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A Whole New Light

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metro.:
What the fuck happened. I went to sleep and now I don't even know what's going on any more.

kadatherion:

--- Quote from: metro. on April 11, 2012, 06:25:51 PM ---What the fuck happened. I went to sleep and now I don't even know what's going on any more.

--- End quote ---

Verbal diarrhea happens.
To me, all the time.
I wonder if Imodium...  ::)

elvikun:

--- Quote from: rostheferret on April 11, 2012, 06:01:29 PM ---"The only remenants availiable are that rather big number of men still find wide wiast and big breasts sexier than anything, while many women can't resist muscles, wide shoulders and particular skull structure. Someone feels it strongly, someone doesn't feel it at all."

Your view on instinctual attractiveness.
Yes, As I have said a few times, it changes. While in the past, almost everyone clinged to those stereotypes as people were generally mainly driven by instincts rather than individual thinking, in the present still less and less people do as the insticts get duller and coinscious though takes the lead.

"And frankly if those instincts and genes still had a strong role, most of people on this board would never  came to be at all or would be killed shortly after birth. Also no musicians, artists, scientists, you name it. Things change tho - That is evolution. People are getting more heigh, more fragile and robust skeleton and more space for brain and intelligence. "

You stating that if instincts hadn't weakened, and we hadn't stopped procreating the strongest and healthiest of our species, we wouldn't have people of notable intelligence.
Yet again, in the past, intelligence did not matter. Even if you had IQ 250, unless you were strong, you just died on your own or got clubbed to ground and never even got close to "procreating" and sending your genes down the stream of time. SImilarly, when a weak child was born, it was kileld or again, died on it's own. In the present, both get to procreate, shifting the genetical pool in tremendeous ways causing both physical and intellectuan changes for the future generation.
I didn't say top physical fitness means weak mind, however it is rare even nowdays to see peope who are exceptionally physically gifted and at the same time have strong, talented mind. Nontheless you can't sing the hell out of the 2m 140kg man with huge club when you weight 50kg and limp.

"If you go for the "evolution has taught us so, it's in out genes" excuse you damn well better be into fat girls with enormous boobs. Yes. I mean you."

You stating that according to evolution, the human race has developed a growing attraction towards overweight women. Which was really where the argument snowballed from leading into "humans no longer have instincts."
Ok, let's act as if I haven't said "Please, don't use the fat girls joke".
And... Hell no. I have not said there is growing attraction, I have said it's in fact declining because being "healthy (read overwight but NOT obese) and busty" no longer means "she must be great kid factory and she will probably survive the long winter".
And I haven't said humans no longer have instinct. You are starting to go just a little bit over the edge here. I have said, many times actually, that the old instincts are getting duller and different ones are being developed. For further explanation, perhaps read the previous post?

EDIT: Evolution and genetics are not the same as instincts. Instincts are deep rooted within life; it's the part of animals that wants to survive and the basics of how to do that; a reflex to a certain event that the brain has little control over. I don't consciously think if someone's attractive, I do a double take before my brain has a chance to tell me otherwise. Have you ever felt an adrenaline rush? Is that dulling over time? Our instinctive ability to sense danger and prepare for it? How about the smell of someone else's shit after they forgot to flush. The smell, is it appetising? Or is it sending messages to your brain telling you it's best not to eat it? These are all instinctive responses, and the day they dull is the day we all die.

Instincts are merely an information packet. Only way human being can send those and other packets to offsprings is genes. Over many generations, the conetents change. If they didn't, there would be no homo sapiens to begin with.
Are they dulling over time? Of course they are. But maybe I just have to be more literal - not dulling, but adjusting, fine-tuning. Those less needed are getting rather dormant, while other emerge. Instinct and physical abilities and characteristics as well. Why aren't we so hairy anymore? To your examples... Adrenaline glands? Why do you think they are tiny compared to caveman? Smell? Hell, that is getting measurably weaker generation from generation. It's not needed and the package contents changed. Do we need predatory instincts? No. It's also slowly changing. We are also getting weaker and more fragile, less resistant to cold. We could just call it flexibile programming which adjusts to outside stimuli, records the changes, duplicates itself with those changes. And it goes on and on, every generation adding a bit, taking a bit away and sending the information to the next generation. Of course, it goes unimaginably slow.

