Author Topic: Western Digital or Seagate  (Read 13132 times)

Offline limefc

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Re: Western Digital or Seagate
« Reply #260 on: August 28, 2012, 07:24:56 PM »
Buys
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SAMSUNG EcoGreen F4 ST2000DL004 2TB 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive
Gets
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SAMSUNG EcoGreen F4 ST2000DL004 2TB 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive

Credibility down the drain. It clearly says it's a ST2000DL004. And you were trying to prove to me that this person was not an idiot? He bought 3 drives without knowing what they really were and not only that, but he bought 3 2TB drives which are generally known for less than stellar reliability. Even Samsung ones.

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Apparently you have such a low opinion of common people that you think they don't know something's wrong when files on their hard drive are constantly getting corrupted or something.
Yeah, something is wrong. What you fail to realize is that this something may not be to do with hard drives at all. For example, I had my RAM run massively out of spec during a few tests and it caused significant enough data corruption on my HDD necessitating a reformat.

Also that's unimportant. Returns are a large set of data involving thousands, tens of thousands of drives while a pleb is only going to have ~10 drives at his disposal all within a static environment. If an outside factor is killing his drives, he will get skewed statistics while the ones tested by a technician will come from multiple sources and in large numbers.



« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 07:27:14 PM by limefc »

Offline xShadow

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Re: Western Digital or Seagate
« Reply #261 on: August 28, 2012, 08:25:39 PM »
Buys
Quote
SAMSUNG EcoGreen F4 ST2000DL004 2TB 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive
Gets
Quote
SAMSUNG EcoGreen F4 ST2000DL004 2TB 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive

Credibility down the drain. It clearly says it's a ST2000DL004. And you were trying to prove to me that this person was not an idiot? He bought 3 drives without knowing what they really were and not only that, but he bought 3 2TB drives which are generally known for less than stellar reliability. Even Samsung ones.

Can I facepalm much harder right now? You decide based on your follow-up.


That's not what that Samsung model was originally called on newegg. =_=;
This is:
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1 x ($79.99) HD 2T|SAMSUNG HD204UI % - OEM $79.99
(straight from my invoice a few years back).
I'm glad they at least finally changed it to reflect what you're actually fucking getting. IIRC it used to just be listed as the same drive while in actuality being something different.

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Yeah, something is wrong. What you fail to realize is that this something may not be to do with hard drives at all. For example, I had my RAM run massively out of spec during a few tests and it caused significant enough data corruption on my HDD necessitating a reformat.
I was just using that as a random example of something that could indicate hard disk failure. Good god you're so linear. I respond with X as an example of something going wrong, you ONLY respond to X as if that's all I'm talking about.

I know you're talking about little outlying random factors that could also lead to symptoms similar to hard drive failure. They exist. But they're not nearly as likely as actual hard drive failure.

Hard drives are the least reliable part in any computer system. I have a teacher here with a PHD (I'm a computer engineering student in my senior year) who just said that right in front of me.

If there's something like hard drive failure going on in your system... it's probably hard drive failure. Period.

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Also that's unimportant. Returns are a large set of data involving thousands, tens of thousands of drives while a pleb is only going to have ~10 drives at his disposal all within a static environment. If an outside factor is killing his drives, he will get skewed statistics while the ones tested by a technician will come from multiple sources and in large numbers.

You use multiple "plebs", not one. Law of large numbers states that lots of plebs will generally head towards the actual mean. The things that you stated that may skew data is something will largely be taken care of by using a lot of reviews.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 08:39:07 PM by xShadow »

Cute, huh?

Offline limefc

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Re: Western Digital or Seagate
« Reply #262 on: August 28, 2012, 09:24:39 PM »
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(straight from my invoice a few years back).
You aren't very good with dates, are you? I am 100% sure that his review was posted in 2012年5月. Had you "forgot" to mention that your invoice was a few years old or instead claimed it was from 5 months back, I might have been forced to question or yield to you instead of laughing but alas.

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Hard drives are the least reliable part in any computer system. I have a teacher here with a PHD (I'm a computer engineering student in my senior year) who just said that right in front of me.
Sure. Now can you explain how that is not a red herring?

From a personal curiosity standpoint, can you also explain why, as a senior engineering student, are you arguing with someone that has an ego the size of a small nation and disposition of a brick wall about credibility of Newegg plebs en masse, cherry picked or otherwise and quality vs warranty when you know that there is no correlation between warranty and quality and arguing about newegg comments or using them for anything more than problems & solutions is about as productive as submitting childrens colouring books as your source material for an essay on nuclear physics?
This is not a "winnable" argument.

