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kitamesume:
not when your speakers are getting costly at over $1000 just for the speakers alone, not accounting the amps, cables, soundcard and such.
you could get good speakers for like $50 and up to $200 it stays pretty cost efficient.
though some really really good speakers do justify it's $500 price but is too much of a stretch, more than that and it becomes pointless.
what was the point of getting a 1TB SSD that costs too much? a 2TB black with an SSD cache in SRT would perform 60%~80% of an SSD's full performance.
imho thats good enough for most practical means and its close to 1/3 the cost per GB.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4329/intel-z68-chipset-smart-response-technology-ssd-caching-review/4
note: the review is pretty old and intel had gone through a series of improvements to SRT, Z87 and Z97 chipsets should have the latest improvements.
PS: if you go through the priorities you'd end up with a $7000 rig before you even get to the 3rd or 4th bottom priority (1TB~2TB SSD?).
i mean something like:
(click to show/hide)$500 for a CPU+HSF+TIM
$400 for a 4x8GB ram kit
$250 for a good motherboard
$2000 two Titan blacks anyone?
$250 for a 256GB SSD boot drive
*$100 for a 128GB SSD cache drive
*$1500 five 6TB HDD in raid5
$500 raid card
$150 for a really good case
$250 for a really good PSU
$500 for a really really good monitor
$200 a bunch of noctua fans
$200 soundcard
$200 a reasonably good speaker
$250 a really good headphone
$100 fancy mouse
$100 fancy mechanical keyboard
----------------------------------------------------
total : $7450
*for archival storage and some low-priority apps.
note: i'm not even stretching for a $1000 octa-processor (haswell-E?)
so even if you do like ditch the 2nd titanB, 2x8GB ram, only one 6TB HDD and no SSD cache nor raid card, a much simpler but good mice/keyboard, cheaper headphones and speakers, etc. you'd still end up at $4000 or so.
and so as i've said, its one of the least prioritized item, you could go by with a slower HDD just fine and a 256GB SSD can fit almost anything but your entire steam library in it just fine too.
xShadow:
--- Quote from: kitamesume on July 25, 2014, 12:18:58 PM ---not when your speakers are getting costly at over $1000 just for the speakers alone, not accounting the amps, cables, soundcard and such.
you could get good speakers for like $50 and up to $200 it stays pretty cost efficient.
though some really really good speakers do justify it's $500 price but is too much of a stretch, more than that and it becomes pointless.
--- End quote ---
Hell no. If you haven't heard really high end stuff, don't make that statement. There is definitely reason to spend more and more on audio gear. DIY would get you even further. That being said the first big upgrade you make will be the most significant. For me that was my pair of Ebay Paradigm Atom V3's with the Topping TP20 amp. Note that those speakers normally sell for around 200$ per pair though. Now, there are diminishing returns but since when did diminishing returns matter? If we're talking diminishing returns, there are diminishing returns in everything, including eyecandy. Mathematically, you should know how this works:
1->2, 2=2x1, 200% increase.
1->3=300% increase.
1->4=400% increase.
3->4=133% increase.
That's how all things are. That includes eyecandy. Graphics cards are the same way. I know because I'm fielding 780 SLI's. Yeah they have twice the performance but in terms of game eyecandy, how big a difference is it? As big as you can justify with your pocket, that's what. Your fallacy is that you think that one type of incremental improvement ultimately trumps another type universally for each person. That is, GPU>>>CPU>>>sound. For me it ain't. I can tell you that 1400$ earphones >>> 200$ earphones (granted I got mine for 600$). If you have any kind of decent pair of ears hanging off that head, the difference should be as easy as night and day. I know because I've heard my friend's DT990's. The difference is massive. I suppose you want to bring the DT880's as a closer competitor, that's fine. I haven't heard those.
--- Quote ---what was the point of getting a 1TB SSD that costs too much?
--- End quote ---
Convenience and reliability. Furthermore you mentioning "costs too much" suggests you can't even begin to understand where I'm coming from. It's gonna be my boot drive, and for optimal performance it should be an SSD. All my files should be going fast. Let's add to that reliability. I want my entire boot drive to be very reliable. So tell me how does a mechanical compare to an SSD in both of those departments? It may be nearly as fast. It's probably never going to be nearly as reliable as any SSD worth it's salt. Those are also two things I would pay a premium for.
--- Quote ---PS: if you go through the priorities you'd end up with a $7000 rig before you even get to the 3rd or 4th bottom priority (1TB~2TB SSD?).
i mean something like:
(click to show/hide)$500 for a CPU+HSF+TIM
$400 for a 4x8GB ram kit
$250 for a good motherboard
$2000 two Titan blacks anyone?
$250 for a 256GB SSD boot drive
*$100 for a 128GB SSD cache drive
*$1500 five 6TB HDD in raid5
$500 raid card
$150 for a really good case
$250 for a really good PSU
$500 for a really really good monitor
$200 a bunch of noctua fans
$200 soundcard
$200 a reasonably good speaker
$250 a really good headphone
$100 fancy mouse
$100 fancy mechanical keyboard
----------------------------------------------------
total : $7450
--- End quote ---
That build makes it apparent you don't have the perspective on what I'm talking about. You would never actually lay down that much money on a build, so you don't understand the value of small quality of life improvements. =_=; I could go through that and point out what I don't like if you want.
