Author Topic: Do They Really Not Make Them Like They Used To?  (Read 3243 times)

Offline AceHigh

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Re: Do They Really Not Make Them Like They Used To?
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2012, 04:05:17 PM »
I don't have a problem with that. If something is good as it is, try not too hard to change it, because you might end up ruining it completely.

For me, I buy games based on an initial impulse when seeing a few screenshots or a short video that make me say: "Yes, I want this", something that happens mostly with jRPGs. If that doesn't happen, I don't care how good another game may be - if I don't get that "good vibration", I cannot enjoy it.

So flashy graphics and hi-def screenshot is your drive to buy games? Oh well, we are all different individuals with different tastes. I have nothing against yours, but I do have something against publishers who only see one demographic and try to appeal to it alone.
For one thing, Tiff is not on any level what I would call a typical American.  She's not what I would consider a typical person.  I don't know any other genius geneticist anime-fan martial artist marksman model-level beauties, do you?

Offline SirSkyRider

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Re: Do They Really Not Make Them Like They Used To?
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2012, 04:07:28 PM »
@1000mAh:The problem (imho) with experimenting today is that making a game and marketing it on a large scale is that it's combined with high costs. You probably could do that on the PC or on handheld consoles, but you probably won't reach that many people.

@AceHigh: Blimey, no. If that were true, I would've fully enjoyed playing Uncharted and Call of Duty – which I didn't.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 04:09:21 PM by SirSkyRider »

Offline 1000mAh

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Re: Do They Really Not Make Them Like They Used To?
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2012, 04:10:26 PM »
@1000mAh:The problem (imho) with experimenting today is that making a game and marketing it on a large scale is that it's combined with high costs. You probably could do that on the PC or on handheld consoles, but you probably won't reach that many people.

exactly, they are afraid of the thing ''what if the games won't sell''

Offline SirSkyRider

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Re: Do They Really Not Make Them Like They Used To?
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2012, 04:13:37 PM »
exactly, they are afraid of the thing ''what if the games won't sell''

Yup. Though the thing is, many games today are sold by building a hype machine around them - but how many publishers or studios have the budget to create such a thing?

Offline 1000mAh

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Re: Do They Really Not Make Them Like They Used To?
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2012, 04:17:18 PM »
exactly, they are afraid of the thing ''what if the games won't sell''

Yup. Though the thing is, many games today are sold by building a hype machine around them - but how many publishers or studios have the budget to create such a thing?

i  think none, and that is a shame.... everything is so money centered today

Offline AceHigh

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Re: Do They Really Not Make Them Like They Used To?
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2012, 04:17:34 PM »
Those who are smart use free advertising thanks to a viral marketing possibilities of the internet and social sites. That is why we see the indie scene getting stronger after all.
For one thing, Tiff is not on any level what I would call a typical American.  She's not what I would consider a typical person.  I don't know any other genius geneticist anime-fan martial artist marksman model-level beauties, do you?

Offline 1000mAh

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Re: Do They Really Not Make Them Like They Used To?
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2012, 04:28:56 PM »
^ I suppose that is true :P can't argument that

Offline Saras

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Re: Do They Really Not Make Them Like They Used To?
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2012, 04:29:39 PM »
I can think of three reasons.

1st. Cost.
Back in the day, most competitive games could be made with a budget that wouldn't be large enough to cover a current day studio's pizza budget.

Show me a game on the SNES or the like that'd cost >50 mil to make, I dare you. Given the low cost and low financial risk, it'd be safe to assume that studios could both tolerate failure and risk. Also, given the low entry cost, a lot of studio's could also allow themselves to produce games for niche markets and still expect a return. You couldn't for example make SH2 now, because you couldn't expect to sell enough units to outweigh the development cost. That is also why a lot of franchises are "ruined" by making them accessibly to the masses, it's done so because otherwise, the game would have to cost 500$ at retail to be worth making, if you could only expect 30 000 - 80 000 copies sold.

2nd. Nostalgia.
We don't remember the shit. We remember what we enjoyed and forgot the shit that was responsible for so many console prints in the wall. We had good games, yes. But not all of them were good. Download an emulator pack and pick a game at random, one which you can't remember, it'll be absolute shite.