You were smart in asking "what did I get myself into", but curiously not smart enough to react to that thought.

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You use multiple "plebs", not one. Law of large numbers states that lots of plebs will generally head towards the actual mean. The things that you stated that may skew data is something will largely be taken care of by using a lot of reviews.
How about I just rely on reputable sites reporting the large failers instead? It's not like Seagate 7200.11 firmware problem was widely unknown, or the general 2TB reliability issues rarely talked about.

Incidentally. The Seagate drive that replaces the EcoGreen F4 (which was also known as a failer although not as massive as Barracuda XT 2TB) was a LP not an XT I believe, so the avg failure rate only barely increased. Heh.
Seriously, the EcoGreen F4 sucked. These days people are just mad that they are getting a "Seagate piece of shit" instead of a Samsung piece of shit. Being the best 2TB drive is like being the best piece of shit, a somewhat useless title.

People in the know only cared about the F3s.

Offline xShadow

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Re: Western Digital or Seagate
« Reply #263 on: August 28, 2012, 09:43:40 PM »
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(straight from my invoice a few years back).
You aren't very good with dates, are you? I am 100% sure that his review was posted in 2012年5月. Had you "forgot" to mention that your invoice was a few years old or instead claimed it was from 5 months back, I might have been forced to question or yield to you instead of laughing but alas.

*Facepalm*
What I'm saying is that the model number probably was not changed UNTIL RECENTLY. I was checking back on that model occasionally since I bought it and I don't remember them relabeling it until recently.


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Sure. Now can you explain how that is not a red herring?

What, like the fact that you even started picking out that aspect of what I was talking about rather than acknowledging the fact that the HARD DRIVE HAD A DIFFERENT FUCKING MODEL SO YOUR ASSERTION THAT SEAGATE =/= SAMSUNG WAS QUESTIONABLE ANYWAY?

Nice diversion on your part, too. I still went along with it, but you're pointing out mine?

As for how it's not a "red herring". A part of the basis of your entire argument was how hard drive failure could be attributed to many things, and I just pointed out that it's extremely unlikely.

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From a personal curiosity standpoint, can you also explain why, as a senior engineering student, are you arguing with someone that has an ego the size of a small nation and disposition of a brick wall about credibility of Newegg plebs en masse, cherry picked or otherwise and quality vs warranty when you know that there is no correlation between warranty and quality and arguing about newegg comments or using them for anything more than problems & solutions is about as productive as submitting childrens colouring books as your source material for an essay on nuclear physics?
The better question is why I'm arguing with someone like you, who obviously has the ego of a large nation and a brick wall in his head to match China's.


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You were smart in asking "what did I get myself into", but curiously not smart enough to react to that thought.

I asked myself that as a rhetorical question. I knew this was gonna be annoying.

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How about I just rely on reputable sites reporting the large failers instead? It's not like Seagate 7200.11 firmware problem was widely unknown, or the general 2TB reliability issues rarely talked about.

Reputable sites? Okay. Go for it.

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Incidentally. The Seagate drive that replaces the EcoGreen F4 (which was also known as a failer although not as massive as Barracuda XT 2TB) was a LP not an XT I believe, so the avg failure rate only barely increased. Heh.
Seriously, the EcoGreen F4 sucked. These days people are just mad that they are getting a "Seagate piece of shit" instead of a Samsung piece of shit. Being the best 2TB drive is like being the best piece of shit, a somewhat useless title.

Whatever you say. Incidentally, that's also beside the point because the main point of this was that Samsung is different in reliability than they used to be and your study was outdated. Which it is. Case proven. Case closed.

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People in the know only cared about the F3s.

I'll stay away from people in the know then, because I've never had a hard drive fail on me and I'm happy with how it's been going.


Edit: I removed profanity, which is being a little too nice for your case.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 09:49:55 PM by xShadow »

Cute, huh?

Offline Tatsujin

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Re: Western Digital or Seagate
« Reply #264 on: August 28, 2012, 10:28:15 PM »
Eh.... Didn't you tell me to get WD Elements?
Oh that's stupid of me. Yes, the WD Elements is for external. As for the WD black edition, that's for internal usage.
Whew.... relieved... i almost started doing the calculations and stuff to buy that Disk....
What are these Guys saying about WD Black Having a high return rate? I Thought Black Along with Velociraptor were the best Western Digital internal HDD.
WD black editions are fine. I also only have 4 of the Elements. One of them is 1.5TB the other 3 are 2TB. I have 4 WD notebooks, 2 failed and the other 2 are still running. Those were great back then but now we're seeing (as consumers) flaws in the notebooks ... don't bother with any notebook series. Elements is the way to go.


