Author Topic: 2012 US Presidential Election  (Read 14816 times)

Offline zherok

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #600 on: November 12, 2012, 11:46:49 PM »
I have no problem with a license system for bars or restaurants that allow smoking.  Establishments that serve alcohol already have to have liquor licenses, at least in the state of Florida, so it's not like it'd be much of a stretch.  The logistics are solveable, the rest is just details.  And local municipalities or counties should have the discretion to decide how many licenses to issue, so if one county wants to promote a non-smoking environment, they can choose not to issue any licenses at all, or very few.  The point is to allow communities to decide for themselves.
You don't have to go back that far to a point where smoking sections in restaurants were practically ubiquitous. =/

We can talk about choice, but I wonder how much of a chance you'd have at being able to work in the restaurant industry where they didn't opt to cater to 20% of the population. Restaurants were certainly willing to contain both options within the same establishments in the past.

Online Ixarku

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #601 on: November 13, 2012, 01:23:31 AM »
You don't have to go back that far to a point where smoking sections in restaurants were practically ubiquitous. =/

We can talk about choice, but I wonder how much of a chance you'd have at being able to work in the restaurant industry where they didn't opt to cater to 20% of the population. Restaurants were certainly willing to contain both options within the same establishments in the past.

I'm older than a lot of folks here, old enough to have actually eaten in a restaurant that had a smoking section.  And I've been to plenty of Metal shows where the smell of weed or cigarette smoke was enough to make me sick.  I dunno, personally I'm tired of the whole smoking versus non-smoking debate.  Either ban it outright like we have certain other harmful substances or give the smokers space within reason to do their own thing.  This halfway thing of eroding their rights a little bit at a time is the same kind of tactic the conservatives use when pushing to change abortion laws, or when pushing to get religion more imbedded into various aspects of life, and it bugs me.
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Offline zherok

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #602 on: November 13, 2012, 01:42:52 AM »
I'm older than a lot of folks here, old enough to have actually eaten in a restaurant that had a smoking section.
I was 11 when California enacted the first state-wide smoking ban in 1995. I've eaten in a restaurant that had a smoking section too. Plenty of states that didn't enact it until much later, actually. Or at all, yet. Apparently Arizona wasn't until 2007.

Either ban it outright like we have certain other harmful substances or give the smokers space within reason to do their own thing.
Given how successful banning substances actually is (never mind things like marijuana, just think of prohibition) I'm not sure how useful the first option would be.

Regardless of whether it's acceptable in private places, I can't say I miss it from public ones. And I'm not sure the right to practice smoking automatically entails having to cater locations to their habit either.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 01:45:54 AM by zherok »

Offline Burkingam

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #603 on: November 13, 2012, 04:53:00 AM »
No, I'm against making cigarette illegal for the same reasons I'm for pot legalization. All it would do is give more money to organised crimes while we send people to prison for ridiculously small offences. But not making it illegal doesn't mean we should make it as easy as possible to smoke and as hard as possible to quit. I don't think we should ruin smoker's life in general but I do think we should discouraged and marginalize the act of smoking itself.
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Offline Nikkoru

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #604 on: November 13, 2012, 08:24:48 AM »
We're making more of an impact eliminating smoking as an addiction than any other recreational drug. and it's precisely because they're legal that we can do that effectively.

As for a license system, no. For the same reason a coal mine can't have a license to ignore regulations because "freedom".
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Offline AceHigh

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #605 on: November 13, 2012, 09:18:11 AM »
Coal mine comparison like that fails hard. If smoking was to be regulated like coal mine working conditions, then there would be a requirement for public smoking areas to have sufficient ventilation. If coal mines had the same type of regulation as the smoking ban, then the mining itself would be banned.

Huge difference, not that you care now that you admitted that the goal is indeed to eliminate smoking, not to protect others from second hand smoke and other bullshit reasons.
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Offline Nikkoru

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #606 on: November 13, 2012, 10:50:50 AM »
I want to eliminate smoking, yes. I don't want people to die from second hand smoke either. I don't see the inconsistency there. Smoking and its byproducts are responsible for millions of deaths, even more disease, and a significant amount of money and resources are wasted to deal with entirely preventable medical conditions caused by smoking  -- I'll admit, my agenda is stop that, and I may do so professionally in time. Human life has value to me, guilty as charged.