--- Quote ---*for archival storage and some low-priority apps.
note: i'm not even stretching for a $1000 octa-processor (haswell-E?)
so even if you do like ditch the 2nd titanB, 2x8GB ram, only one 6TB HDD and no SSD cache nor raid card, a much simpler but good mice/keyboard, cheaper headphones and speakers, etc. you'd still end up at $4000 or so.
and so as i've said, its one of the least prioritized item, you could go by with a slower HDD just fine and a 256GB SSD can fit almost anything but your entire steam library in it just fine too.
--- End quote ---
Again read my third paragraph. How much actual value are you going to get from each of your "prioritized" steps up? And how much value will you get out of having to not mess or worry about this or that? That seems to be the point you're missing.
Edit: I also wish to note something: Unlike GPU/CPU/RAM/ETC... components like speakers do not drop in perceived value over time. The sound is always going to be just as good as when you got them, and everything will always sound just as good through them. Compare this to eyecandy and processing power.
kitamesume:
no, simply based on how far you'd go for quality and how much money you're willing to spend just heightens your bracket.
speakers of over $1000 (yes i'm saying just the speakers no amps, just those bookshelf speakers that doesn't even have their own pair of cables) wouldn't be cost effective once you weight everything else, you balance your whole build and lay out your priorities.
convenience is an acceptable reason, but how far would you favor it is one of the reasons why some doesn't even look at SSDs as an entirety.
from which point did you get that SSDs are leagues more reliable than HDDs? even if you aren't implying it as such an exaggeration, how do you even compare it?
though as a note to that, i haven't seen a 1TB SSD with 5years of warranty, some blacks and red pro has a 5year warranty at least.
you aren't even explaining yourself, how am i suppose to wild-guess your perspective?
that would actually be a good start, those stuffs i went through are just a part of builds that would make things more interesting.
ohh and i heard RAID5 with a good raid controller could sustain up to 300MB/s on a bunch of 7200RPM HDDs, its pretty cool.
now onto your last paragraph, i'd rather layout my priorities.
(click to show/hide)1) processor - aside from sheer core performance, sheer core count can, and does affect minimum framerate, i went through that with Honemi once.
which means a haswell-E 8core might actually be worth it for a gamer.
2) low latency, reasonably high speed, high capacity ram - 4x8GB is plenty or even too much, finding one with a CL9 1886Mhz would be hard though and expensive.
CL11 2400Mhz is much more common, and 4x4GB or 2x8GB would be ok too, you need at least 4dimms to go with LGA2011 boards for maximum potential.
3) motherboard - at least get the one with the features you want.
some boards gets quite expensive but some are cost effective so its a give or take, $250 is the sweet spot for most high-end boards.
4) HSF - nothing beats a good HSF.
cant do much with a shitty HSF now do we?
5) GPU - it mainly depends on what end-goal are you after, 27" 2560x1600 @ 120Hz would surely need two TitanBE just to keep it constant, where as a normal 1920x1080 would only need a single 780Ti.
6) monitor - you'd spend years staring at it, why not get something that wouldn't rot your eyes?
some gamers swear on 120Hz screens, though a good 60Hz IPS still does plenty, 2560x1440 or 2560x1600 is still by far the best investment you could go with a monitor.
7) PSU - stick with a crappy PSU and down goes the system.
get ones that are known to be highly reliable, you could get one with higher efficiencies too but its not necessary.
8.) boot drive - SSDs is the best for this role, but the size? you don't necessarily need a 512GB or larger SSD for a drive solely for booting.
having a separate and dedicated SSD for booting still the best way of doing it, I/O queue would get flooded if theres a bunch of apps coming from it.
see reviews that random access still plummets down under 100MB/s when I/O is flooded.
9) HDD for archive - high capacity, decently reliable, cost efficient, what could go wrong?
while having a fast drive for archive has it's benefits, it doesn't kill you to wait an extra few minutes when transferring files.
10) case - good looking, very durable, hopefully affordable, and great design cases are one of the hit-or-miss investments.
its not quite a low or high priority purchase since its that type of thing that'll last you the entire lifespan of your rig, could even be reused for a newer rig.
11) case fans - if your case hadn't come with reasonably good fans then you're quite in it for some purchases.
quality fans like those from noctua could do you good, keeps temps low and most notably some stay so silent that you'd sometimes forget your PC was left on.
12) application drive - SSDs? HDDs? which to choose? but i'm pretty sure i'd need at least 1TB for it.
while an SSD would be preferable, when your game library is approaching 1TB it becomes problematic, high capacity SSDs costs a fortune.
on the other hand HDDs are slow and power hungry, though cheap, a small SSD cache could perk it up quite noticeably.
13.1) headphone - a good headphone for those times where you don't want a full blast from your speakers.
often times its better to use headphones during gaming, although a good setup of speakers could provide better immersion.
13.2) speakers - ahh speakers, rumble that table and get that sound going.
a good pair of speakers, or 5, does wonders with gaming and even movie immersion, you feel it, you crave for it, and you hear it clearly.
13.3) soundcard - good sound, of the other parts of the entire sound system a good soundcard can add a bunch of pleasing effects that none of the speakers or headphones can do.
some features are even exclusive to one type or one brand of sound cards.
though purely by sound quality, with the recent new onboard sound chips its less necessary to upgrade at once, hearing the onboard first would be the convincing factor.
14) mouse - a good accurate mouse is king, you'd die out when you mouse jitters, i mean literally die.
good mice would give you better control of things.
15) keyboard - good old keyboard with that ticky sounds, mostly depends on preferences but certain features does make a difference.