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Offline Dhruv

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Re: Western Digital or Seagate
« Reply #265 on: August 29, 2012, 03:59:14 AM »
WD black editions are fine. I also only have 4 of the Elements. One of them is 1.5TB the other 3 are 2TB. I have 4 WD notebooks, 2 failed and the other 2 are still running. Those were great back then but now we're seeing (as consumers) flaws in the notebooks ... don't bother with any notebook series. Elements is the way to go.
Do you have any idea which drive they use inside Elements? Is it Green?
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Offline Tatsujin

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Re: Western Digital or Seagate
« Reply #266 on: August 29, 2012, 04:45:39 AM »
WD black editions are fine. I also only have 4 of the Elements. One of them is 1.5TB the other 3 are 2TB. I have 4 WD notebooks, 2 failed and the other 2 are still running. Those were great back then but now we're seeing (as consumers) flaws in the notebooks ... don't bother with any notebook series. Elements is the way to go.
Do you have any idea which drive they use inside Elements? Is it Green?
Yes.


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Offline Dhruv

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Re: Western Digital or Seagate
« Reply #267 on: August 29, 2012, 05:00:55 AM »
Yes.
Then there is no difference between this and a regular Green drive.... then why do people say Green drives are shit?
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Offline Freedom Kira

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Re: Western Digital or Seagate
« Reply #268 on: August 29, 2012, 05:09:39 AM »
... Are you seriously asking that? The answer to that has been beaten to death and back, just in this thread.

Green drives are simply the best for power-saving. That's why it's in their externals, which are not expected to be used as heavily as internal drives. That's really all it is.

Offline Dhruv

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Re: Western Digital or Seagate
« Reply #269 on: August 29, 2012, 05:31:45 AM »
Ohhh.... I'll be probably using it heavily....
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Offline limefc

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Re: Western Digital or Seagate
« Reply #270 on: August 29, 2012, 05:33:43 AM »
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*Facepalm*
What I'm saying is that the model number probably was not changed UNTIL RECENTLY. I was checking back on that model occasionally since I bought it and I don't remember them relabeling it until recently.
You have nothing to suggest this to be the case. Do you have a dated record of what the number was 3 months ago? Because to me it looks like it was properly changed and the dude just fucked up on his buying.

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What, like the fact that you even started picking out that aspect of what I was talking about rather than acknowledging the fact that the HARD DRIVE HAD A DIFFERENT FUCKING MODEL SO YOUR ASSERTION THAT SEAGATE =/= SAMSUNG WAS QUESTIONABLE ANYWAY?
I think you have no idea what you're saying at this point, because I believe blatantly pointing out a model number is just short of outright acknowledging that fact.

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Nice diversion on your part, too. I still went along with it, but you're pointing out mine?
Your incapability to notice diversions and acting based on them before I start pointing them out is frankly not a concern of mine.

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The better question is why I'm arguing with someone like you, who obviously has the ego of a large nation and a brick wall in his head to match China's.
Why are you regurgitating what I said?

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Reputable sites? Okay. Go for it.
Done. Page 12.

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Whatever you say. Incidentally, that's also beside the point because the main point of this was that Samsung is different in reliability than they used to be and your study was outdated. Which it is. Case proven. Case closed.
What you should be proving here is what you set out to prove initially instead of "case closing" arguments while half-proving a diversion (don't forget, this one had two halves only one of which you've adequately proven) which is fine and all since I was the one who went along with it... but I am still waiting.

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Edit: I removed profanity, which is being a little too nice for your case.
Smart move. Acting like a child isn't going to get you anywhere, although you probably shouldn't have told me that you removed it because that defeats the purpose of removing it. The fact that you used profanity in your unedited post is just going to rub me the right way.

Offline xShadow

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Re: Western Digital or Seagate
« Reply #271 on: August 29, 2012, 06:11:17 AM »

You have nothing to suggest this to be the case. Do you have a dated record of what the number was 3 months ago? Because to me it looks like it was properly changed and the dude just fucked up on his buying.

You have nothing to suggest against it. Honestly this is just arguing about some random guy at this point, which is really fucking stupid. I just know that right when Samsung got bought out by Seagate, and for a good time thereafter, I'm pretty sure their labels on Newegg weren't updated. At this point, neither of us know the truth.

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I think you have no idea what you're saying at this point, because I believe blatantly pointing out a model number is just short of outright acknowledging that fact.