Good thing is that thanks to the quetos I at least know what you misunderstood.

--- End quote ---
Oh I added the green part of text, before you misinterpret that as me throwing salad on you or some such. Again.


@Kadatherion
Wait, wait, wait. You love the smell of your shit?! I don't say this often, but... For the love of Jesus man.

*COUGH*

To the line. It makes it sounds like you are introducing, apologising, explaining and excusing at the same moment. But you could try the line about smelling shit. I bet -she- never heard anything of the sort.

This might sound... Somewhat elitist, but I do believe that intellect, or rather, strong enough mind can not only fully override instincts and at the same time ignore the implications of human society, imprinting, indoctrination, crowd control and cultural suggestions for the most part. In a bit poetic way, if you allow me, a  person that is trully free.  On the other hand - Intellect, but a weak will is more of a curse than a blessing nowdays. Person that will be completely cotrolled by the society and it's leaders. Which actually would be large portion of population. Instinct are not the fuel., they are the background layer in photoshop.
Well, fuck, that was deep.

And mental masturbation? I think we call it telekinesis.

...
I would say more, but I have to run away for a moment, levels of my patience and caffeine level are very close to 0. And I'm not even sure which one is worse.

kadatherion:

--- Quote from: elvikun on April 11, 2012, 07:11:28 PM ---Wait, wait, wait. You love the smell of your shit?! I don't say this often, but... For the love of Jesus man.
--- End quote ---

Every man is secretly proud of those unspeakable physics phenomena happening in that cancerous micro-environment under his blankets. Or, well, maybe it's just an italian thing, part of our Mediterranean manly charm...


--- Quote from: elvikun on April 11, 2012, 07:11:28 PM ---To the line. It makes it sounds like you are introducing, apologising, explaining and excusing at the same moment. But you could try the line about smelling shit. I bet -she- never heard anything of the sort.
--- End quote ---

I believe the line about smelling one's own farts actually did work a couple times. First rule is make them laugh, ain't it? I wonder if they really gave a thought about how much of truth really lies behind the legend, though. Not gonna ask, of course, laugh with you, not at you - and in the totally awkward way that means she is actually glancing around to spot the nearest emergency exit.


--- Quote from: elvikun on April 11, 2012, 07:11:28 PM ---This might sound... Somewhat elitist, but I do believe that intellect, or rather, strong enough mind can not only fully override instincts and at the same time ignore the implications of human society, imprinting, indoctrination, crowd control and cultural suggestions for the most part. In a bit poetic way, if you allow me, a  person that is trully free.  On the other hand - Intellect, but a weak will is more of a curse than a blessing nowdays. Person that will be completely cotrolled by the society and it's leaders. Which actually would be large portion of population. Instinct are not the fuel., they are the background layer in photoshop.
Well, fuck, that was deep.
--- End quote ---

Well, it's more or less what Buddhists - and particularly the Zen ones - aim for since, well, 2500 years ago. It's called Nirvana. Apparently, only a very few individuals managed to reach such an enlightenment and become Buddhas or Bodhisattvas. In all honesty, it seems quite preposterous to me. It's a philosophy I personally find extremely intriguing (of course in its genuine form, before the translation into religious canons: Buddhism shouldn't be a religion at all), but nope, no matter how much one could meditate or starve himself into sensory deprivation, I seriously doubt he really can transcend the existence of his own body or the archetypes of his own mind. And I've yet to see a buddhist being able to pass through a wall simply because he truly believes the wall doesn't exist.

Instincts are something you can be totally unaware of, but being unaware of them doesn't mean they aren't behind your deepest thought patterns. To keep ourselves on disturbing ones, how many people truly have had any sort of sexual attraction towards their parents? Very few I'd hope. And yet how many had during their growth Oedipus complex dreams? I sure did, and I still want to puke when I think about that.

