Author Topic: Math doesn't suck, you do.  (Read 3183 times)

Offline Nikkoru

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Re: Math doesn't suck, you do.
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2012, 07:35:29 AM »
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People gladly learn art, music, literature and geography.
This is not true. I've known enough people who are fully satisfied with the ugly stick men school of artistic expression, desired fervently to smash their music-class instruments for the catharsis of the act, would sooner self-flagellate than read something long and terse from the literary canon, and can't read a local road map let alone decipher a complex topography.

The reason people complain about math, it's damn boring. It's tedious, repetitive, and if you make a careless error at any point -- it's worthless. Cooking is forgiving. It has movement, smells, textures, tastes, and the allure of creativity. Music captures the imagination, our emotions, our inner being -- creating it or listening to it can drive us into ecstatic bliss or deepest despair. Even if you lack the talent for it, the attraction is plain. Literature? go into an endless stream of different worlds and experience them in the technocolor of your imagination. There are accepted methods to literary criticism, but no absolutes, just an endless stream of arguments and interpretations which change with every reader. Geography? The world is an interesting place, both how it works physically and how it's shaped anthropologically. At any rate, geography is to any significant depth expressed in mathematical terms and equations, relatively complex ones at that.

What you can do with math is remarkable and enthralling, math is just a tool to do more interesting things with -- the actual process of learning and using said tool is deeply and unremittingly tiresome. Showing haughty disdain for anti-intellectuals is natural I suppose, and people should learn and retain the knowledge at least to the level of secondary school maths, but expecting them to like it because it's important to our civilization and more importantly -- because you like it -- is just being supercilious.

I have no practical knowledge of agriculture, in spite of its impossible importance to our civilization and species for the last 10 thousand years, I don't consider this a character flaw. I'm not going to mock farming, but I'm certainly not going to do a couple months hard labour on a farm to familiarize myself with the practice. I have no interest in it, it's difficult, and from my perspective I have better things to do.
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Online Pentium100

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Re: Math doesn't suck, you do.
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2012, 08:30:58 AM »
To me math (in general) is boring. I never start solving equations just for the fun of it. I may do it when I need to calculate something (though I would just use WolframAlpha or similar), but doing it by hand is hard, boring and unreliable (simple mistake and most of the work is worthless).
Statistics can be interesting - it is interesting to see patterns emerge from a collection of (real world) measurements.

On the other hand, taking an electronic device apart and learning how it works is really fun and useful (in the future it is easier to repair that class of devices). So is designing and building a new device (even if it involves some math). So is rpairing a broken device and "bringing it back to life".
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Online Hadouken

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Re: Math doesn't suck, you do.
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2012, 08:36:49 AM »
I guess I'll be a moron then cuz I loathe math.
.

Offline Burkingam

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Re: Math doesn't suck, you do.
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2012, 09:52:09 AM »
Why are there so many morons here? Math is a tool free to be used to solve various problems. Why do people hate a tool that is designed to help us? It makes just as much sense as saying "screwdrivers suck". Well... sure, don't mind me and the fact that even subconsciously you use math to some degree every day.
RAmen!!

I personally love math. Always have.
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Offline elvikun

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Re: Math doesn't suck, you do.
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2012, 10:43:26 AM »
Why are there so many morons here? Math is a tool free to be used to solve various problems. Why do people hate a tool that is designed to help us? It makes just as much sense as saying "screwdrivers suck". Well... sure, don't mind me and the fact that even subconsciously you use math to some degree every day.

Note, just because something is used or beneficial in a long run doesn't meant it's cool and fun. I mean, those guys riding a big vacuum cleaner, collecting dog shit on the streets are really beneficial and needed, yet I somehow don't think it's fun and you're retarded if you don't like them or collecting dog shit.
But as I pointed out, dislike for math is something caused by the fact some people simply don't like it / find it hard to do combined with the fact (a FACT) that most shools have math teachers who have a knack for being really boring, bad at explaining and / or very forcefull and harsh.
Oh yeah, and going around saying how everyone who dislikes math is moron / ignorant / stupid also helps the cause. It reinforces the stereotype of how people who like math are like and makes people who dislike math offended / hate it more. Win - win, really.

