Author Topic: 2012 US Presidential Election  (Read 14871 times)

Offline zherok

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #180 on: October 15, 2012, 11:48:24 PM »
You can look it up for your self, I will not hold your hand for you, which states are net providers, and which are net takers.
I googled it. The list accounts for population and tax revenue. Fairly sensible to me, it makes little sense to pretend Wyoming should pay an amount commensurate with it's population but receive the same amount California does with 66 times the population of Wyoming.

The top 10:
10. North Dakota
9. Connecticut
8. West Virginia
7. Alabama
6. Kentucky
5. New Mexico
4. Hawaii
3. Maryland
2. Virginia
1. Alaska

I color coded them with the way they went in 2008 for the presidential election, some of them are obviously in play for the current one (well, really only Virginia, though it's leaning blue still). As the article relates, the reason for most of these states ending up on the list is due to military spending. Kentucky interestingly enough seems to be spending it largely on social welfare programs. Fucking blue staters, amiright?

Offline jaybug

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #181 on: October 16, 2012, 12:30:49 AM »
Byron Dorgan, and Kent Conrad have nothing to do with the pork they bring home? Neither did the departed Richard Byrd of West Virginia? All senate democrats.

The other red states, either have very high costs of living, Alaska. Or have high cost government contracts, NASA-Alabama. Where did you think rockets were made? New York City? Or they have senior senators who knew how to get pork to their states. Gee, anything new there?

http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/08/americas-fiscal-union

http://www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/fas-10.pdf
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Offline zherok

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #182 on: October 16, 2012, 02:09:12 AM »
Did you read your sources? I'm not sure you did.

The states that give the most proportionally to what they receive (highest proportional percentage down towards parity with taxing/spending):
Delaware
Minnesota
New Jersey
Illinois
Connecticut
New York
Ohio (toss up this election but currently leaning blue)
Michigan
Nebraska
Massachusetts
Colorado
Wisconsin
Texas
Georgia
Nevada
California
Arkansas
Washington
Rhode Island
New Hampshire

And Pennsylvania apparently more or less receiving what it earns in taxes.

In the red according to the Economist (least in the red to most in the red):
Indiana
North Carolina
Oregon
Kansas
Missouri
Tenessee
Utah
Oklahoma
Florida (though leaning red this year)
Idaho
Iowa
Wyoming
Vermont
Arizona
Louisiana
South Dakota
Kentucky
Hawaii
Virginia (toss up but leaning blue atm)
Alaska
Maryland
Maine
North Dakota
Alabama
Montana
West Virginia
Mississippi
New Mexico
Puerto Rico (doesn't get to vote in general election, but hypothetically would have leaned blue if their governor race is any indication)

So let's illustrate. California produced 336.2 billion dollars in taxes over what was spent in the state. Wyoming spent 19.1 billion dollars more than it generated in taxes. California covered Wyoming's federal deficit 17 1/2 times over.

So you'll have to pardon me if I'm skeptical in believing that all of mostly red-leaning fly over country has either incredibly successful Democratic legislators driving federal spending up in those states and/or housing costs that exceed California and the vast majority of New England.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 02:28:28 AM by zherok »

Offline jaybug

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #183 on: October 16, 2012, 03:09:51 AM »
Wow, I can tell you don't have a job. lol

Sometimes I post, because I am not a politician, and do not need to only show how righteous I am. And it does not mean that I am enamored of all that federal spending to begin with, let alone who gets to spend where.

Much federal spending in Oregon goes to counties, because the feds stopped timber production on federal lands. And guess what? Those counties all got hooked on those federal dollars! And guess what else! They're by and large all very RED counties. But it isn't as if anyone left has a job worth a shit to pay for all the goodies that federal spending had going, so they are in a world of hurt.

This is a good example as to why I am not very fond of 10% across the board cuts in spending, or just throwing numbers around like they do not affect anyone's lives. I care more about people, than I do about any particular candidate getting elected.

And Oregon was stupid to ever have term limits, all it did was to give power away to the South.
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Offline zherok

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #184 on: October 16, 2012, 03:48:33 AM »
Wow, I can tell you don't have a job. lol
I don't, it's last semester at a JC before I transfer to a university. But it doesn't take that long to cross reference an election map with a list of states. Hell, you could have just eyeballed a guess of the breakdown from the map in the Economist article.