3rd. Size.
It's much, much more easier to make a good game if you have a team of 10 people instead of a team of 100. The sheer size of the studio's kind of dilute's the personal touch. You also lose focus.

Offline vicious796

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Re: Do They Really Not Make Them Like They Used To?
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2012, 05:12:01 PM »
I like how the subject of how big studios have become and the size of budgets has been brought up. It's all part of the "normal" business cycle - a company starts small, gets big, and dies. Why? It lost touch with its initial focus (quality products, for example) and started looking at the bottom line.

I also like the recognition of companies considering - most of off - "what if it doesn't sell?" I don't feel as though that was the big concern in the 90s and, truth be told, the budgets could be a reason for that. In 1993, Doom cost some $200k to produce and was among the most expensive games of all time back then. SW:ToR is the most expensive game of all time and it was some $130m.

But that's part of my point on why I feel the way I feel. Square-Enix has a massive budget with departments of talented individuals working on segments of games. You know what? VI kicked 13s ass. With all that money and all that talent, you mean to tell me you can't make a better game? You have professional voice actors giving your characters actual emotion - why is your script so much worse?


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Offline 1000mAh

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Re: Do They Really Not Make Them Like They Used To?
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2012, 05:18:05 PM »
well, now that you mention, games could be better if they would appoint only 10 person for each game, and tru, the devolpment costs nowdays are skyhigh... so, we get back to how everything costs so fuckng much, damn you US

Offline nstgc

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Re: Do They Really Not Make Them Like They Used To?
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2012, 06:30:54 PM »
I agree that we forget a lot of the bad, but there will always be those games that suck. The problem isn't at the low end, its at the high end. The best games use to be magnificent, but now they seem to just seem to be okay. Indie games aside, new games just don't seem have have anything to them. Largely I think they are watered down for a general audience. I mentioned that in another thread and I doubt anyone will argue with that. Not only are they being made for a demographic that can extract enjoyment from merely kicking ass without actually putting any effort into the game. In old games you got a sense of satisfaction because they presented actual challenges. It has also been pointed out that that isn't the only problem. These new games lack spirit. Again, indie games aside, I can't remember the last game I played that actually moved me in any way (that's not true, I felt something reading the dream stories in Lost Odyssey). They are empty husks that present a goal, and are generous at providing tools to accomplish it. In regards the the lack of spirit I think that Saras has a big chuck of the problem down -- the development teams are too large.

I do think some genre's have taken more of a hit than others. The RPG genre has been reduced to shit. The last respectable RPG that I know of was Dragon Age released in 2009, and even that was merely okay. I think a lot of that is due to the mind set of gamers who want action. People say that Dragon Age was boring. I agree, but for different reasons. Turn up the difficulty to nightmare and it starts getting fun. I suspect this isn't the problem most gamers have though. They want to be in the middle of the action, not commanding a small tactical group from above. Dragon Age II is well polished shit, clearly meant to remedy the "problem" most gamer's had with DA:O.

Strategy games seem to have come out a little better. With the demise of Westwood studios, the Command and Conquer series of games is dead (although I'll probably still buy Generals 2 when it drops to $10 assuming the refuse aren't like C&C4's). There seem to be fewer gems in the pile, but they seem to still exist, especially those coming out of Europe. The franchises are dying, but the games are still their. Civ 5 may not be as good as Civ 2 or Alpha Centari (which I think is the best of the lot), but Civ 5 is better than 3 or 4.

Shooters seem to have actually improved. I'm not big of shooters, so I won't comment on them to much, but they do seem better.

The good news is that with digital distribution indie games are coming on strong. Some are even seem to be selling like mainstream games like Endless space with its $30 price tag. The graphics, for the most part still are poor, but they are improving. Hopefully in the next 5 years we will see these indie games that have a lot of the good we grew to expect in older games come into full bloom and displace so many of these lack luster big name games.