I think you have no idea what I'm saying. Hehehe.

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Your incapability to notice diversions and acting based on them before I start pointing them out is frankly not a concern of mine.

... You never pointed that one out. I did. Not that I care at this point.

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Why are you regurgitating what I said?

Why not?

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Done. Page 12.

I don't see anything reputable on page 12. I believe that's what this entire diversionary argument was about. It's out of date.

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What you should be proving here is what you set out to prove initially instead of "case closing" arguments while half-proving a diversion (don't forget, this one had two halves only one of which you've adequately proven) which is fine and all since I was the one who went along with it... but I am still waiting.

I don't even know what I'm trying to prove against you anymore, honestly, or what you think my main point actually is. I'm starting to not give a shit because this just keeps going in circles.

Here's the basic status:

Are consumer reviews valid?
Me: Yes, I believe humans are at least that smart.
You: No, everyone but me is a fucking idiot.
Definitive answer: Not possible without data we don't have. As in, no one did a study on how many drives were returned that actually weren't dead, to test how valid consumer reports truly are.

Is there a better source for this type of data?
Me: IDK but it's not a study that's outdated.
You: Yes, THIS ONE SITE MADE FROM DATA FROM JUST ONE PARTICULAR DEALER IN FRANCE IS SO FUCKING AWESOME EVEN THOUGH THE HARD DRIVE MARKET HAS CHANGED SINCE THEN.
Definitive answer: There's no follow up study to see if that study is still valid. So no one knows. However at the very least Samsung's drives have been changed in terms of model number to Seagate's scheme. So something about the study is outdated. However, no one's done testing on the new Samsung drives compared to old. So again no one knows.

Warranty=Quality?
Me + Kira: There is correlation between long warranty and quality on something like a hard disk. If a company put out a shitty drive with a 5 year warranty, it would go bankrupt quickly.
You: No.
Definitive answer: There is none.

We're arguing about things that have no definitive answer, so naturally both of these points come down to one of us going yes and the other going no every single post because we've both stated all the points we have, and then we're going to keep restating them in different ways. I've seen that happen a lot before. I usually end up dropping out at that point and looking like the "loser" (because we all know the guy that stops arguing on the internet is the one that lost the debate).

Should I just start responding to all of your points with "yes" or "no" and seeing how many pages we get this to before the topic gets closed by a mod?

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Smart move. Acting like a child isn't going to get you anywhere, although you probably shouldn't have told me that you removed it because that defeats the purpose of removing it. The fact that you used profanity in your unedited post is just going to rub me the right way.

Yes, and you using copious amounts of personal attacks on me in your last post was extremely mature. I'll be sure to follow your example when I want to not act "like a child" in the future.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 06:24:34 AM by xShadow »

Cute, huh?

Offline limefc

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Re: Western Digital or Seagate
« Reply #272 on: August 29, 2012, 07:23:09 AM »
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Should I just start responding to all of your points with "yes" or "no" and seeing how many pages we get this to before the topic gets closed by a mod?
I'm game.

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I think you have no idea what I'm saying. Hehehe.
Then perhaps you should correct yourself to be clear. Although on second thought, it won't be necessary as you will promptly find out.

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Yes, and you using copious amounts of personal attacks on me in your last post was extremely mature. I'll be sure to follow your example when I want to not act "like a child" in the future.
Pffff hahahahaha. Funny. The only one time I don't hide ad-hominem fallacies into my arguments and I get falsely called out on it. Ironic. Nobody ever calls me out when I actually weave in blatantly obvious ad-hominems.

Anyway, there are no personal attacks in that post. I didn't address the argument, just made a remark and a compliment on your self-alleged behaviour and change which did not affect my argumentation (or lack thereof).

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Why not?
Because of what you just pointed out, actually. When you do it, it becomes an abusive ad-hominem also known as a personal attack. Funny, isn't it?

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We're arguing about things that have no definitive answer, so naturally both of these points come down to one of us going yes and the other going no every single post because we've both stated all the points we have, and then we're going to keep restating them in different ways. I've seen that happen a lot before. I usually end up dropping out at that point and looking like the "loser" (because we all know the guy that stops arguing on the internet is the one that lost the debate).
Technically, the one who stops arguing in a unresolvable argument is the mature one, although that's not exactly what I am aiming for.