NKRO for one would allow you to smash your face on the keyboard and it'd register all the keys pressed, then theres the mechanical for durability and accuracy.
--- Quote from: xShadow on July 25, 2014, 01:15:50 PM ---Edit: I also wish to note something: Unlike GPU/CPU/RAM/ETC... components like speakers do not drop in perceived value over time. The sound is always going to be just as good as when you got them, and everything will always sound just as good through them. Compare this to eyecandy and processing power.
--- End quote ---
true for the most of it, but theres one thing to take note, those speakers do deteriorate albeit slow, even the soundcards wears down over time.
and so does their resell value, certain new models makes the old ones seem undesirable for one, although the rate of this isn't as fast as processors or GPUs.
just look at how you managed to get your $1200 headphone for $600, i find that oddly sweet myself.
in any case i think i've got the idea of your perspective, you view these things as those 1time purchases that'll last you decades before you even think of upgrading them again.
though indeed investing in such, once you see their long-term worth, makes for a valid reason.
but it still depends on how much you could shell out, even if the priority means it's at the bottom of your list doesn't mean you wouldn't spend a lot on it.
it just means you'd put it off until you've bought everything else.
PS: a good tactic for speakers is buying a reasonably good $200 speakers as an initial investment, later on once you've got everything else you can shell out as much as you want for a better front speaker, now move the old $200 speaker to rear channel.
note: this perspective wouldn't apply to SSDs, they deteriorate really fast, well 1PB write isn't quite easy to wear down, it still wouldn't last you a couple of years if you use it as an all-purpose drive.
this is also the reason why a lot of people doesn't want to buy refurb or 2nd-hand SSDs, NAND wear level is unknown and manufacturer could just reset SMART making it seem new(resold as refurb).
and its also why splitting loads across multiple SSDs would prolong each SSD's write-wear life and would save you from catastrophic failure taking all the files at once.
Honemi:
--- Quote from: kitamesume on July 25, 2014, 02:09:35 PM ---no, simply based on how far you'd go for quality and how much money you're willing to spend just heightens your bracket.
speakers of over $1000 (yes i'm saying just the speakers no amps, just those bookshelf speakers that doesn't even have their own pair of cables) wouldn't be cost effective once you weight everything else, you balance your whole build and lay out your priorities.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: kitamesume ---convenience is an acceptable reason, but how far would you favor it is one of the reasons why some doesn't even look at SSDs as an entirety.
from which point did you get that SSDs are leagues more reliable than HDDs? even if you aren't implying it as such an exaggeration, how do you even compare it?
though as a note to that, i haven't seen a 1TB SSD with 5years of warranty, some blacks and red pro has a 5year warranty at least.
--- End quote ---
Samsung has a 5 and 10 year warranty on their SSDs; however, they do come with a TBW limit. Likewise, SanDisk's top drive has a 10 year warranty. Intel has 5 years or more warranties on some of their SSDs. PNY's XLR8 Pro and Prevail. Typically, if the company is not just a piece of shit, they throw in a 5 year warranty (with a caveat like online registration or total write limit) for their top drives. Even OCZ can muster that. Enterprise drives default at 5 year warranties.
SSDs have no moving components, so the conventional wisdom is that they have less of a chance of failure. Of course, SSDs can still fall victim to cheap NAND and unreliable controllers.
About the only comparison to be had is Hardware.fr's RMA reports. No other large hardware vendor release such reports. HDD and SSD. Not completely reliable source since they don't include why those people RMA'd.
Anyway, from what I can understand, high performance and green drives are more likely to fail than their NAS and normal performance counterparts. On the SSD side, you can track high fail rates on certain companies and SSDs known to use cheap NAND. If you ignore OCZ and Crucial's older stuff, SSDs would, overall, seem more reliable. But as is, there doesn't seem to be a significant gap between the two types of storage.
Looks like Samsung is trying to get to processor levels of reliability with their SSDs.
--- Quote from: kitamesume ---you aren't even explaining yourself, how am i suppose to wild-guess your perspective?
that would actually be a good start, those stuffs i went through are just a part of builds that would make things more interesting.
ohh and i heard RAID5 with a good raid controller could sustain up to 300MB/s on a bunch of 7200RPM HDDs, its pretty cool.
--- End quote ---
From a performance and cost perspective, you're probably not going to drop all that cash on a bunch of 6TB drives. First of all, if you're going to cache, the performance of RAID5 would be irrelevant. Second of all, you always buy backup storage. That'd mean buying twice as many 6TB drives if not more. Quite frankly, for a desktop, few people, including those with the money, would want or need 24TB of data on their desktop. Moreover, you'd need five 3.5" drive bays. That limits your choice of cases.
--- Quote from: kitamesume ---now onto your last paragraph, i'd rather layout my priorities.
(click to show/hide)1) processor - aside from sheer core performance, sheer core count can, and does affect minimum framerate, i went through that with Honemi once.
which means a haswell-E 8core might actually be worth it for a gamer.
2) low latency, reasonably high speed, high capacity ram - 4x8GB is plenty or even too much, finding one with a CL9 1886Mhz would be hard though and expensive.
CL11 2400Mhz is much more common, and 4x4GB or 2x8GB would be ok too, you need at least 4dimms to go with LGA2011 boards for maximum potential.
3) motherboard - at least get the one with the features you want.
some boards gets quite expensive but some are cost effective so its a give or take, $250 is the sweet spot for most high-end boards.
4) HSF - nothing beats a good HSF.
cant do much with a shitty HSF now do we?