For the record, I don't really have much aginst math. If I disliked something, it's prolly german language. Which by this logic is the very same, but eh.
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Offline Nikkoru

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Re: Math doesn't suck, you do.
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2012, 10:46:39 AM »
Why are there so many morons here? Math is a tool free to be used to solve various problems. Why do people hate a tool that is designed to help us? It makes just as much sense as saying "screwdrivers suck". Well... sure, don't mind me and the fact that even subconsciously you use math to some degree every day.
RAmen!!

I personally love math. Always have.

If I spent day after day pointlessly screwing and unscrewing, I'd begin to dislike the screwdriver immensely however innocent it may be. The present pedagogy could use some reconsideration, I did not appreciate filling out full form answers to hundreds of problems each with slight variations on the last. I detested showing my work especially, as my mind goes to the end of the problem quite quickly and all the writing was just boring.

Math takes focus and discipline, which are rarely synonymous with elementary and secondary school students. I only began to love what math could do when I started playing D&D, oddly enough..

math teachers who have a knack for being really boring, bad at explaining and / or very forcefull and harsh.

This is why I came to tolerate math. My grade 11 math teacher was lazy as hell, explained everything in 20-minutes, spent the rest of the time playing poker with us or sitting in front of a fan shooting the shit. Never gave homework, we had tests monthly and a final exam. I memorized the formulae and rules, did three quick questions each of every problem (the first, the middle, and the last), and passed with an A. I can respect a man who lives by his laziness, and has a healthy dose of apathy.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 10:55:20 AM by Nikkoru »
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Offline AceHigh

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Re: Math doesn't suck, you do.
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2012, 11:50:45 AM »
Oh yeah, and going around saying how everyone who dislikes math is moron / ignorant / stupid also helps the cause. It reinforces the stereotype of how people who like math are like and makes people who dislike math offended / hate it more. Win - win, really.

I don't like math, I don't dislike math. I just use it when it is needed, not an object of hate or love, it just is. I am calling people morons not for being unable to solve math problems or whatever, but because of the oversimplified attitude towards something that shouldn't be a subject of such judgement to begin with.

In other words, no you don't hate math, you hate the school days and the education programme. When saying "math sucks", you only fail at utilizing yet another tool that is often a subject of misguided love or hate: the language.
For one thing, Tiff is not on any level what I would call a typical American.  She's not what I would consider a typical person.  I don't know any other genius geneticist anime-fan martial artist marksman model-level beauties, do you?

Offline elvikun

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Re: Math doesn't suck, you do.
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2012, 12:25:21 PM »
Oh yeah, and going around saying how everyone who dislikes math is moron / ignorant / stupid also helps the cause. It reinforces the stereotype of how people who like math are like and makes people who dislike math offended / hate it more. Win - win, really.

I don't like math, I don't dislike math. I just use it when it is needed, not an object of hate or love, it just is. I am calling people morons not for being unable to solve math problems or whatever, but because of the oversimplified attitude towards something that shouldn't be a subject of such judgement to begin with.

In other words, no you don't hate math, you hate the school days and the education programme. When saying "math sucks", you only fail at utilizing yet another tool that is often a subject of misguided love or hate: the language.
Well, thing is, for example history. You may find it useless and boring and you may have grumpy old teacher who hates all life in the universe, yet if you made it to high school, you most likely have enough brain power to learn few pages of text either way, where math, even with good teacher (which in case of math and chemisry is very rare for some reason) will be hard for half of people no matter how much or little they try, because there are things you can't really learn. If it's combined with evil teacher or one who can't explain things properly... I think dislike for math is justified. Dislike for anything which is forced on you is justified to certain extend.
But honestly, offending people for dislking math is a hell lot more silly than judging scientific discipline based on frustrated high school teacher. Sorry.