[edit] By the way, I think the best thing the big publishers and developers can do at this point is re-release their old games with new graphics, leaving the mechanics and everything else intact. Maybe they could add voice acting for those who refuse to play a game that they have to read.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 06:32:58 PM by nstgc »

Offline Nikkoru

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Re: Do They Really Not Make Them Like They Used To?
« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2012, 06:32:19 PM »
Mostly my criticism of the modern market is based on monotony - every genera is stuffed to the brim, and 90% of it derivative before it even reaches the shelf. Not simply reminiscent of one another, but downright plagiarism. Why would you spend days of your life reading the same story a dozen times over, where only the wording is changed a little each time? Even if you loved the original, even if the new version had an extra chapter, interesting diction, and the romantic relationship ends with the characters that the fans wanted together - it's the same damn story. Still, people will line up for it, they forget their monotony in the small shifts of plot and introductions of new characters - even if the ending and essentially everything else is the same. Independent gaming lets new poets and bards enter your world, some are terrible, and certainly the independent games are almost all one act plays and short stories at the moment, but... but so what? The introduction of new ideas is a building process, elements are broken down and remade - this is what made the old-school games great, not their instant successes but their trails and tribulations, their evolving understanding of what the medium can do or could do.

The "AAA" market can still produce gems, but the desert is getting awful wide to cross to get to them.     I would be happy just seeing less sequels, it's just becoming ridiculous at this point. the NES and SNES never had endless 8 style repetition with their marquee titles, for the most part Mario is awesome from one game to the next, from one system to another - every game feels validated in its own existence. You need a reason to pay 60 dollars for a game other than your affection for the previous title.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 06:34:46 PM by Nikkoru »
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Online Takeshi

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Re: Do They Really Not Make Them Like They Used To?
« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2012, 06:34:50 PM »
But that's part of my point on why I feel the way I feel. Square-Enix has a massive budget with departments of talented individuals working on segments of games. You know what? VI kicked 13s ass. With all that money and all that talent, you mean to tell me you can't make a better game? You have professional voice actors giving your characters actual emotion - why is your script so much worse?
IMO, I see voice acting as something that is much harder to pull off than just putting some text in a bubble. Not trying to defend XIII, the script was bad as hell. Especially in English. Maybe it is easier to look past it with Japanese voices. I think most of us can agree that pretty much any anime becomes worse when it's dubbed.

But yeah, Square Enix should definitely be prioritizing gameplay and story for the upcoming Final Fantasy's.

Offline AceHigh

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Re: Do They Really Not Make Them Like They Used To?
« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2012, 06:36:45 PM »
Nikkoru, did you just happen to see this video (fast forward to 1:40 and start watching from there) before making that comment? Because it reinforces your point.
For one thing, Tiff is not on any level what I would call a typical American.  She's not what I would consider a typical person.  I don't know any other genius geneticist anime-fan martial artist marksman model-level beauties, do you?

Offline nstgc

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Re: Do They Really Not Make Them Like They Used To?
« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2012, 06:45:39 PM »
I don't really care about shooters too much, but the change I'm seeing in the RPG market is not to my liking. I want my old RPGs back.

Offline Ashall

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Re: Do They Really Not Make Them Like They Used To?
« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2012, 07:26:46 PM »
Hmm it seems like we all want them to reinvent the wheel or completely regurgitate the classics. It's the same for books and movies now as well. (I don't know about television since I don't watch it). It's hard to make something new. And even harder to get people to like what is new. An example would be Okami, if any of you played it, you also probably know it was a commercial disaster when it was first released despite being an amazing game.


Offline Nikkoru

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Re: Do They Really Not Make Them Like They Used To?
« Reply #36 on: June 12, 2012, 07:29:26 PM »
Nikkoru, did you just happen to see this video (fast forward to 1:40 and start watching from there) before making that comment? Because it reinforces your point.

I've heard the same criticisms elsewhere about E3 - particularly about the gore fixation. Mostly I keep seeing hyperbolic squeeing for sequels of all sorts, the same ones which riddle the shelf of my local EB games. I want to see more titles which can not be clearly defined in any genera, like Metroid or Zelda.

I don't really care about shooters too much, but the change I'm seeing in the RPG market is not to my liking. I want my old RPGs back.

