Discussion Forums > Politics
Todd Akin wants abortion banned for rape victims
Nikkoru:
--- Quote from: Ixarku on August 24, 2012, 09:54:56 AM ---
--- Quote from: Nikkoru on August 24, 2012, 05:05:58 AM ---You misogynistic bastard.
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And here I've been hoping you tag in on this debate. I've been fighting off the wolves, but they've been wearing me down.
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Look, if women see all stages of human life as sacrosanct, and believe its a moral imperative that potential human life be preserved, that's fine. You're free not to have an abortion if you get pregnant, you can even try to convince others of this viewpoint if you so choose. Many will listen with welcoming ears, even among the areligious. I don't think that position is unreasonable until it becomes intractable, absolute, and political. I maintain that the State has no right deciding what occurs in or around the reproductive organs of its citizens, it never has and never will.
Instead of trying to bully women and medical professionals who disagree with them at every turn, why not try an affirmative and compassionate approach to fellow human beings? As in, provide for the circumstances of mothers when they are in need of it. Or just be considerate to the least among you. Provide credibility to claims that you indeed love life and wish to preserve it, something more tangibly beneficial to the human condition than the venal indignities some states are subjecting women seeking abortions to in the U.S. We're all alive now, here, make this less miserable.
This is much the same argument for Gay marriage, I'm perfectly sanguine with you not marrying another male, that's fine with me. Rather than worrying about other's love, show attention and care to your own spouse and embrace the love which you share.
I don't really have more to say on the subject.
elvikun:
--- Quote from: Ixarku on August 24, 2012, 09:54:56 AM ---
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--- Quote from: elvikun on August 24, 2012, 02:52:23 AM ---Admittedly, I might have a little too "cold" approach to the matter, but even if I, for the sake of debate, would believe that pro-life has absolutely nothing to do with religious influence, then I still cannot see how you can value a life that could eventually exist, because then you'll get into the bad spot where you have to consider all things that "could be" as valid, just to avoid totally contradicting yourself.
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I'm definitely not saying that pro-lifers aren't influenced by religion. That's well-established. I do think it's possible to be pro-life without being religious though, simply because one does have to be religious to place a value on human life. Again, I think it be can crystallized down to a moral decision. I suppose if I thought it was moral for me to impose my beliefs on someone else, that there was a morality that transcended human decision, then I might be a pro-lifer. Fortunately, I don't believe in either of those things, so I come down squarely on the pro-choice side. I won't argue further on the 'it may or may not be a person' aspect, since I think we're at impasse there.
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Well, yes, as the clishe goes, let's agree that we partially disagree, because I'm not sure that there actually is a definition that is "the" truth at this point.
Either way, what I meant now is that the "inherent right to life" (despite of what and when you define as a human being) might actually sound more complelling and rational than the usual "blah-blah is sacred blah blah", but it really isn't - it just deals in the nice looking business of what "could eventually be", which is pretty much synonymous to "maybe if" and makes it about as valid statement as "Maybe it would all make sense if aliens created us" at which most people just laugh.
--- Quote from: Burkingam on August 24, 2012, 10:47:44 AM ---Since the "what's a person" argument is bringing us to an impass, I will bring another which you might find more convincing.
If someone is dying and needs a new liver to survive, nobody has the legal obligation to give this person their one, not even if there is only one person on earth whose blood-type is compatible with him and it just so happen to be his/her parent, not even if this is the result to a road accident and his/her parent was one of the two drivers. You are simply of no legal obligation to give part of your body to someone else, especially if it would impact your own health.
Do you see where I'm coming? Pregnancy forces a women to provide part of her body to a fetus, in a way that could irreversibly damage her health or even kill her, rarely, and yet if she wants an abortion it's usually because the pregnancy is part of an accident.
Some people try to refute this argument by pointing out that the women was only taking this risk to gain sexual pleasure (except in the case of a rape) and so she should take the responsibility of her act, but again, if a driver is using his car to go eat an icecream, he's also taking a risk just for to gain some culinary pleasure and yet if someone gets hit by his car and the victim needs a new liver, nobody is trying to force him to give his own.
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Well, it might sound like an extreme argument to some, but it really isn't. This is just the good old "women control" and "Women do not have the right to have sex, unless it's for the sole purpose of pleasing a man or bearing a child" I mentioned earlier. It's that simple and that terrible.
It has it's merits tho, for example when you see a man argue along those lines "Yeah, they shouldn't be slutty, then they wouldn't need abortions! Ban that!", then you can almost instantly know the person is an huge, ignorant imbecile (And that is not just a random offense, by that I literally mean they are likely to be of weaker mind, uninfomed and inproperly raised to boot), without spending too much time talking with them.
On a different note, I'd say the irreversible damage and possible danger play a big role in many of the decisions. Magic of birth my ass, I'll sooner set my head on fire than go there.
Edit: I just clicked interesting ad while reading news - amazing bumperstickers representing all that is wrong with some people aginst abortions. Now, just how stupid do you have to be to put any of that on your car? Made me laugh nonetheless, I especially love the one that is reappearing several times "Guns do not kill people, abortions kill people.". That is just so hilarious. I mean, really... really... ah, screw it, I need to move to another planet. Soon.
Xycolian2332:
I don't really care whether a woman does or does not have an abortion, or their reason behind doing or not doing it.
It just irritates me when politicians are like a broken record when it comes to the word "freedom" and then proceed to pass bills that essentially tell us what we're not allowed to do. The hypocrisy is disgusting.