Quote
Sometimes I post, because I am not a politician, and do not need to only show how righteous I am. And it does not mean that I am enamored of all that federal spending to begin with, let alone who gets to spend where.
I'm not really concerned with being right, it's just baffling to see conservatives like yourself stake out a position, provide facts, and then have those facts crumble around you. You don't change your position. The numbers say almost the exact opposite of what you wanted to prove. Instead you just race for exceptions, or let it stand alone. It's mind boggling.

Quote
Much federal spending in Oregon goes to counties, because the feds stopped timber production on federal lands. And guess what? Those counties all got hooked on those federal dollars! And guess what else! They're by and large all very RED counties. But it isn't as if anyone left has a job worth a shit to pay for all the goodies that federal spending had going, so they are in a world of hurt.
There's a lot of state-based context missing from the figures, sure. And it's not like the numbers are a direct corollary to presidential voting (despite what Romney suggested with in the 47% video.) But that's sort of the point, you wanted to create the narrative that those large liberal bastions were just soaking up federal dollars, while those hard working red states supported them on their backs. I think the numbers, far from perfect, are still definitive enough to dispel that narrative.

And I'm not saying Democrats aren't spending federal money here, or even that they spend less, but the idea that Republicans actually stick to the fiscal conservatism they espouse so fervently when a Democrat is in office is a bunch of shit. If they practiced what they preached it'd be a different matter.

Quote
This is a good example as to why I am not very fond of 10% across the board cuts in spending, or just throwing numbers around like they do not affect anyone's lives. I care more about people, than I do about any particular candidate getting elected.
I can agree with this. And honestly it's why I'm largely against Romney's tax plan. They're round numbers that sound nice but have little merit in reality. I want specifics not because I don't want him elected, I want to know what he actually intends to do with such a wide reaching plan. I don't think "trust us, the numbers will all work out" is exactly a very good starting point.

Offline Ixarku

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #185 on: October 16, 2012, 10:06:28 AM »
My point is now, has been, and will continue to be that our federal government is too large. When put practically, it's obvious. Most federal branches have state-level equivalents in every single state. There's nothing wrong with having oversight but there is something wrong with being redundant. How many people does it take to set state minimums for education and environmental issues? It certainly doesn't require the hundreds and thousands of jobs they currently have under employ. Jobs that have excellent benefits and a guaranteed 3.5% raise every year. Jobs that are nearly impossible to be fired from.

The size and power of the fed is enormous. It wouldn't be a problem if the entire US all thought, acted, and lived the same - but we don't. It's the same reason I support a universal healthcare system but only on a state level with federally mandated minimums.

I was going to reply yesterday, but I had a lot happening last night.  Now, I gotta get ready for work in a few minutes, so I'll have to keep it short.  You know me in a nutshell -- liberal, college educated, 16 years out of college, home owner for 7 years, IT professional for 12 years.  Never been on welfare or the like, paid for my college schooling with academic scholarships & money I earned by working part-time.
 
While I like that the U.S. has a lot of diversity, at the same time I think that the federal government has an obligation to set and maintain standards for certain things throughout the entire country.  Education, healthcare, and other things that provide the backbone of our society are important enough that I think all citizens should be on equal footing as much as possible.  The problem I have is with how government at the federal, state, and local levels is managed, not with the idea that government should have a hand in these things.  Big government in itself isn't bad, but government run poorly is a disaster, and I don't think that government is inherently or inescapably inefficient.
 
Personally, I want to see the entire healthcare insurance industry disappear.  I think the federal government should set the prices for healthcare services across the entire country, and I'd like to see some fed-controlled agency handle direct payments to doctors & hospitals for healthcare services.  Pricing of healthcare related materials, equipment, and consumables should be subject to some regulation, but it would have to balanced to not stifle research & development.  I'd like to see healthcare services funded primarily by a separate income tax.
 
As far as the military is concerned, I've never been thrilled with the idea that young people look to the military as an opportunity for education.  I'd like to dramatically cut our military budget, withdraw our soldiers from much of the world, particularly from Europe & the Middle East, and funnel the money into education and/or infrastructure instead.
 
Gotta go, no more time for now.
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Offline jaybug

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #186 on: October 16, 2012, 11:34:49 AM »
1. I am not a conservative. It's only how far left you are that makes me seem so. Maybe you ought to move to Eugene, Oregon. You'll fit right er left in.

2. So it's data that has changed since last I saw them. Federal spending changes over time. Where federal dollars gets spent changes also. And when you have the spending from TARP and the Stimulus Bill, that will change about every dynamic.

3. What would those California tax figures look like if Larry Ellison, and all those in Hollywood, basically the 1% of California, were removed from the calculation?