This in particular is where the dumbing down the game market is evident. I'm sick of having my hand held and getting my game split into a thousand bite sized portions -- if Dragon's Age II, Kingdoms of Amalur and Final Fantasy XIII is any indication of what's coming, then it's terribly depressing. This is symptomatic of all games, a certain amount of ADHD is assumed, where everything is brief and simple.

You can play most modern RPGs while being functionally illiterate, incapable of non-linear problem solving, and with no math skills... but lots of button clicking.   
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Offline AceHigh

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Re: Do They Really Not Make Them Like They Used To?
« Reply #37 on: June 12, 2012, 07:43:46 PM »
Want a challenge? Buy ArmA2 Combined Operations, then install DayZ mod. You get a zombie survival mod built on a realistic military simulation shooter. Now join a server and try to survive agains zombies, bandits and other players who will kill you just so they can loot your stuff, while salvaging ammo, guns, food, water, medical supplies, cars and even helicopters/other military hardware.

According to stats average life expectancy is around half an hour. Good luck surviving  :D
For one thing, Tiff is not on any level what I would call a typical American.  She's not what I would consider a typical person.  I don't know any other genius geneticist anime-fan martial artist marksman model-level beauties, do you?

Offline Saras

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Re: Do They Really Not Make Them Like They Used To?
« Reply #38 on: June 12, 2012, 07:55:37 PM »
I like how the subject of how big studios have become and the size of budgets has been brought up. It's all part of the "normal" business cycle - a company starts small, gets big, and dies. Why? It lost touch with its initial focus (quality products, for example) and started looking at the bottom line.

I also like the recognition of companies considering - most of off - "what if it doesn't sell?" I don't feel as though that was the big concern in the 90s and, truth be told, the budgets could be a reason for that. In 1993, Doom cost some $200k to produce and was among the most expensive games of all time back then. SW:ToR is the most expensive game of all time and it was some $130m.

But that's part of my point on why I feel the way I feel. Square-Enix has a massive budget with departments of talented individuals working on segments of games. You know what? VI kicked 13s ass. With all that money and all that talent, you mean to tell me you can't make a better game? You have professional voice actors giving your characters actual emotion - why is your script so much worse?

Necessity is the mother of innovation. If you need x and you don't have shit, you'll have to figure out a few things.

The more of a budget you have, generally the less focused it is. You get people wanting to add that, and that, and that, why shouldn't you? You've got the cash for it. But because of that, they end up being loosely tied together with no real purpose behind it. The areas become a drag because some artist felt like Michelangelo and wanted to make his own Sixteenth chapel. The narrative becomes convoluted because the writer wanted to do War and Piece, not a direct story of "Get sword" > "Kill that" > "Princess - saved". CG scenes become numerous, long and pointless, because the director felt like making a movie... et cetera.

A good positive example here is portal. Portal started out as a side project by a fairly small team. They didn't have the manpower or the capability to add too many bells and whistles. To finish the game, they had to focus their abilities to create one complete experience, they had to figure out how to do x and just x, because they couldn't have afforded anything else. This leads to a very focused, refined experience and narrative, because they simply couldn't have afforded to do anything else.

Offline nstgc

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Re: Do They Really Not Make Them Like They Used To?
« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2012, 07:59:15 PM »
Hmm it seems like we all want them to reinvent the wheel or completely regurgitate the classics. It's the same for books and movies now as well. (I don't know about television since I don't watch it). It's hard to make something new. And even harder to get people to like what is new. An example would be Okami, if any of you played it, you also probably know it was a commercial disaster when it was first released despite being an amazing game.

Its not that I want them to simply throw out the same games that they were "back-in-the-day", its just that that is the only way I can foresee any decent RPGs being made. Solving the key problems would be enough (games lack spirit, insult my intelligence, and and aren't as rewarding), but even then, I'm not a fan of these new breeds of action RPGs. The hack and slash seen in NWN is fine, so long as the battle remains tactics oriented, as opposed to beating shit up. I want new games, but I also realize that with this new generation of gamers, that won't happen in the RPG market. That's why I just want them to remake old games.

[edit] I just glanced through Steam and it doesn't look like any major companies have actually even made a real RPG in at least 2 years.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 08:03:28 PM by nstgc »