Anyway, if instincts weren't the fuel of thought, what would be? Because, you see, thought needs fuel, a spark, a reason. Nothing comes to be into existence without a reason, without cause and effect. Unless there is a God and the universe is his own playground. And I believe we are on the same page here having serious logic doubts about that.
Thought has been born from needs (and needs rapidly became desires: the whole obsession with money and power so common in the human being is nothing more than survival instincts brought to the to the nth degree, from survival to better, comfortable and as such supposedly longer life). What are the most basic instincts if not needs? I need to eat, my instincts tell me so, and as such I think about how I can find food. More evolved, intelligent and abstract thought made it possible to discover better, easier ways to find food, and as such that's the direction evolution took as it is successful.
Most of our needs, and this you pointed out well, aren't perceived as needs anymore (at least for a percentage of the world population we are part of), they are much more into the realm of desires. Who really knows the need to eat, nowadays? We know the desire to eat, even a rather strong desire, but the need to isn't something we really are familiar with. That is why, in my opinion, one can get to the assumption instincts aren't as strong as they once were. I say not: they still are, it's the needs what have become less urgent, less of a life-or-death situation, and when they are desires they can easily take much more abstract and varied forms.
But put a "civilized" man into a primitive situation, and you'll see how quickly he will regress to those primeval instincts he thought he had long forgotten and overtaken.

Thought is the instrument trough which we satisfy our needs and desires, and that is its purpose today just as much as it was for the Neanderthals. All that happens around us changes what our priorities are, our needs and desires, that's for sure, and we learn to think differently to accommodate that; as we do, the world around us changes even more by our own hands, and so will our intellect adapt, in an endless cycle.
Why are we here chatting and thinking about such philosophical mumbo-jumbo bullshit? Evidently 'cause we have a desire to do so. From what this desire sparks might be different: to one it might spark more from the very basic needs of communicating a social animal like humans have, to another it can be because he finds it pleasant to talk about this particular matter that he finds interesting and as such he feels compelled to satisfy this desire, yet another one might be a presumptuous douche who just finds something disturbing, offensive in what has been said about that before, and again he feels this push to satisfy this little need of his to "put things straight".
What is that push? It's instincts. If they weren't there, he wouldn't talk. He wouldn't move. He wouldn't eat. He wouldn't breath.

You say you find being able to completely override the urges that could come from instincts, as well as those that come from social imprinting, an ideal state of mind, and the true, definitive goal and power of thought. Something that, philosophically at least, I believe most of us could agree on (or at least be fascinated by).
But what is that if not something your thought recognizes as a desirable condition? And as a desire, what can it be if not something you strive for because your instincts push you to always try and fulfill your desires? See the paradox?

If you can come up with another reason for thinking, please tell me, I'm not sarcastic or condescending, and I hope I'm not sounding blunt as I suddenly am a bit more assertive in my language, it's just that you hit quite the spot.



--- Quote from: elvikun on April 11, 2012, 07:11:28 PM ---And mental masturbation? I think we call it telekinesis.

--- End quote ---

You just won an internet.


--- Quote from: elvikun on April 11, 2012, 07:11:28 PM ---I would say more, but I have to run away for a moment, levels of my patience and caffeine level are very close to 0. And I'm not even sure which one is worse.

--- End quote ---

Urr, well, I know my blabber can get tedious, but I hope you don't find it offensive even though we are of different opinions. To me this is just a friendly chat, and I wouldn't end up with this goddamn walls of text if it wasn't pleasure to chat about it and compare views. It's in my instincts, you see ;)

elvikun:

--- Quote from: kadatherion on April 11, 2012, 08:43:46 PM ---Every man is secretly proud of those unspeakable physics phenomena happening in that cancerous micro-environment under his blankets. Or, well, maybe it's just an italian thing, part of our Mediterranean manly charm...

--- End quote ---
Well. Everyone knows how men love to fart in small spaces, especially in beds. I think I just never figured it wasn't because it was supposed to be funny, but because they simply wanted to inhale the aroma of shit.
*Cough*

--- Quote ---I believe the line about smelling one's own farts actually did work a couple times. First rule is make them laugh, ain't it?
--- End quote ---
Honestly, I wouldn't do that, especially in the introduction phase. I can stand a lot, but I don't think I would actually aperciate starting conversation with fecal humour. It's just not what Prince Charming would do.

--- Quote ---Well, it's more or less what Buddhists - and particularly the Zen ones - aim for since, well, 2500 years ago. It's called Nirvana.
--- End quote ---
I know, I'm familar with buddhism, very likeable philosophical path, yet the part about "ascension" is a little over the top. But  Nirvana is definitely not what I meant.
Tho I saw a guy pass trough wall. Not even a buddhist. Not sure if he actually survived the impact either.