5) GPU - it mainly depends on what end-goal are you after, 27" 2560x1600 @ 120Hz would surely need two TitanBE just to keep it constant, where as a normal 1920x1080 would only need a single 780Ti.
6) monitor - you'd spend years staring at it, why not get something that wouldn't rot your eyes?
some gamers swear on 120Hz screens, though a good 60Hz IPS still does plenty, 2560x1440 or 2560x1600 is still by far the best investment you could go with a monitor.
7) PSU - stick with a crappy PSU and down goes the system.
get ones that are known to be highly reliable, you could get one with higher efficiencies too but its not necessary.
8.) boot drive - SSDs is the best for this role, but the size? you don't necessarily need a 512GB or larger SSD for a drive solely for booting.
having a separate and dedicated SSD for booting still the best way of doing it, I/O queue would get flooded if theres a bunch of apps coming from it.
see reviews that random access still plummets down under 100MB/s when I/O is flooded.
9) HDD for archive - high capacity, decently reliable, cost efficient, what could go wrong?
while having a fast drive for archive has it's benefits, it doesn't kill you to wait an extra few minutes when transferring files.
10) case - good looking, very durable, hopefully affordable, and great design cases are one of the hit-or-miss investments.
its not quite a low or high priority purchase since its that type of thing that'll last you the entire lifespan of your rig, could even be reused for a newer rig.
11) case fans - if your case hadn't come with reasonably good fans then you're quite in it for some purchases.
quality fans like those from noctua could do you good, keeps temps low and most notably some stay so silent that you'd sometimes forget your PC was left on.
12) application drive - SSDs? HDDs? which to choose? but i'm pretty sure i'd need at least 1TB for it.
while an SSD would be preferable, when your game library is approaching 1TB it becomes problematic, high capacity SSDs costs a fortune.
on the other hand HDDs are slow and power hungry, though cheap, a small SSD cache could perk it up quite noticeably.
13.1) headphone - a good headphone for those times where you don't want a full blast from your speakers.
often times its better to use headphones during gaming, although a good setup of speakers could provide better immersion.
13.2) speakers - ahh speakers, rumble that table and get that sound going.
a good pair of speakers, or 5, does wonders with gaming and even movie immersion, you feel it, you crave for it, and you hear it clearly.
13.3) soundcard - good sound, of the other parts of the entire sound system a good soundcard can add a bunch of pleasing effects that none of the speakers or headphones can do.
some features are even exclusive to one type or one brand of sound cards.
though purely by sound quality, with the recent new onboard sound chips its less necessary to upgrade at once, hearing the onboard first would be the convincing factor.
14) mouse - a good accurate mouse is king, you'd die out when you mouse jitters, i mean literally die.
good mice would give you better control of things.
15) keyboard - good old keyboard with that ticky sounds, mostly depends on preferences but certain features does make a difference.
NKRO for one would allow you to smash your face on the keyboard and it'd register all the keys pressed, then theres the mechanical for durability and accuracy.
--- End quote ---
(click to show/hide)1) There is still a concept of enough is enough to think about. Your choice of processor affects your choice of motherboards and thus peripherals and cases. 2011 or 2011-3 will be a major difference from a 115x processor. A lot of people will simply choose the 115x processor because the features attached to it is much more attractive than either 2011 or 2011-3. Also, most people find 115x processors to be good enough for what they're after.
2) It is like xShadow was trying to explain. Not everything is about squeezing every last bit of performance. Even AAA games, Watch_Dogs excluded, aren't bothered by RAM speed. As long as you have 1600MHz CL11 and above, most games will be perfectly happy. You may want to stick to 1866MHz CLwhateves if you just something a little faster. Now, if you have a workload that is sensitive to RAM speed, sure go maximize it.
3) If you're getting a X79 board, may as well get a ASUS X79 or ROG Rampage VI Black. Otherwise, you can get a Z97 ROG Hero for around ~$200 USD. That's about the point of diminishing returns for a Z97 ATX or mATX board. You'll have to pay more for a decent mITX board.
4) Might as well get some liquid cooling system at this price range. It'll allow you to cool your graphic card(s), too. That's a big plus if you're an overclocker. It'll be more expensive though. Still, if you're not overclocking, you don't need a beast of a HSF. A decent ~$30 USD will do you just fine.
5) Nope. No need to get two 780 Ti for 2560x1600. Two factory overclocked 780 6GB or 290s in SLI/CF can get you good framerates on 4K resolutions at High/Very High for most AAA games. Maybe that'll change in the near future. Anyway, a 780 Ti is too expensive for what it offers. If you're willing to overclock your cards, a 6GB version of a normal 780 can get you an impressive experience.
5.1) HardOCP did a series of articles on the ASUS Strix 780 OC 6GB edition. They are a fine read. GTX 780 OC 6GB, Overclocked, SLI, OC'd @ 4K UHD. HardOCP even did a couple articles about CF and their scaling. R9 295x2 CF and TriFire.
5.2) I showed the QuadFire and TriFire reviews so I can point out that scaling goes to shit after the second GPU. It's not generally worth it unless you're doing 4K, and three high end cards can handle 4K UHD (provided they have the RAM for it). Four-way GPU setups require too much power if you're overclocking your cards (useful still for 4K UHD) or just using plain power hungry cards (R9 290X). It is not necessary in the least or even a good idea.
6) Agreed. You'll also be spending years with your audio equipment. Probably much longer than your monitor especially if you get some good speakers. A good monitor and some great speakers are probably just as important for your enjoyment as a good framerate.