4. It also amazes me that California is such a big tax exporter, when all their crap is in such poor condition. But I guess it is all stuff from before Proposition 13, and not related to federal spending. So much of California is military property, how are they not a tax importer?

5. What will those figures look like when the Stimulus Bill monies are finally doled out, and not replaced with additional federal largess?
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Offline vicious796

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #187 on: October 16, 2012, 12:56:08 PM »
You can look it up for your self, I will not hold your hand for you, which states are net providers, and which are net takers.
I googled it. The list accounts for population and tax revenue. Fairly sensible to me, it makes little sense to pretend Wyoming should pay an amount commensurate with it's population but receive the same amount California does with 66 times the population of Wyoming.

The top 10:
10. North Dakota
9. Connecticut
8. West Virginia
7. Alabama
6. Kentucky
5. New Mexico
4. Hawaii
3. Maryland
2. Virginia
1. Alaska

I color coded them with the way they went in 2008 for the presidential election, some of them are obviously in play for the current one (well, really only Virginia, though it's leaning blue still). As the article relates, the reason for most of these states ending up on the list is due to military spending. Kentucky interestingly enough seems to be spending it largely on social welfare programs. Fucking blue staters, amiright?

Traditionally, Maryland flops and VA goes conservative. The most recent election threw that off, of course, but historically VA is a conservative state and MD follows suit with VA. Source? My family has lived here since the first boat came (literally, I'm descended from the Woodleaf family that was sent over to govern). I'm nitpicking, of course, but only because it hits so close to home and I hate being considered blue.

My point is now, has been, and will continue to be that our federal government is too large. When put practically, it's obvious. Most federal branches have state-level equivalents in every single state. There's nothing wrong with having oversight but there is something wrong with being redundant. How many people does it take to set state minimums for education and environmental issues? It certainly doesn't require the hundreds and thousands of jobs they currently have under employ. Jobs that have excellent benefits and a guaranteed 3.5% raise every year. Jobs that are nearly impossible to be fired from.

The size and power of the fed is enormous. It wouldn't be a problem if the entire US all thought, acted, and lived the same - but we don't. It's the same reason I support a universal healthcare system but only on a state level with federally mandated minimums.

I was going to reply yesterday, but I had a lot happening last night.  Now, I gotta get ready for work in a few minutes, so I'll have to keep it short.  You know me in a nutshell -- liberal, college educated, 16 years out of college, home owner for 7 years, IT professional for 12 years.  Never been on welfare or the like, paid for my college schooling with academic scholarships & money I earned by working part-time.

I know you break the mold but, seriously, you and my step-father are the only two I really know (and I really only know him if you know what I mean).
 
Quote
While I like that the U.S. has a lot of diversity, at the same time I think that the federal government has an obligation to set and maintain standards for certain things throughout the entire country.  Education, healthcare, and other things that provide the backbone of our society are important enough that I think all citizens should be on equal footing as much as possible.  The problem I have is with how government at the federal, state, and local levels is managed, not with the idea that government should have a hand in these things.  Big government in itself isn't bad, but government run poorly is a disaster, and I don't think that government is inherently or inescapably inefficient.

What's important here is the phrase "as much as possible". You're right - we're very, very diverse. However, we're also very spread out and we tend to cluster with those of our own ilk. Families in North Dakota have different backgrounds historically, medically, and culturally than families in Virginia and a single federal mandate in most things won't work for both groups. The Nords that call ND home suffer from different genetic issues than the British living in VA.

Are we a melting pot? Sure - but each state has its own set of citizens that happen to share a background, especially medically. A lot of that is environment. People in CA are more prone to skin cancer than people in Minnesota due to their sunshine and lifestyle. At the same time, people in MN are more likely to get the flu every year due to the cold weather and amount of air they inhale. Two different problems with two different treatments that cost two different amounts.

Educationally, there's a high Asian population in CA and those families are traditionally more school focused than, say, poor white, black, and hispanic families in Louisiana. That high population of Asian students sets a bar that other students want to compete with that the LA kids don't have. Why should citizens of CA, who discipline their children to do well in school, pay for the parents that don't in LA?
 
Quote
Personally, I want to see the entire healthcare insurance industry disappear.  I think the federal government should set the prices for healthcare services across the entire country, and I'd like to see some fed-controlled agency handle direct payments to doctors & hospitals for healthcare services.  Pricing of healthcare related materials, equipment, and consumables should be subject to some regulation, but it would have to balanced to not stifle research & development.  I'd like to see healthcare services funded primarily by a separate income tax.