But, you know what, why not. I am not getting much out of this anymore so I concede. We clearly cannot reach an agreement so I agree to disagree. You made your point, I'm sorry I can't see it your way.
I would have a considerably higher opinion of you if you didn't subscribe to the mantra that the one who drops a stupid argument is a "loser" and dropped it before it ever went so far as to force you to conclude that it's an argument not worth having. That is the truth, I have limitless time, no real point and no reason to yield. Comparing myself to a brick wall was an apt comparison.
Not to imply you should care about what I think by the by.

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Offline xShadow

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Re: Western Digital or Seagate
« Reply #273 on: August 29, 2012, 01:39:51 PM »
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... you didn't subscribe to the mantra that the one who drops a stupid argument is a "loser" and dropped it before it ever went so far as to force you to conclude that it's an argument not worth having.

I wasn't pointing out what I thought. I was pointing out what I think (and not without reason) a lot of the online community believes.

And I knew it was going to end up this way a bit before I said "God dammit what did I get myself caught up in this time..." Some fair portion of this was me trying to half-ass it enough to just make you annoyed enough to call me an idiot and stop arguing. That didn't quite work, but I think if I kept at it and tried to deflect everything you said as much as possible (with some brilliant strategy such as saying "NOWAILOLOLO" every time), it might have... but if I went too far it seriously would have made me look like a retard.

From there on, it's pretty much a war of attrition. Which is annoying, because I have embedded systems to fuck with. As in, the first lab's out, and I need to do it. So I decided to blatantly try to wrap this up. And it worked. Yay!

Cute, huh?

Offline Tatsujin

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Re: Western Digital or Seagate
« Reply #274 on: August 31, 2012, 03:54:04 AM »
Yes.
Then there is no difference between this and a regular Green drive.... then why do people say Green drives are shit?
I don't know. But Elements have high ratings for an external. The Internal probably works different than external HDDs (not the HDD themselves, but how the computer operates on internal vs. external).


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Offline Dhruv

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Re: Western Digital or Seagate
« Reply #275 on: August 31, 2012, 04:32:24 AM »
Yes.
Then there is no difference between this and a regular Green drive.... then why do people say Green drives are shit?
I don't know. But Elements have high ratings for an external. The Internal probably works different than external HDDs (not the HDD themselves, but how the computer operates on internal vs. external).
I plan to use it 24x7.... so almost like an internal... So I may look at Black in an external enclosure too.
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Offline Freedom Kira

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Re: Western Digital or Seagate
« Reply #276 on: August 31, 2012, 07:12:37 AM »
I don't know. But Elements have high ratings for an external. The Internal probably works different than external HDDs (not the HDD themselves, but how the computer operates on internal vs. external).

Aside from the drives running more slowly (if not USB 3.0) and being ejectable, and perhaps being mounted onto a letter after everything internal is assigned a letter, there's not much else that's different.

Offline Tatsujin

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Re: Western Digital or Seagate
« Reply #277 on: September 01, 2012, 05:34:20 AM »
Yes.
Then there is no difference between this and a regular Green drive.... then why do people say Green drives are shit?
I don't know. But Elements have high ratings for an external. The Internal probably works different than external HDDs (not the HDD themselves, but how the computer operates on internal vs. external).
I plan to use it 24x7.... so almost like an internal... So I may look at Black in an external enclosure too.
If you're doing either/and storing videos, music and pictures, then green edition is fine. You can play the media file from there without problems, too. If you're doing anything else besides that, like encoding off or on the hard drive, installing programs, OS, running off programs off of it, using it for RAM space (or whatever), then green edition is not a good choice. Green editions are only for media that needs large space - that's it.


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Offline Dhruv

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Re: Western Digital or Seagate
« Reply #278 on: September 01, 2012, 06:02:26 AM »
I plan to use it 24x7.... so almost like an internal... So I may look at Black in an external enclosure too.
If you're doing either/and storing videos, music and pictures, then green edition is fine. You can play the media file from there without problems, too. If you're doing anything else besides that, like encoding off or on the hard drive, installing programs, OS, running off programs off of it, using it for RAM space (or whatever), then green edition is not a good choice. Green editions are only for media that needs large space - that's it.
I might play some touhou games... :/
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Offline sausuke

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Re: Western Digital or Seagate
« Reply #279 on: September 01, 2012, 09:30:40 AM »
I have a forum friend using WD WDC MyBook (Essentials) 3.5" USB3.0, 2TB.. it failed on him same with caviar blue on the same day here some screenshots: from 100% health to this

<<< those head parking sucks



he already sold that external and he said he never go back to WD because of that.. me also as an WD user I experience slowness in my caviar blue *already sold it*.. so for me avoid caviar blue and green *internal or external* they sucks head parking per 8 seconds that causes wear and tear