7) You won't need a super expensive PSU. Seasonic-based and Superflower-based PSUs can be had for cheap even at larger capacities. Still, you're right. One should not skimp on the power supply, but we all know that.
8.) That depends entirely on your setup. Like xShadow mentioned earlier, in some situations, you only have a limited amount of space, so you can't always go for a multi-drive setup. Plus, the convenience factor of having all your programs and shit on your fast drive is awesome. Assuming you're trying to keep 20% off your drive for optimal performance, that'd leave you with only 205GB off a 256GB drive. That's pretty low when you're considering putting Windows, your apps, and 50GB or 25GB games on your drive. Anyway, with how cheap some ~512GB drives are, you can snag something like the MX100 (512GB) for around the price of a 256GB drive.
9) Like I said earlier, very few people need or even wants 24TB of storage on their desktop, and setting up backup for it will be hella expensive. Not to mention off-site backup which is also recommended. No seriously, if you're spending this much cash on your storage, you want off-site (outside your home) backup. I remember how I was so diligent in backing up my files, but that didn't help shit when someone stole my computer and backup. Shit like off-site backup matters because things like that can happen (among other things). Where and how will you be putting 24TB of data outside your home (assuming you have only one home)?
10) Agreed. A case can be cheap and still good, but they can also be expensive and great. Still, not all cases will fit all builds. Your dream machine won't fit into a mini-ITX build, but I do know some people will prefer something small and silent/quiet to larger cases.
11) You don't exactly need Noctua case fans, and if you're a showoff, the colors can be a bit off-putting. Corsair fans do a good enough job at keeping your case cool. There are other cheap fans that also do a good enough job while looking decent.
12) This is kind of an extension of the boot drive in my opinion. I don't know many people who keep a separate application/program outside of their boot drive and/or media drive (if they can't everything on their quicker drive).
13) Yes. Hearing is one of human's most important senses especially from an artistic point of view. Try looking at some of the greatest movie moments but with their music. You'd be surprised 'bout how much the mood changes when the music is different or muted. You shouldn't skimp on your audio equipment if you're trying to immerse yourself. Hell, because great audio can make a large difference in performance, I don't think it would be ludicrous for someone to prioritize the audiovisual components of the computer over the performance parts.
14 & 15) For me, it is less about a mouse's technical qualities and more about comfort. The best sensor, firmware, and microswitches mean shit if the most isn't comfortable. A bad fit is like wearing a size too small thong. It's just painful in all the wrong places. (Or right places if you're into that.) Same for keyboard. Though, a little backlight is nice.
--- Quote from: kitamesume ---
--- Quote from: xShadow on July 25, 2014, 01:15:50 PM ---Edit: I also wish to note something: Unlike GPU/CPU/RAM/ETC... components like speakers do not drop in perceived value over time. The sound is always going to be just as good as when you got them, and everything will always sound just as good through them. Compare this to eyecandy and processing power.
--- End quote ---
true for the most of it, but theres one thing to take note, those speakers do deteriorate albeit slow, even the soundcards wears down over time.
and so does their resell value, certain new models makes the old ones seem undesirable for one, although the rate of this isn't as fast as processors or GPUs.
just look at how you managed to get your $1200 headphone for $600, i find that oddly sweet myself.
--- End quote ---
If you're spending a lot on your setup, you may forgo a soundcard period and just a full-on, seperate DAC. Something like the Benchmark if you're overcompensating for something or just like overkill. Shit, their yet to be released DAC2 AHB2 can double as a power amplifier and headphone amp/dac.
Though, stuff like that (and a lot of more cheaper stuff) is useful for more than just your computer. Especially speakers and headphones. You still people using headphones, speakers, and other audio shit from the late 80s now. I don't think people are still using too many electronics from back then if they can help it. Just my opinion.
--- Quote from: kitamesume ---in any case i think i've got the idea of your perspective, you view these things as those 1time purchases that'll last you decades before you even think of upgrading them again.
though indeed investing in such, once you see their long-term worth, makes for a valid reason.
but it still depends on how much you could shell out, even if the priority means it's at the bottom of your list doesn't mean you wouldn't spend a lot on it.
it just means you'd put it off until you've bought everything else.
PS: a good tactic for speakers is buying a reasonably good $200 speakers as an initial investment, later on once you've got everything else you can shell out as much as you want for a better front speaker, now move the old $200 speaker to rear channel.
--- End quote ---
Not an unreasonable thing to say. But not everyone is a performance junkie. There are a lot of people who would spend twice as much on their audio equipment than on their computer even if they're just planning to just game with it. Audio is fairly important to immersion, moreso than eye-candy. Just like a bit more performance can make a huge difference in the eye-candy/graphics department, a smallish upgrade to your headphones can open you up to a whole new experience.
I've never used one of those expensive $1k USD headphones, but I switched from retail quality trash to some decent cheap headphones. If the difference between the audio quality of $600 headphones and $1500 headphones is even half as much, I can see why some people would think it was worth it. Just my opinion, of course.
Computer hardware is obsoleted so quickly, and your audio equipment and display is so important to immersion and shit, I can definitely appreciate and understand someone who says, "Fuck this, I'm just going to buy a 'just good enough' PC and splurge on everything else". Of course, that isn't what xShadow and you were talking about.
I went on a bit of a tangent, haven't I?