@Nikkoru
Lazy teachers are cool. Everyone likes them. Everyone likes their subjects too. As opposed to teachers who love their subjects fanatically and start the class by saying "You WILL like this.". Which brings me back to my german teacher. Deutsch ist eine tolle Sprache, Deutschland ist eine große Nation, Alle zelebrieren Deutschland! (the point of the classes) ... Eventually, it gets old when you hear  it four times a week for four years.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 12:34:12 PM by elvikun »
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Offline Burkingam

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Re: Math doesn't suck, you do.
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2012, 12:31:27 PM »
@AceHigh I see why you say that hating math is misguided because it's a useful tool and all. The same way that a guy with cancer may dislike receiving the chemotherapy treatment but saying he dislike chemotherapy in general is misguided because it's useful, it's saving millions of lives including his.

But I don't see why loving math would be misguided though.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 01:08:14 PM by Burkingam »
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Offline AceHigh

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Re: Math doesn't suck, you do.
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2012, 12:48:57 PM »
^^ Nice logic. "I hate teacher so I hate math". And you said that someone else is silly? Besides I am not offending people for disliking math, I mock them because their logic sucks and their semantic understanding of the word "Mathematics" is so poor that they associate it with some person from their childhood.

Surely you must have had an English teacher you hated, so by that logic you should zip your mouth and stop talking as well as stop writing?


Quote
But I don't see why loving math would be misguided though.
Because I believe it's more appropriate to classify that as loving to solve problems in which mathematics are used (or whatever else you use math for).
For one thing, Tiff is not on any level what I would call a typical American.  She's not what I would consider a typical person.  I don't know any other genius geneticist anime-fan martial artist marksman model-level beauties, do you?

Offline AceD

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Re: Math doesn't suck, you do.
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2012, 12:53:13 PM »
Lonely virgins love math  8) .

Until you meet another lonely virgin who also loves math.

Yeah am a moron who would rather go out drinking with his mates, or watch the football. Basically what you would call normal male behavior....

Why are there so many morons here? Math is a tool free to be used to solve various problems. Why do people hate a tool that is designed to help us? It makes just as much sense as saying "screwdrivers suck". Well... sure, don't mind me and the fact that even subconsciously you use math to some degree every day.
This is true, but unless its a tool you need to use seriously on a daily basis, no reason to give a fuck about it. I don't hate it, but i don't like it either....because i have no reason to care about it.

Offline AceHigh

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Re: Math doesn't suck, you do.
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2012, 01:04:14 PM »
Exactly! Not giving a fuck about it is the most sound logic. Sure we can all go to drink with buddies and be the cool guy who won the most cash in blackjack because of the superior probability calculation skills. Cool people use math too  ;)
For one thing, Tiff is not on any level what I would call a typical American.  She's not what I would consider a typical person.  I don't know any other genius geneticist anime-fan martial artist marksman model-level beauties, do you?

Offline elvikun

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Re: Math doesn't suck, you do.
« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2012, 01:08:27 PM »
^^ Nice logic. "I hate teacher so I hate math". And you said that someone else is silly? Besides I am not offending people for disliking math, I mock them because their logic sucks and their semantic understanding of the word "Mathematics" is so poor that they associate it with some person from their childhood.

Surely you must have had an English teacher you hated, so by that logic you should zip your mouth and stop talking as well as stop writing?

Just between the two of us "more silly than" suggest both things are silly, but one a little bit more than the other. So... Yeah.

When a kid says they dislike math, it's not an opinion, because they don't have opinions, they react on their surroundings (a little hype there, yes). Bad teacher = Subject sucks, Good teacher = Subject is very good and usefull. Not an opinion. Different cases.

But if you "mock" people with real opinions based on some degree of knowledge, where the opinion is "I don't like it." - Well that just makes you ignorant and yes, silly.
On the other hand, "Math is useless" - Mock that. Very mockworthy.

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Online TiYlER

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Re: Math doesn't suck, you do.
« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2012, 01:12:25 PM »
Math is probably one of the most important inventions by man, ever. Try getting anything we have now without it.

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Offline AceD

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Re: Math doesn't suck, you do.
« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2012, 01:14:36 PM »
Exactly! Not giving a fuck about it is the most sound logic. Sure we can all go to drink with buddies and be the cool guy who won the most cash in blackjack because of the superior probability calculation skills. Cool people use math too  ;)
Toushay, although most math boffs are not cool enough to put there skills to this kind of use  :P

Math is probably one of the most important inventions by man, ever. Try getting anything we have now without it.
Yeah....nerds make the world go round, no doubt. However the average geezer who goes to work, then goes out/home afterwards and just wants to have fun, gives a fuck? no he does not.
 