--- Quote ---Instincts are something you can be totally unaware of, but being unaware of them doesn't mean they aren't behind your deepest thought patterns. To keep ourselves on disturbing ones, how many people truly have had any sort of sexual attraction towards their parents? Very few I'd hope. And yet how many had during their growth Oedipus complex dreams? I sure did, and I still want to puke when I think about that.
--- End quote ---
(click to show/hide)"What do you mean, very few?!"
I just can't help it and use one argument from debate that got awfully similar. Not my opinion, but it fits in well, in very awkward way.
Just because you are unaware of God, it doesn't mean he isn't there.

--- Quote ---Anyway, if instincts weren't the fuel of thought, what would be? Because, you see, thought needs fuel, a spark, a reason. Nothing comes to be into existence without a reason, without cause and effect. Unless there is a God and the universe is his own playground. And I believe we are on the same page here having serious logic doubts about that.
--- End quote ---
I simply disagree. Universe is chaotic. People are chaotic. Not everything must have reason and objective to exist. You don't need reason to think once you start after your brain develops (the spark), and neither can you stop untill your brain dies. Much like a diesel generator doesn't need a reason to run once it started with a literal spark and, and neither can it stop untill it runs out of fuel (death) or it is stopped by someone (...murder!).
Also, I have no doubts about God. I am pretty clear about that area. If you know what I mean.

--- Quote ---But put a "civilized" man into a primitive situation, and you'll see how quickly he will regress to those primeval instincts he thought he had long forgotten and overtaken.
--- End quote ---
Put a primitive man into civilized society to see what insticts are. Something we have long forgotten.
Well. That's a cool twist.

The problem is that you talk about the most basic, mechanical needs human has, where I talk more about preferences and obejctives human can have in  life and how those changed.


--- Quote ---What is that push? It's instincts. If they weren't there, he wouldn't talk. He wouldn't move. He wouldn't eat. He wouldn't breath.
--- End quote ---
This approach bugs me. In the past people used instict because they lacked the ability of complex thinking. And so yes, thinking was really just a procces out of necessity pushed by instincts and basic needs BUT today we have mental capabilities on level that is not even comparable because the void between the two is simply too imeasurable. Once instict governed everything, supported by thinking, but now, it's thinking with instinct on the background, because the complex thinking makes solutions more reasonable and faster than trivial instinct. Well, that sounds a bit... chaotic, but then again, instinct are actually trivial thinking process which can be overriden by complex thinking processes.
My point is, things DO change. Human 200k years ago and now is not the same. Rules change, game continues.


--- Quote ---You say you find being able to completely override the urges that could come from instincts, as well as those that come from social imprinting, an ideal state of mind, and the true, definitive goal and power of thought. Something that, philosophically at least, I believe most of us could agree on (or at least be fascinated by).
But what is that if not something your thought recognizes as a desirable condition? And as a desire, what can it be if not something you strive for because your instincts push you to always try and fulfill your desires? See the paradox?
--- End quote ---
I do not see the paradox, because I did not mean "the perfect purity" and true free will in the philosophical or even theological way, but in fact, in a practical way. It is far from impossible to get rid of almost all effects of culture an society, just as repressing or ignoring the trivial thinking processes. Of course, the "perfect" purity is something else and not very far from dead brain in a living body, hah.

--- Quote ---Urr, well, I know my blabber can get tedious, but I hope you don't find it offensive even though we are of different opinions.
--- End quote ---
Well, that wasn't actually directed at you. It was just a general statement. Frankly, there's a bad coincidence, where I'm having a different debates at the same times and when I combine all three, it's some serious pissing material, because while each is of very different nature, together they look rather similar in a very, very disturbing way.

All I originally wanted to say was that "instincts made me do it!" is lately awfully similar " God made me do it!", also "It's in our genes" x "It's gods will" and that if insticts ruled so much, then it would be impossible to kill yourself, not have kids or be a vegetarian and so many other things.

And the last post really is a bit long. It's bit hard to answer AND make some sense. I'm not actually sure it makes one, when it's segmented like that.:D

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