--- Quote from: kitamesume ---note: this perspective wouldn't apply to SSDs, they deteriorate really fast, well 1PB write isn't quite easy to wear down, it still wouldn't last you a couple of years if you use it as an all-purpose drive.
this is also the reason why a lot of people doesn't want to buy refurb or 2nd-hand SSDs, NAND wear level is unknown and manufacturer could just reset SMART making it seem new(resold as refurb).
and its also why splitting loads across multiple SSDs would prolong each SSD's write-wear life and would save you from catastrophic failure taking all the files at once.
--- End quote ---
You'd be hard pressed to fill 1PB of writes even in a workstation environment. Outside of TLC and shitastic quality NAND, you would experience firmware bugs and controller issues (among other things) before you use up even half the write capacity of a SSD. Endurance isn't simply an issue in modern SSDs. Even 100 GiB (unrealistic for all but the most heaviest workstation workloads) of writes a day to a ~256GB TLC SSD won't kill for until nearly 8 years. More over, SSDs' endurance scale linearly when increasing capacity. A ~512GB TLC SSD will last nearly 16 years under those conditions, and a ~1TB TLC SSD will last for 32 years. In all those cases, you'd be replacing because it would be obsolete compared to the current offerings.
As for the build you mentioned earlier, it is way exaggerated.
(click to show/hide)$400 for a CPU+HSF (An i7 is around $340 USD, a good/cheap HSF is no more than $60, closer to $40, and TIM is oft included with HSF.)
$150 for a 2x8GB ram kit (No need for more than this unless you're building for a particular application)
$200 for a good motherboard (Z97 ROG Hero is my benchmark for good and featureful)
$800 for R9 290 CF/$1000 for 290X CF/$1200 780 6GB (Assuming 2560x1600, I wouldn't spend more than $1200 on my graphics cards)
$140 for a 256GB SSD (There is little reason to be spending more than $140 on a SSD. There also plenty of decent, cheaper SSDs like the MX100 or XLR8 Pro.)
$300 for two 4TB HDD (Not even for Raid; you don't even need that for a desktop. You could buy a third one for another ~$150 dollars for RAID5 and have your 8TB capacity, but I don't really see the point of you're frequently backing up your stuff.)
$50 for a 200r or like/$80 for quality ATX midtower/Up to $200 for Full/Ultratower cases (Eh, depends on what you're looking for)
$150 for a high quality PSU (assuming 800w or better, 700w will probably cost around $100, +1000w $200)
$400 for a really really good monitor (Prices for these varies a lot, HRF displays can cost between $250 to $800, ultrawides $250 to $1k, cheap Korean panels will run you ~$400 for good overclockable kind, non-Korean ~2560x1600 will cost a bit more than $500 iirc, and decent 1080p IPS/PLS/AHVA can be had for less than $200)
$40 for decent, extra fans (good cases tend to come with decent fans, just add 2 or 3 more)
*$200 soundcard (not really necessary)
$200 a reasonably good speaker (Haven't checked any out lately, so I'll take your word for it.)
$200 for great headphones (you can get some Beyerdynamics for ~$200, 'nuff said)
$60 fancy mouse (fanciest mouse won't run you more than $90, great mice can be had for lower than even $60, but I'll compromise)
$150 fancy mechanical keyboard ($100 may get *a* mechanical keyboard, $30 premium for fancy, $20 extra for extra fancy)
----------------------------------------------------
total : >$4000
Of course, a build like that assumes you're doing only small overclocks. You could swap out the HSF for a liquid cooling kit. You'll probably exceed the $4000, though. Watercooling can be expensive especially if you're getting good GPU waterblocks for your computer. Of course, a mATX build would look a little different, and a mini-ITX build will look nothing like it.
Since you already spending ~$4k USD on the computer, might as well also buy an expensive sound system for it. And fuck, look for a Steelcase on Craigslist or whatever.
xShadow:
--- Quote from: kitamesume on July 25, 2014, 02:09:35 PM --- (click to show/hide)no, simply based on how far you'd go for quality and how much money you're willing to spend just heightens your bracket.
speakers of over $1000 (yes i'm saying just the speakers no amps, just those bookshelf speakers that doesn't even have their own pair of cables) wouldn't be cost effective once you weight everything else, you balance your whole build and lay out your priorities.
convenience is an acceptable reason, but how far would you favor it is one of the reasons why some doesn't even look at SSDs as an entirety.
from which point did you get that SSDs are leagues more reliable than HDDs? even if you aren't implying it as such an exaggeration, how do you even compare it?
though as a note to that, i haven't seen a 1TB SSD with 5years of warranty, some blacks and red pro has a 5year warranty at least.
you aren't even explaining yourself, how am i suppose to wild-guess your perspective?
that would actually be a good start, those stuffs i went through are just a part of builds that would make things more interesting.
ohh and i heard RAID5 with a good raid controller could sustain up to 300MB/s on a bunch of 7200RPM HDDs, its pretty cool.
now onto your last paragraph, i'd rather layout my priorities.
(click to show/hide)1) processor - aside from sheer core performance, sheer core count can, and does affect minimum framerate, i went through that with Honemi once.
which means a haswell-E 8core might actually be worth it for a gamer.
2) low latency, reasonably high speed, high capacity ram - 4x8GB is plenty or even too much, finding one with a CL9 1886Mhz would be hard though and expensive.
CL11 2400Mhz is much more common, and 4x4GB or 2x8GB would be ok too, you need at least 4dimms to go with LGA2011 boards for maximum potential.