Furthermore

I want the public to be healthy and workers to operate in a safe environment. Bar and tavern employees have higher rates of lung cancer than almost all other occupations, even fire fighters and miners. There are more deadly chemicals in a cigarette than in a coal mine, including arsenic, ammonia and fuckingƒ cyanide. Relative to patrons, hospitality workers are actually in a worse position because their level of activity leads to more inhalation of the toxins and more contact with the residue on surfaces. Had smoking not been a cultural artifact, and studies on second hand smoke been made clear earlier, this wouldn't even be a discussion.

Again, as to "find work elsewhere" argument, I reiterate "fuck you". Economic coercion is a part of capitalism, this is why we've got unions and regulations in the first place -- people working in inhospitable conditions still want to work. What I'm saying is they shouldn't be forced to put up with one for the other. Some people can quit, other can't, I care about the them too.

Hospitality workers are predominately non-union jobs filled by female, working class, high-school educated workers. They've got next to no voice in power, especially compared to their employers who usually make the backbone of the increasingly important tourism industry. 

Whereas coal mining was a dangerous profession, billions of dollars have been spent to develop methods and technologies to greatly and efficiently mitigate those dangers -- the risks they currently face when performed in a legally compliant mine are entirely reasonable and not any more significant than log-cutters or construction workers. Firefighters face the possibility of death in their daily work, they are trained and outfitted with the best in modern equipment and they have strict procedures and rules to best reduce risk. Their work has an obvious social necessity.

Hospitality establishments however, have proven economically viable regardless of smoking bans in spite of rhetoric. That harm in itself is unreasonable, it serve no purpose other than to cater to those using a recreational drug. I've never heard of tavern owners expending any effort to protect their staff, I suspect the costs of doing so would be prohibitive.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 10:55:32 AM by Nikkoru »
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Online Ixarku

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #607 on: November 13, 2012, 11:06:39 AM »
No, I'm against making cigarette illegal for the same reasons I'm for pot legalization. All it would do is give more money to organised crimes while we send people to prison for ridiculously small offences. But not making it illegal doesn't mean we should make it as easy as possible to smoke and as hard as possible to quit. I don't think we should ruin smoker's life in general but I do think we should discouraged and marginalize the act of smoking itself.

You can't marginalize smoking without marginalizing smokers.  Making some small number of places available for them to gather does not mean it will be 'as easy as possible' to smoke.  What it might do is actually earn a little goodwill from smokers, who might not feel like they are being attacked as a group, which in turn might remove a bit of the resistance they have towards changing their activities.
 
We're making more of an impact eliminating smoking as an addiction than any other recreational drug. and it's precisely because they're legal that we can do that effectively.

By extension, legalizing or at least decriminalizing marijuana and harder drugs would make it easier to eliminate those as well.

As for a license system, no. For the same reason a coal mine can't have a license to ignore regulations because "freedom".

Sorry Nik, but this just makes NO sense.  States already issue licenses for all sorts of activities (hunting, fishing, driving, etc) and for all sorts of types of businesses (liquor licenses and construction come to mind).  There is no federal law that applies to smoking or would supercede state regulation that I've ever heard of, so I don't see a lot standing in the way of state or local governments choosing to regulate smoking in a similar fashion to other activities.  I speculate that governments don't do it now probably because of a) the outrage further attempts to control smokers would generate among that group, and b) there's no driving reason to do it.  The logistics of a licensing system are possible though, and the only thing that would prevent it is ideological opposition.  I can appreciate a desire to eliminate smoking, but I simply don't agree with your reasoning.
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Offline Nikkoru

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #608 on: November 13, 2012, 11:41:34 AM »
(click to show/hide)

Firstly, we are marginalizing smokers, your addiction is unwanted in modern society. You can claim that's wrong, but I see no justification as to why it should be treated any different. We don't go out of our way to appease alcoholics. That said, there's no reason why smokers should not have places where they're free to light up, they simply have to be where there is no reason to assume that will jeopardize the health of others.