Offline Nikkoru

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Re: Math doesn't suck, you do.
« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2012, 01:14:53 PM »
If you can't use a tool well -- a buggy computer for instance, blue screens of a death galore -- it's human nature to resent the tool. Particularly when you're required to work on it for year after year with each passing one increasing the difficulty.

It's also, for many people, completely unclear as to why they're forcing such effort in the first place. It takes some time to develop an opinion on the usefulness of said tool, and usually that insight comes one way or another long after you're supposed to have obtained some mastery over it.It would be more accurate to say, people hate the associations they've developed when learning and using mathematics. Including the depth of time and effort they're required to exert, the extent to which those efforts fail to yield results, and the monotony of the task involved. Then you add the pressure of grades and teacher, it simply adds another layer of association which people find distressing.

My associations with math lead me to pursuing my skill with it further as a means of problem solving. Nothing is simply neutral in our perceptions, however far those may be from rationality.
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Offline Burkingam

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Re: Math doesn't suck, you do.
« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2012, 01:33:36 PM »
Obligatory:


I personally use algebra in a daily basis even though it's not part of my job and even without counting school, but that's just because I'm a science geek.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 01:35:09 PM by Burkingam »
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Online Bob2004

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Re: Math doesn't suck, you do.
« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2012, 01:47:34 PM »
I don't really get this argument that "Maths is incredibly important to the human race and is responsible for all kinds of important discoveries and inventions, therefore there is no reason to not like using it". Surgeons are incredibly important to humanity too - they save millions of lives, and greatly improve the quality of life for countless more people. But that doesn't mean I have to enjoy slicing people open and fiddling around with their insides.

I respect the many uses of maths, and I think the vast majority of people do. But it's difficult, fiddly, and boring, therefore I don't like having to actually do it. Whether it's a useful tool or not is irrelevant.

Quote from: Nikkoru earlier in this thread
I have no practical knowledge of agriculture, in spite of its impossible importance to our civilization and species for the last 10 thousand years, I don't consider this a character flaw. I'm not going to mock farming, but I'm certainly not going to do a couple months hard labour on a farm to familiarize myself with the practice. I have no interest in it, it's difficult, and from my perspective I have better things to do.

^ Just quoting that because it's pretty much spot on, but most people seem to have ignored it. The usefulness/importance of maths has absolutely no bearing on whether or not people like it. None at all.

As for the bad teacher leads to disliking maths argument - that's perfectly understanable. The first introduction most people get to maths is in school, so it's only logical that whether it's taught well or not has a massive impact on the opinions people form on the subject. The massive effect first impressions have on people is well known - so it makes sense that if the first experience someone has of maths is four years of hell studying a difficult, complicated subject under a horrible, uninteresting teacher, then the opinions they form on maths as a result of that experience will be equally negative. The same goes for any school subject of which students don't have any significant prior experience.

Offline Saras

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Re: Math doesn't suck, you do.
« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2012, 01:51:54 PM »
Math is an interesting subject. Without it, you can't have anything and if it's the only thing you have, you can't have anything either.

Offline Garret02

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Re: Math doesn't suck, you do.
« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2012, 02:35:36 PM »
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I liked maths class. Besides pe and computer class it was the only class where I actually did something and time passed with a normal pace in contrary to the other classes where the hands on the clock just refused to move and I was a brainless zombie. I usually had my homework done before it was even given.

And why is maths "forced" (oh noes we are brutally forced to do maths, oh the woe is me) on everyone in school? Because it teaches how to THINK. It indirectly teaches you to use that thing in your head. In pretty much all other classes you are not required to think, you are required to remember. You just need to copy information from a certain book to the paper without using this book while copying and you get max points. Take maths from school and you will increase the amount of people who don't know how much the brick weights by tenfold :P (A brick weights 1kg and half a brick, how much a brick weights?)

If ponies used more maths, then maybe someponies would have had an easier life:
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« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 02:43:03 PM by Garret02 »