Discussion Forums > Technology
Encoding software
Bob2004:
Sorry; I honestly can't remember which player it was I heard about, or where I heard about it, so I can't help you there :-\
However (and hopefully someone more knowledgeable here will correct me if I'm wrong), I'm fairly certain that the only thing in high-end anime encodes (not 10-bit, of course) which most hardware players can't handle (and which is the only reason they have to be flagged as level 5.0 instead of 4.1) is the number of reference frames they use; level 4.1 is limited to 4 for 1080p content (9 for 720p), whereas level 5 can go up to 13. Groups like Coalgirls tend to use ~8, which stops the majority of hardware players which only support level 4.1 from being able to play the video. It doesn't actually have a massive impact on quality (IMO), but that's the way it is.
However, I think that there are a few players that can handle more reference frames than the level 4.1 spec requires, even if they don't support the other features of level 5.0 (I think that was probably the case with the player I heard about). Try asking in forums like Doom9, where people know a lot more about this stuff, or try contacting the manufacturers to find that out; you might get further than when just asking about which levels they support, since I imagine 99% of hardware players all just support High Profile up to level 4.1, and that's it. The level 5.0 spec requires players to be able to handle bitrates up to 168.75Mb/s, which is way beyond what anyone would ever use normally, which is why none support it.
But yeah, I'm sure there are a few hardware players that can handle the extra reference frames, and which aren't bothered by the Level 5.0 flag - those are likely the only ones capable of handling most anime releases without re-encoding them to meet the 4.1 specs, unfortunately.
EDIT: I just had a quick glance at random through some of the releases I have on my PC at the moment, and it actually looks like only about half the groups I looked at exceed the level 4.1 spec anyway, so it's not all bad. And I should also mention that the number of reference frames a player can handle depends on the resolution of the video; lower resolutions allow for more reference frames, hence why the specification sets out different numbers for 720p and 1080p content.
kitamesume:
simply put, Hi10P is not a step-back or is it a horrible choice of encode, it's pros out-weights its cons tremendously.
even if it does require more muscle to decode its only natural that way, a few years ago when people still used pentium4 it felt as if you could play anything on it, now a day's program would make that pentium4 crawl, its the same concept.
people clinging to their old ancient rigs need not to be stingy and shell off a buck to get a new rig for the purpose of more processing capability and sometimes even less power consumption while at it.
people who bought the low power rigs did a bad choice, if they did their research correctly they could've bought something better with not much compensation, for example the celeron E3300 was an overclockable dual core that uses barely higher wattage but retains it's processing muscle, now's newly released G530 is even more efficient while increasing performance and undervolting it further makes it the ideal choice.
on topic: i havent re-encoded anything for years now and the last encoder i used was handbrake, what i grab doesn't need to be re-encoded anyway.
Krudda:
There is also the option to just pay for the original DVD/Bluray 8)
Helmet:
--- Quote from: Bob2004 on June 28, 2012, 06:50:43 PM ---
However, I think that there are a few players that can handle more reference frames than the level 4.1 spec requires, even if they don't support the other features of level 5.0 (I think that was probably the case with the player I heard about). Try asking in forums like Doom9, where people know a lot more about this stuff, or try contacting the manufacturers to find that out; you might get further than when just asking about which levels they support, since I imagine 99% of hardware players all just support High Profile up to level 4.1, and that's it. The level 5.0 spec requires players to be able to handle bitrates up to 168.75Mb/s, which is way beyond what anyone would ever use normally, which is why none support it.
But yeah, I'm sure there are a few hardware players that can handle the extra reference frames, and which aren't bothered by the Level 5.0 flag - those are likely the only ones capable of handling most anime releases without re-encoding them to meet the 4.1 specs, unfortunately.
--- End quote ---
Well, what annoys me the most in this is the scarcity of information on compatibility related issues. I know that media hardware are not compatible with all video formats and codecs. I expected that. What gets on my nerves is the impossibility to find the exact specs. For instance, one friend of mine has a 32 inch LG TV with media player incorporated which supports 5.0 and 5.1 (the model does not interest me though, because it does not support ASS subtitles, which are the ones used mostly in anime). But there seems to be no chance in hell to find out what each media hardware (be it blu-ray player, media player or TV) can do before buying it and testing it yourself.
--- Quote ---I just had a quick glance at random through some of the releases I have on my PC at the moment, and it actually looks like only about half the groups I looked at exceed the level 4.1 spec anyway, so it's not all bad.
--- End quote ---
Well, no, it's not THAT bad. That's why I said that re-encoding them myself is a realistic option if I find a proper tool, having in mind that the number of incompatible releases is only a part of the total (I caught on to the limitations more than a year ago, hence I avoided Hi10, 5.0 or 5.1 since then, but there is still a good number left) and the speed of my CPU.