3) motherboard - at least get the one with the features you want.
some boards gets quite expensive but some are cost effective so its a give or take, $250 is the sweet spot for most high-end boards.
4) HSF - nothing beats a good HSF.
cant do much with a shitty HSF now do we?
5) GPU - it mainly depends on what end-goal are you after, 27" 2560x1600 @ 120Hz would surely need two TitanBE just to keep it constant, where as a normal 1920x1080 would only need a single 780Ti.
6) monitor - you'd spend years staring at it, why not get something that wouldn't rot your eyes?
some gamers swear on 120Hz screens, though a good 60Hz IPS still does plenty, 2560x1440 or 2560x1600 is still by far the best investment you could go with a monitor.
7) PSU - stick with a crappy PSU and down goes the system.
get ones that are known to be highly reliable, you could get one with higher efficiencies too but its not necessary.
8.) boot drive - SSDs is the best for this role, but the size? you don't necessarily need a 512GB or larger SSD for a drive solely for booting.
having a separate and dedicated SSD for booting still the best way of doing it, I/O queue would get flooded if theres a bunch of apps coming from it.
see reviews that random access still plummets down under 100MB/s when I/O is flooded.
9) HDD for archive - high capacity, decently reliable, cost efficient, what could go wrong?
while having a fast drive for archive has it's benefits, it doesn't kill you to wait an extra few minutes when transferring files.
10) case - good looking, very durable, hopefully affordable, and great design cases are one of the hit-or-miss investments.
its not quite a low or high priority purchase since its that type of thing that'll last you the entire lifespan of your rig, could even be reused for a newer rig.
11) case fans - if your case hadn't come with reasonably good fans then you're quite in it for some purchases.
quality fans like those from noctua could do you good, keeps temps low and most notably some stay so silent that you'd sometimes forget your PC was left on.
12) application drive - SSDs? HDDs? which to choose? but i'm pretty sure i'd need at least 1TB for it.
while an SSD would be preferable, when your game library is approaching 1TB it becomes problematic, high capacity SSDs costs a fortune.
on the other hand HDDs are slow and power hungry, though cheap, a small SSD cache could perk it up quite noticeably.
13.1) headphone - a good headphone for those times where you don't want a full blast from your speakers.
often times its better to use headphones during gaming, although a good setup of speakers could provide better immersion.
13.2) speakers - ahh speakers, rumble that table and get that sound going.
a good pair of speakers, or 5, does wonders with gaming and even movie immersion, you feel it, you crave for it, and you hear it clearly.
13.3) soundcard - good sound, of the other parts of the entire sound system a good soundcard can add a bunch of pleasing effects that none of the speakers or headphones can do.
some features are even exclusive to one type or one brand of sound cards.
though purely by sound quality, with the recent new onboard sound chips its less necessary to upgrade at once, hearing the onboard first would be the convincing factor.
14) mouse - a good accurate mouse is king, you'd die out when you mouse jitters, i mean literally die.
good mice would give you better control of things.
15) keyboard - good old keyboard with that ticky sounds, mostly depends on preferences but certain features does make a difference.
NKRO for one would allow you to smash your face on the keyboard and it'd register all the keys pressed, then theres the mechanical for durability and accuracy.
--- Quote from: xShadow on July 25, 2014, 01:15:50 PM ---Edit: I also wish to note something: Unlike GPU/CPU/RAM/ETC... components like speakers do not drop in perceived value over time. The sound is always going to be just as good as when you got them, and everything will always sound just as good through them. Compare this to eyecandy and processing power.
--- End quote ---
true for the most of it, but theres one thing to take note, those speakers do deteriorate albeit slow, even the soundcards wears down over time.
and so does their resell value, certain new models makes the old ones seem undesirable for one, although the rate of this isn't as fast as processors or GPUs.
just look at how you managed to get your $1200 headphone for $600, i find that oddly sweet myself.
in any case i think i've got the idea of your perspective, you view these things as those 1time purchases that'll last you decades before you even think of upgrading them again.
though indeed investing in such, once you see their long-term worth, makes for a valid reason.
but it still depends on how much you could shell out, even if the priority means it's at the bottom of your list doesn't mean you wouldn't spend a lot on it.
it just means you'd put it off until you've bought everything else.
PS: a good tactic for speakers is buying a reasonably good $200 speakers as an initial investment, later on once you've got everything else you can shell out as much as you want for a better front speaker, now move the old $200 speaker to rear channel.
note: this perspective wouldn't apply to SSDs, they deteriorate really fast, well 1PB write isn't quite easy to wear down, it still wouldn't last you a couple of years if you use it as an all-purpose drive.
this is also the reason why a lot of people doesn't want to buy refurb or 2nd-hand SSDs, NAND wear level is unknown and manufacturer could just reset SMART making it seem new(resold as refurb).
and its also why splitting loads across multiple SSDs would prolong each SSD's write-wear life and would save you from catastrophic failure taking all the files at once.
--- End quote ---
I couldn't really respond because I was at work and typing up shit on a mobile phone sucks. Anyway, I'll try to make this... eh... uh... somewhat concise. It's gonna have to be since my drive home, while short, pisses me off and I tend to forget the points I thought up. Anyway:
While that last tidbit is an interesting point, and is in line with what I think... there's another, larger underlying point. I'll start out with some questions.
What makes up the PC gaming (or hell just PC in general) experience? What makes up any experience? Why are those tidbits important? And finally, which of them are important to you?
