deviations: like those women who are attracted by particularly androgynous looks in a man. I mean, what is it deep down, jealously because Miyavi looks hotter than you dressed as a streetlamp woman? :P Jokes aside, it is so blatantly alienated from what should be the instinctive canon that it really seems to be a completely standalone one. What I believe is simply that intellect has the power to turn the instincts upside down even to such extents, but that it cannot really ignore them. Instincts are the fuel of thought.
After all, this whole debate came from the question on my (obviously rather sarcastic and humorous) reasons for finding virginity a tendentially attractive trait in a woman. Why do I, and why do many men? There are countless intermediate levels of social and cultural reasons that can be brought up as an explanation, but deep down I believe everything can be traced down to those same instincts, and how sometimes they still affect our behavior even in unpleasant ways (I do not, in fact, believe that finding virginity an attractive trait in a woman, and thus inadvertently crediting it with some real importance, is respectful. Luckily we are emancipating from that too, slowly but surely).
Then it's obvious that if I find a woman attractive because we share the same interests, or, who knows, we like the same music, I'm not there thinking "I dig her because we loving the same music means I can impregnate her and keep her as the mother of my children, as I won't have to kill her with fire for liking Justin Bieber and as such she is best suited to carry my genepool". I just think her company is pleasant, we have lots to talk about, and that's all that matters.
It might just be I find reassuring (?) when I practice mental masturbation (is it a figure of speech in English too? Oh well, if I get misunderstood it's gonna be even more fun) to remember myself we are sick beasts deep down. In your face, "created in His own image"! Well, actually, He Himself seemed to be kind of a sick ba... oook, cut here, I already pointed out my beliefs on the matter. Love and tolerate, wasn't it? :P
--- Quote from: rostheferret on April 11, 2012, 06:01:29 PM ---How about the smell of someone else's shit after they forgot to flush. The smell, is it appetising? Or is it sending messages to your brain telling you it's best not to eat it? These are all instinctive responses, and the day they dull is the day we all die.
--- End quote ---
Now, that's something I never thought of. But you surely are right. Now I get why we all love the smell of our farts, but hate the smell of others. (No really, I agree with you, it just sparked this wonderful mental image, that's all ;D )
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