If a woman who's been raped doesn't want to do a complete 180 with her life and raise a child, then she should have the right to get an abortion. I'll be damned if an old fat monkey in a suit signs a piece of paper before telling me what I can and can't do with my body. They prattle on and on about how it's morally wrong, so much so that, to me, it seems as if they're saying the abortion overshadows the rape itself in terms of immorality. Also, am I the only one who finds it ironic that typically it's men (in political positions) who debate and decide on the issue? (Yeah I know men are the majority in politics, but still, it's funny to me). Why don't they have a heart to heart with some of their constituents who've had to make this decision, and try to see it from their point of view, rather than sitting up in their ivory tower and passing down judgement on them? Oh wait, they need to win the election by catering to all the retards in bible country. Nevermind. Who cares if thousands of woman have to raise a child? I'm the president bitch!
Meh.
Burkingam:
--- Quote from: elvikun on August 24, 2012, 01:07:14 PM ---Edit: I just clicked interesting ad while reading news - amazing bumperstickers representing all that is wrong with some people aginst abortions. Now, just how stupid do you have to be to put any of that on your car? Made me laugh nonetheless, I especially love the one that is reappearing several times "Guns do not kill people, abortions kill people.". That is just so hilarious. I mean, really... really... ah, screw it, I need to move to another planet. Soon.
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Oh god so many appeal to emotions. And caplocks are annoying. Not to mention that half of them are factually wrong. E.g.:
"ABORTION STOPS a beating heart" No, abortions usually occur before the fetus' hearth starts to beat.
"I SuPPort a BABY's RiGht to CHOOSE" Yeah if by "BABY" you mean a fetus younger than 20 weeks, good luck with that, because they don't have the brain necessary to make a choice.
And others could also be used against abstinance. e.g.
"IF YOU CAN READ THIS...YOU WERE NOT ABORTED" If you can read this... your parents where probably not abstinent.
"I've Noticed Everyone Who is For Abortion Has Already Been Born!" I've noticed that most people who are for abstinence had parents who weren't abstinent.
elvikun:
--- Quote from: Xycolian2332 on August 24, 2012, 04:08:02 PM ---I don't really care whether a woman does or does not have an abortion, or their reason behind doing or not doing it.
It just irritates me when politicians are like a broken record when it comes to the word "freedom" and then proceed to pass bills that essentially tell us what we're not allowed to do. The hypocrisy is disgusting.
If a woman who's been raped doesn't want to do a complete 180 with her life and raise a child, then she should have the right to get an abortion. I'll be damned if an old fat monkey in a suit signs a piece of paper before telling me what I can and can't do with my body. They prattle on and on about how it's morally wrong, so much so that, to me, it seems as if they're saying the abortion overshadows the rape itself in terms of immorality. Also, am I the only one who finds it ironic that typically it's men (in political positions) who debate and decide on the issue? (Yeah I know men are the majority in politics, but still, it's funny to me). Why don't they have a heart to heart with some of their constituents who've had to make this decision, and try to see it from their point of view, rather than sitting up in their ivory tower and passing down judgement on them? Oh wait, they need to win the election by catering to all the retards in bible country. Nevermind. Who cares if thousands of woman have to raise a child? I'm the president bitch!
Meh.
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Goverment exist to provide services which individual people are unable to provide for themselves, such as telling you what you can do with your body, how are you allowed to have sex, where you can have fun, how (and if) will you live, what gods will you worship... and... wait a moment, that actually sounds like fascism, that can't be possibly right.
Also thanks for saying the part about that it's almost exclusively men (and uneducated to boot) passing "commands" which affect only women, was starting to feel lonely repeating that.
--- Quote from: Burkingam on August 24, 2012, 04:23:06 PM ---
--- Quote from: elvikun on August 24, 2012, 01:07:14 PM ---Edit: I just clicked interesting ad while reading news - amazing bumperstickers representing all that is wrong with some people aginst abortions. Now, just how stupid do you have to be to put any of that on your car? Made me laugh nonetheless, I especially love the one that is reappearing several times "Guns do not kill people, abortions kill people.". That is just so hilarious. I mean, really... really... ah, screw it, I need to move to another planet. Soon.
--- End quote ---
Oh god so many appeal to emotions. And caplocks are annoying. Not to mention that half of them are factually wrong. E.g.:
"ABORTION STOPS a beating heart" No, abortions usually occur before the fetus' hearth starts to beat.
"I SuPPort a BABY's RiGht to CHOOSE" Yeah if by "BABY" you mean a fetus younger than 20 weeks, good luck with that, because they don't have the brain necessary to make a choice.
And others could also be used against abstinance. e.g.
"IF YOU CAN READ THIS...YOU WERE NOT ABORTED" If you can read this... your parents where probably not abstinent.
"I've Noticed Everyone Who is For Abortion Has Already Been Born!" I've noticed that most people who are for abstinence had parents who weren't abstinent.
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Yes, they are all so insightful and clever. I also like "I've Noticed Everyone Who is For Abortion Has Already Been Born!" , it's just incredible how empty that is. You could just as well say "I've noticed everyone who is driving a car is sitting in a vehicle!" and use it as an argument for more money for space flight program. Makes sense.
I've also noticed the amazing thing how the pro-life (What a stupid name, when you think about it) movement keeps throwing around those rather distasteful photos of "aborted" children, failing to mention most of those are stillborns or some other types of dead fetuses which had to be "taken out" during the last weeks to avoid the death of everyone involved.
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