The problem with this is the lack of potential profit. The government will have a set wage to work with and, therefore, will have to make sacrifices. The doctor's offices will have to all file through the same means which can create a bottleneck of payments. Centralizing things on this large of a scale simply does not work. State level will.
 
Quote
As far as the military is concerned, I've never been thrilled with the idea that young people look to the military as an opportunity for education.  I'd like to dramatically cut our military budget, withdraw our soldiers from much of the world, particularly from Europe & the Middle East, and funnel the money into education and/or infrastructure instead.
 
Gotta go, no more time for now.

I agree with this, 100%. I agree we should downsize our military and redirect some of those funds into education. I don't know why community colleges across America actually cost money (almost as much in tuition as some regular state universities) and only offer 2-year degrees (there are exceptions, of course). However, again, I feel this should be state regulated - just a difference of opinion.


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Offline Lillymon

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #188 on: October 16, 2012, 03:19:52 PM »
1. I am not a conservative. It's only how far left you are that makes me seem so.
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Offline sdedalus83

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #189 on: October 16, 2012, 03:46:34 PM »
As far as the military is concerned, I've never been thrilled with the idea that young people look to the military as an opportunity for education.  I'd like to dramatically cut our military budget, withdraw our soldiers from much of the world, particularly from Europe & the Middle East, and funnel the money into education and/or infrastructure instead.

No president will touch this, since by accident or by design, our military spending provides several million jobs, many of which are occupied by people who would not be employed, or would be earning far less, in the private sector.

Online Burkingam

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #190 on: October 16, 2012, 04:56:40 PM »
It's the same reason I support a universal healthcare system but only on a state level with federally mandated minimums.
You know I don't mind at all who does it as long as it's being done. You could have something akin to Canada's healthcare act where provinces manage everything and the feds provide part of founding as long as certain criteria are respected: must be universal and free and must include this and that services etc.
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Offline zherok

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #191 on: October 16, 2012, 07:37:49 PM »
1. I am not a conservative. It's only how far left you are that makes me seem so. Maybe you ought to move to Eugene, Oregon. You'll fit right er left in.
I have no problem admitting I'm a liberal Democrat. But there's plenty of room to the far left of me. You're no moderate. Maybe you're not enamored with the Republican party, but you certainly seem to agree with them often enough to dispel any pretensions of being near the middle.

I'm nitpicking, of course, but only because it hits so close to home and I hate being considered blue.
I really only looked at the 2008 election map and just went down the list. For what it's worth though, Virginia could tip blue again (it's definitely in the running), and Maryland seems pretty solidly in Obama's corner this election.

Offline AceHigh

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #192 on: October 16, 2012, 09:12:56 PM »
No president will touch this, since by accident or by design, our military spending provides several million jobs, many of which are occupied by people who would not be employed, or would be earning far less, in the private sector.

Well, those "jobs" don't make the country wealthier, because they are useless. It is expenditure, not income for the state. The state would actually have income even if those millions of people were in poorly paid private sector. Hell even if those millions were sitting on welfare it would cost the country less.

For one thing, Tiff is not on any level what I would call a typical American.  She's not what I would consider a typical person.  I don't know any other genius geneticist anime-fan martial artist marksman model-level beauties, do you?

Online Burkingam

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #193 on: October 16, 2012, 09:57:09 PM »
So firing teachers is fair game but firing soldier NUUUUUUUUUUU!!! Is that it?
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Offline Ixarku

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #194 on: October 16, 2012, 09:57:41 PM »
I know you break the mold but, seriously, you and my step-father are the only two I really know (and I really only know him if you know what I mean).

I like to characterize myself as socially liberal and fiscally moderate, though I suppose the latter label is up for debate.  The majority of my long-standing friends are also college educated socially liberal professionals in their 30s or 40s, and the few co-workers I've talked politics with lately are also socially liberal and firmly middle class.  None of the folks I've talked to have been in favor of deregulation or increasing government spending or in favor of cutting taxes on the wealthy, or any of the things that Repubs & Democrats butt heads on.  Keep in mind that I work in banking, servicing the banks themselves, and we see a lot of the crazy stuff that our clients come up with to try to squeeze a few more dollars out of the average consumer.  On one the hand, we try to stay positive and help our clients become more profitable wherever possible, since when they prosper, we prosper, but there's also not a lot of sympathy there from us rank and file IT folks, either.