--- Quote ---simply put, Hi10P is not a step-back or is it a horrible choice of encode, it's pros out-weights its cons tremendously.
--- End quote ---
Dude, give it up, now you are just being obtuse. In light of Bob's technical explanation, what pros are you talking about - for the end user at least?
--- Quote ---even if it does require more muscle to decode its only natural that way, a few years ago when people still used pentium4 it felt as if you could play anything on it, now a day's program would make that pentium4 crawl, its the same concept.
people clinging to their old ancient rigs need not to be stingy and shell off a buck to get a new rig for the purpose of more processing capability and sometimes even less power consumption while at it.
people who bought the low power rigs did a bad choice, if they did their research correctly they could've bought something better with not much compensation, for example the celeron E3300 was an overclockable dual core that uses barely higher wattage but retains it's processing muscle, now's newly released G530 is even more efficient while increasing performance and undervolting it further makes it the ideal choice.
--- End quote ---
Lol at this. What do you think "lack of compatibility with media hardware" means? There is no "old ancient rig" to cling to, because there is no new modern rig to run Hi10P, nor will it be in the near future. What do you think that "media hardware" refers to?
What does Pentium 4 have anything to do with all this? The problem and the complaints stem from the fact that Hi10 cannot work of any kind of media hardware - except sheer CPU power from desktop/laptops. If you know of any, I'm all ears. Rant all you want, you are never going to convince me that using a format which makes video files impossible to be played on any video dedicated hardware is a sensible choice, regardless of what benefits, real or imaginary, it provides - it's either utterly stupid or utterly selfish.
It seems the people I quoted earlier were right in calling some of the Hi10P fans as "pigheaded". Just think of the absurdity of the situation: it makes video files impossible to play... on video dedicated hardware.
This is just not normal - a video file, be it anime or something else, is not Battlefield 3 or Skyrim. What some anime groups have done is the equivalent of Activison, EA and Bioware suddenly implementing in their games a kind of new software which would not be supported by any of the videocards on the market, nor the consoles, but only by the MacIntosh PCs. Can you imagine the outrage if that were to happen?
It would not matter if that software were the most revolutionary thing since the discovery of fire. People who don't use MacIntosh for gaming (or at all) would be pissed - and rightly so.
Again, I know the deal and I know, like Bob, that we are not going to change the minds of the encoders on this. But don't feed me Hi10P propaganda, will you (and poor one to boot)?
As for your comment that "people should stop clinging to their old rig", for your record, I have an Intel I5-2500K at 3.3 GHz, with ATI 6950, 8 GB RAM and 2 TB of space. That's more than enough power to run any video I throw at it. But has it crossed your mind that many people would prefer for entire classes of hardware not to be completely excluded from the equation - and for no benefit they can relate to? Or that many people would prefer that their choice of hardware to watch animes on not to be shoved down their throats? (Classic situation: someone wants to watch a video on big screen TV, but their desktop is in their office, the TV in the living room; many other scenarios can be imagined).
--- Quote ---There is also the option to just pay for the original DVD/Bluray
--- End quote ---
Well, for what interests me, there is no original DVD/Blu-Ray... unless I learn japanese.
kitamesume:
@helmet, did you just miss my whole point? im saying that bitching about Hi10P wont help you at all, since encoders wont be going back to the older encodes because they see more pros by going with it, and people who cant play Hi10P shouldn't cling to their ugly rigs anyway. thats what i've been saying.
end user's gain for going Hi10P would be the less likely they'd get a horrible encode than the latter because the encoders would less likely stumble upon an "oops my bad, horrible choice of settings so you download the swap again without complaining mmkay?", which from experience tends to get swapped, or compared to other encoder's works almost regularly.
a lesser gain would be a more compact file size, not always the case hence a lesser gain. do note that a compact file size doesn't only mean less storage space would be needed, but also less time for it to finish downloading on a slower line.
its the same with the old times, newer softwares needs more hardware power, if this wasn't the case then people wouldn't be needing anything better than a pentium4, and its the same with encodes. how is it same with encodes? AVI/DIVX to Matroska, when Matroska first got implemented nothing could play it other than a PC.
as for hardware players, they're old technology and they got caught in an evolution. what do you think would happen if H265 gets implemented as a standard? it would be worse off than Hi10P and those old hardware players would become total junks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Efficiency_Video_Coding
--- Quote ---Schedule
The timescale for completing the HEVC standard is as follows:
February 2012: Committee Draft (complete draft of standard)
July 2012: Draft International Standard
January 2013: Final Draft International Standard (ready to be ratified as a Standard)
--- End quote ---
but do wait for ARM powered hardware players, seems like one of the ARMs can handle 1080p Hi10P, shouldnt be long before they got manufactured.
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