I think the viewpoints you and most people adopt towards performance is... what's the word? Naive? Lacking perspective? Short-sighted? And I know how you think because that's how I used to think the same until recently. Hell I squeezed this budget down to afford the biggest baddest graphics cards I could at the time. The best CPU possible. I didn't give a shit about anything else... but then you know I noticed how I liked silence after seeing how silent it was in that case and invested in Noctuas. Do you know what prompted that? Me experiencing a very quiet computer for the first time! It's not like I saw the point of quiet computers, or quiet components, or any of this, until I got a taste of it for myself, and then I placed value upon it.
Everything you interact with, everything you experience while gaming, while using this computer... that's the experience. It doesn't end at that FPS number you have in the upper right. I sure as fucking hell know GPU manufacturers would like you to think that, but it doesn't! It doesn't end at how much processing power your CPU is cranking out while you're trying to do mundane tasks. It doesn't end at any of these things, it ends at your perception of how much value each of these things are bringing to you. The experience includes how comfy the chair you're sitting in is. How spacious and roomy the desk is. How good this keyboard feels. How suited this mouse is for the task. And so on and so forth.
That's why it begs the question: perceptually, how much is that FPS number worth, and how much is that AA slider being a bit further to the right worth? You have to realize that in any experience, all things of increasing cost have diminishing returns, but at the same time they're all part of the experience. How much value you place on them should be determined by you after weighing and considering the benefits properly, not simply going "LOL MY FPS IS HIGHER NOW THAT MUST MEAN I AM HAPPIER WITH MY NEW COMPUTER!" It doesn't fucking work like that. Or rather, it shouldn't. But people these days are so goddamn locked into the FPS and graphics quality and all this other shit (which again I'm sure GPU vendors love) that they just forsake other components, or rather don't give them proper consideration. So no, just telling me that "better speakers aren't worth it because they aren't worth it past a point" doesn't tell me shit, because you can apply that logic to anything. GPU, CPU, RAM, storage, comfy chairs, nice desks (for the record mine is a large one made of solid wood with a nice finish that was 400$ used).... they all have diminishing returns, and again they're all part of you using this computer.
So that extra 20 fps at maxed settings (as opposed to turning down the AA 2 notches)... that's great, mate. But what about sound that helps immerse you in the experience and also blows you away? Keyboard? Mouse? Blur-free monitor (if we're considering the gaming monitors)? Many of these things don't have value until you invest in them and understand them. You can't just walk away saying "there's no way that would make my build any better" until you properly experience said things. Or for instance the 1080p 51 inch plasma that I use for gaming on my recliner with an Xbox 360 controller going to my PC.... and also for watching anime. I mean I already have 1440p, so I totally should never need such a thing right? I have Graphicus Maximus Prime on a 1440p display, so what the hell's the point of gaming on a lower res? Well let's see. More comfy chair, bigger screen (3d capable technically), very relaxed controller gaming. It's fucking awesome.
Long story short, I think people are to obsessed with synthetic, quantitative measurements of build performance. It's plebeian (hahaha... hey I had to put a derogatory term somewhere right). It's taking someone else's word for what really matters to your experience. But like I said part of the issue is lack of ability to actually try out alternatives. That is, a modicum of play money. You already know that a better GPU can help you because you have numbers and tests everywhere showing it to you. You've got results shoved in your face. You can see screenshots. Youtube videos. Whatever. You can understand very easily that this GPU will bring you this much value, and it's the only surefire measuring stick you have. You can't play around with essentially risky investments because humans are risk averse creatures. So you've got this much money to spend, you're naturally going to prioritize things that you can give tangible value for certain. This isn't what you think though. This is what everyone is telling you. But you don't know what you truly think because you don't have enough experience with other components.
That's what I think the issue is on a larger scale in the PC world, and I don't think it's going to be solved. You can let people see GPU and CPU benefits over the internet. You can't make them understand these 600$ earphones. You can't make them understand this chair. You can't make them understand this keyboard. You can't make them understand this monitor. Only people that have experienced multiple leaps of faith in these categories can understand what value these objects bring to them, and then use that knowledge to truly bring their budgets and CPU builds into their own perspective. That doesn't mean they're going to automatically think these other investments are important. No, you may experience this or that and think that the upgrade was useless. That's fine, too. The important thing is making certain of it with yourself.
So no, my budget priorities are going to likely be different from yours. Because I understand about where I stop giving a shit about eyecandy. I know how much I enjoy good quality sound. Etc.
Well not that sound matters because these earphones are going to last me probably a decade anyway (and once I get that ASUS monitor, so will it), so the only thing that matters is when I get the itch for more eyecandy and processing power, since those two things drop in comparative value so quickly, despite us being so quick to prioritize them. A thing that I am sure Intel, MB manufacturers, GPU vendors, RAM manufacturers, etc... love.
EDIT NOPE SORRY SEVERAL PARAGRAPH ESSAY I TYPE TOO FAST LOL
Oh and as for my earphones, the drop in price for Beyerdynamic T1's is rather bizarre. Many people prefer them to HD800's so it's bizarre that these would be half the price right now considering they at one point competed with said earphones (and the HD800's are STILL 1400$ btw). Plus, I didn't go 1->3 and then 3->4 with earphones. The only pair of earphones that I had was a pair of HD280Pro's which I hated wearing. So I investigated and went for the sound signature and best value. And these were the most detailed earphones I could find south of... oh... 1400$ I guess (HD800's). So it's pretty much like I went 1->4 with my earphones. I just went straight to the end point instead of bothering with the intermediate incremental upgrades.
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