Liquor licenses and construction licenses come with a laundry list of regulations behind them -- on construction sites, workers have a whole slew of regulations protecting them from workplace injuries. If taverns and bars can do the same, fine. I don't accept any scenario which means someone is likely to get lung cancer or emphysema because it's marginally profitable to the owners.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 11:43:10 AM by Nikkoru »
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Offline Burkingam

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #609 on: November 13, 2012, 02:31:26 PM »
No, I'm against making cigarette illegal for the same reasons I'm for pot legalization. All it would do is give more money to organised crimes while we send people to prison for ridiculously small offences. But not making it illegal doesn't mean we should make it as easy as possible to smoke and as hard as possible to quit. I don't think we should ruin smoker's life in general but I do think we should discouraged and marginalize the act of smoking itself.

You can't marginalize smoking without marginalizing smokers.  Making some small number of places available for them to gather does not mean it will be 'as easy as possible' to smoke.  What it might do is actually earn a little goodwill from smokers, who might not feel like they are being attacked as a group, which in turn might remove a bit of the resistance they have towards changing their activities.

So how about people who like to hit their head against a wall violently? I mean that's a pretty weird thing to do. If they start doing it in your restaurant you might want to stop them or even ask them to leave and nobody in their right mind would find it weird. It's definitively not a healthy habit. We definitively don't want to encourage it as a society. If it became a comportment sufficiently common that a few special restaurant would allow people you run their head against the wall as hard as they can while they wait for their food, then you might want to do something against them. Yet, if you learn that a friend of your likes to hit his head against a wall, would brake your friendship just for that. You wouldn't fire an employee just because he told you he thinks it's fun to do that. You wouldn't throw people in jail because they were cut doing it. In other worst, hitting one's head against a wall is a marginalized act but we don't necessarily marginalize people in general who do it.

Of course where my metaphor stops working is that contrarily to smoking, hitting your own head against a wall doesn't physically hurt bystanders.
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Offline jaybug

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #610 on: November 13, 2012, 03:06:24 PM »
Oregon banned the smoking thing a couple of Januarys ago. No one died from that yet. Although maybe some got bad colds from having to go outside to smoke in winter. Don't hit bars much anymore to really know, but I know of only one closing sine ban instituted. Can't prove it was the ban that forced closure.

Naw, the university I work for now has a tobacco free policy. No smoking, chewing, nada. And I haven't been able to quit yet. So I worry about getting caught, and getting disciplined, even though no one is remotely near me, and I am outside.
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Online Ixarku

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #611 on: November 13, 2012, 10:22:26 PM »
Firstly, we are marginalizing smokers, your addiction is unwanted in modern society. You can claim that's wrong, but I see no justification as to why it should be treated any different. We don't go out of our way to appease alcoholics. That said, there's no reason why smokers should not have places where they're free to light up, they simply have to be where there is no reason to assume that will jeopardize the health of others.

Liquor licenses and construction licenses come with a laundry list of regulations behind them -- on construction sites, workers have a whole slew of regulations protecting them from workplace injuries. If taverns and bars can do the same, fine. I don't accept any scenario which means someone is likely to get lung cancer or emphysema because it's marginally profitable to the owners.

@Nik:  I can't state this enough, I don't smoke, I've never, ever smoked anything, and personally I hate being around it.   So it's not my addiction, it's somebody else's.   Claiming it's 'unwanted in modern society' is stretching the truth since there's obviously a demographic that embraces tobacco use.   Don't claim to speak for everybody, because anti-smoking groups do not.  So what you essentially want to do is to protect some people from themselves.  While it's laudable to want to protect non-smokers from the effects of smoking, doing so while eroding the rights of people who don't want to be protected from themselves is a tricky proposition at best, and morally debatable.  What I've been arguing for all along is for smokers to be afforded an opportunity to smoke in a controlled setting that caters only and specifically to their demographic, in such a fashion that it does not effect non-smokers.  To use a colloquial expression, "Let me go to Hell my way, and you can go to Hell your way."
 