 
What's important here is the phrase "as much as possible". You're right - we're very, very diverse. However, we're also very spread out and we tend to cluster with those of our own ilk. Families in North Dakota have different backgrounds historically, medically, and culturally than families in Virginia and a single federal mandate in most things won't work for both groups. The Nords that call ND home suffer from different genetic issues than the British living in VA.

Are we a melting pot? Sure - but each state has its own set of citizens that happen to share a background, especially medically. A lot of that is environment. People in CA are more prone to skin cancer than people in Minnesota due to their sunshine and lifestyle. At the same time, people in MN are more likely to get the flu every year due to the cold weather and amount of air they inhale. Two different problems with two different treatments that cost two different amounts.

Educationally, there's a high Asian population in CA and those families are traditionally more school focused than, say, poor white, black, and hispanic families in Louisiana. That high population of Asian students sets a bar that other students want to compete with that the LA kids don't have. Why should citizens of CA, who discipline their children to do well in school, pay for the parents that don't in LA?

You're always going to find an uneven distribution of wealth & resources in any society, though.  Why should the property taxes of wealthy residents in one neighborhood go to fund schools that serve an adjacent neighborhood that's poorer?  For that matter, why should I, as a single man, pay taxes that contribute to public schools which my (non-existent) family will never use?  The divisions between towns, counties, and states are arbitrary and subject to change, which is one of the reasons I have no problem drawing the line at the federal level instead of at the state level.  I see little reason to discriminate between poorer and wealthier states, but I suppose it depends on your goals as a society.  Will it be, every man for himself, to survive or fail on your own merits, or is greater cooperation desirable, with the goal of mutual improvement over time?  There may not be much point in maintaining a union of states if disparities in education and healthcare across state lines continue to grow.

 
Quote
Personally, I want to see the entire healthcare insurance industry disappear.  I think the federal government should set the prices for healthcare services across the entire country, and I'd like to see some fed-controlled agency handle direct payments to doctors & hospitals for healthcare services.  Pricing of healthcare related materials, equipment, and consumables should be subject to some regulation, but it would have to balanced to not stifle research & development.  I'd like to see healthcare services funded primarily by a separate income tax.

The problem with this is the lack of potential profit. The government will have a set wage to work with and, therefore, will have to make sacrifices. The doctor's offices will have to all file through the same means which can create a bottleneck of payments. Centralizing things on this large of a scale simply does not work. State level will.

As far as R&D goes, I would think that government subsidies to manufacturers in order to offset pricing restrictions would probably be necessary.  Maybe that's unnecessarily complicated; perhaps it would simply be better for the government to buy drugs at one price and resell at a loss to healthcare providers, I'm not sure.  There's a lot of moving parts that I'm not sure how it would need to work.
 
As far as payments for medical services go, we live in the 21st century.  Technology in the payments sector continues to evolve rapidly, so I think the success of this would hinge on implementation of a robust software system and all of the supporting pieces behind it.  I work for a company that handles billions of financial transactions a year on a large variety of systems, so I know it's possible, even though it would be a massive undertaking.  As far as I'm concerned, it's well past time that the healthcare industry catches up with the rest of the world in technology.  If we can put a man on the moon, we should be able to design & implement a software system with the infrastructure behind it to make it happen.
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Offline sdedalus83

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #195 on: October 16, 2012, 10:41:34 PM »
So firing teachers is fair game but firing soldier NUUUUUUUUUUU!!! Is that it?

Doing something which would add 2 or 3 percent to the unemployment number would be political suicide even if it's probably the right thing to do.  And as we saw when Obama wanted to create a public works alternative to military service, 'socialism' is a scourge unless it involves sending teenagers to go kill brown people.  In that case, it's good ole patriotism.

Offline jaybug

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #196 on: October 16, 2012, 11:19:15 PM »
You worry too much over assigning labels and blame than you worry about solving problems.

45 minutes to go, can you stand it?
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Offline Ixarku

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #197 on: October 16, 2012, 11:28:47 PM »
45 minutes to go, can you stand it?

Oh, that's tonight?  Fuck that, I'd rather (insert your favorite obscenity here) then play guitar for 2 hours and go to bed.
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Offline megido-rev.M

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #198 on: October 17, 2012, 12:39:52 AM »
It's on right now.

Offline jaybug

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #199 on: October 17, 2012, 02:23:05 AM »
If I wasn't at work, I wish I would have been there with a sack of groceries. Just like Vaudeville. lol

From what little I have read since it ended. You can stop playing that *expletive deleted* guitar now Ix. It doesn't look like anyone changed their minds. And I am not so sure that the undecided have minds. Gee, I hope that doesn't mean they are liberals.
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