Discussion Forums > Politics
2012 US Presidential Election
AceHigh:
Different people make opinions based on different perceptions and since I don't feel like trolling this month, I will try to put out not just arguments, but comparison of our perceptions so that we see why our opinions are so different.
So Burks opinions are governed by a strong sense of ethics and solidarity. I would say that me and Vic are on the same side here and our opinions are guided by the sense of fairness.
Now let's try this on individual level:
You have been working hard your whole life and you managed to financially secure yourself as well as earning that extra to afford luxuries. Another man was lazy during his first period of life and as a result lost the meritocratic race in the job arena as well as making obviously bad choices like crime or drugs resulting him in becoming homeless.
Is it ethically to help a fellow man that has it much worse than you? People with strong sense of solidarity would say that it is you duty to help those less fortunate. People like me and I assume Vic too would ask the question "why should the hard working man be penalized for doing the right choices in life while the losers be rewarded?" as the sense of fairness dictates me to feel.
That was a simple example, because it was on an individual level, but it stays the same no matter how far we go to the macro level.
Some local communities, states and countries became wealthy thanks to their effort, good policies and practical economy models. What grave crimes have they committed, that they should be forced to give away a portion of their wealth to maintain failing communities, states or countries?
The way I see it both arguments are logical, but are seen from different perception and different moral values. The only thing left is agree to disagree.
vicious796:
The common counter is "what about people who did nothing to deserve what they've got?" The men who worked real jobs at manufacturing plants that saw their jobs go overseas and the like. Once again, though, I say communities and local organizations can help those people - not people from across the country.
I also don't believe it's so much as "agree to disagree" as it is "agree to disagree until more experience is had". Nothing against Burk or anyone else who argues against me on this topic, but I honestly don't know anyone who has worked for more than a few years to pay their bills that differs from my opinion. The vast majority of people I know who are pro-federal takeover and social programs are the young (as in less than 5 years out of school) who have not quite felt the sting of income taxes and the feeling of not being able to get whatever you want because you have a family to consider and limited income.
At least, that's the feel I get from Americans. I don't take what Europeans say on the topic very seriously (no offense, Ace) because they simply can not relate to the scale. For some reason, folks don't understand what they're asking out of the US is exactly what they don't want from the EU.
occasional:
--- Quote from: vicious796 on October 15, 2012, 03:53:55 PM ---Why are homeless people in New York City a financial responsibility of the citizens of New Mexico?
--- End quote ---
Because they are American. Unless each states becomes a country, everyone is responsible for everyone.
AceHigh:
No no, I do get it. You always say that I should not compare my country to yours due to the difference in size. At the same time you advocate to decentralize the government to the point of autonomous regions, so they can function on the same scale as the small countries. In fact I never disagreed on that fact, but it was fun to point out the incompetence of US leaders of failing to establish that, in fact the go in the opposite direction where the government is more centralized. Well, at least USA started out as "united states" and slowly turning into a huge unitary country with the negative effects following. EU on other hands started as "failed attempt of a union" and on that poor implementation slide even further in one huge clusterfuck.
--- Quote from: occasional on October 15, 2012, 06:48:56 PM ---
--- Quote from: vicious796 on October 15, 2012, 03:53:55 PM ---Why are homeless people in New York City a financial responsibility of the citizens of New Mexico?
--- End quote ---
Because they are American. Unless each state becomes a country, everyone is responsible for everyone.
--- End quote ---
Look up on the difference between a union of states, a federation and a unitary country. Those are different for a reason. Sure they evolve from one for to another, like for example "United Kingdoms" is in fact a unitary state now, but was not always so. As far as I know USA started out as a loose union of sovereign states and is in a slow transition to a unitary country. I don't have a problem of people wanting one or another, but at the present time the particular union in question doesn't qualify for your statement.
Remove the states, make them nothing more than regions, have identical law everywhere and only then can you claim that everyone is responsible for everyone.
jaybug:
And the red states are already forking over big bucks to the blue states, so they can run their social welfare programs. California, the 7th largest economy, takes in more federal dollars than they give back. So the people in Wyoming have to pay for California's extravagance. You can look it up for your self, I will not hold your hand for you, which states are net providers, and which are net takers.
Too many homeless in Eugene are drug addicted, and or mentally unstable at best, and should be committed to a psychiatric hospital. They stand on the corner at every busy intersection waiting for hand outs from drivers passing by. They are there in good times and in bad. I'd tell you about the bunch of them in one place who were taking turns using a wheel chair to get more money from people, but you wouldn't care.
NYC has the highest taxes I know of in America, why isn't there enough money for them to take care of their homeless? Why do they need money from New Mexico, don't they get to try to take care of their own homeless problem?
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