And I disagree that we 'don't go out of our way to appease alcoholics'.  Alcohol consumption is widespread and widely tolerated.  Some alcoholics can and do function in society without being complete failures as people.  At the risk of drifting into hyperbole, rehab is practically a way of like in places life Hollywood.  Abuse of alcohol is rampant, but there's little debate about curbing its use in public or private settings -- most of the focus is on promoting responsible behavior rather than limiting where people can drink.  If cigarettes didn't give off stinking carcinogenic fumes that sicken other people and cause all sorts of health problems, this wouldn't even be a discussion; tobacco would be treated the same way as alcohol or caffeine, subject to regulation but otherwise tolerated.
 
I also want to point out that my attitude towards cigarette smoking is the same towards smoking marijuana.  So I find it really weird that some Americans are pushing towards legalizing weed, while others are pushing to ultimately ban tobacco.  It's all the same thing to me.
 
It boils down that I don't believe in bullying people into good behavior.  Educate, incentivize, condition or train people if it's necessary, but I'm not a fan of heavy-handed tactics.
 
 
@Burk:  As an anti-smoker, you may not think that you're marginalizing smokers, but try asking someone who smokes what they think of attempts to curb smoking.  Odds are, you're not going to have to search very hard to find some folks who believe they're being persecuted -- I know a few such people personally.  I don't think you're going to find a lot of smokers who think that they have the right to force bystanders to breathe their smoke, but there are plenty who think they should have the right to do whatever they want to themselves as long as it doesn't affect non-smokers.
 
 
OK, since we got so far off topic for so long, I won't argue my point any further.
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Offline jaybug

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #612 on: November 13, 2012, 10:56:08 PM »
IF this thread is any indication, nothing will get done in Washington D.C. for at least the next two years, and will result in a massive defeat of Democratic candidates, because they were busy legislating our behaviors just as badly as the religious right would have done had they been in the majority.

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Online Ixarku

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #613 on: November 13, 2012, 11:28:32 PM »
IF this thread is any indication, nothing will get done in Washington D.C. for at least the next two years, and will result in a massive defeat of Democratic candidates, because they were busy legislating our behaviors just as badly as the religious right would have done had they been in the majority.

"I break with thee, I break with thee, and then you throw doggie poop on her shoes."

I dunno, I think what happens 2 years from now depends on if the Republican party can get its act together, which is certainly possible.  But I do totally expect that during the next 2 years, we're going to see more useless dithering and bickering in Congress.  Hell, I'll be satisfied if the only thing they manage to do is to avert the 'fiscal cliff' and somehow not screw up anything else.  My expectations are at an all-time low.
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Offline Tiffanys

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #614 on: November 14, 2012, 12:03:39 PM »
I also want to point out that my attitude towards cigarette smoking is the same towards smoking marijuana.  So I find it really weird that some Americans are pushing towards legalizing weed, while others are pushing to ultimately ban tobacco.  It's all the same thing to me.

Well, someone's never watched marijuana propaganda... >_>

  • Marijuana does not cause lung cancer, tobacco does. Marijuana may actually lower your chances of cancer.
  • Marijuana is not addictive.
  • People usually don't chain smoke marijuana many at a time unlike tobacco.
  • Tobacco contains nicotine, and marijuana doesn’t.
  • Marijuana contains THC which means it works like a cough drop and opens up your lungs, which aids clearance of smoke and dirt. Nicotine does just the opposite; it makes your lungs bunch up and makes it harder to cough anything up.
  • Cannabis smoke less carcinogenic than tobacco smoke
  • In terms of an intoxicant, alcohol causes far more harm.
  • Marijuana doesn't need to be smoked and if it were legal and cheaper, any negative health effect would be negated entirely by say... eating it in other foods.
  • blah blah blah

Offline jaybug

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #615 on: November 14, 2012, 02:11:42 PM »
And some of us are advocating for hemp production, on the basis of it being a better commodity to produce on several levels than cotton mostly, and soy in certain applications.

You have hemp in your wallet! It's called money. It isn't 100% hemp, but it still has some used in the bill's composition, due to the fibers superior durability qualities.
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Offline Burkingam

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #616 on: November 14, 2012, 03:52:57 PM »
Marijuana does not cause lung cancer, tobacco does. Marijuana may actually lower your chances of cancer.
Except it does.
http://erj.ersjournals.com/content/31/2/280.long
Marijuana is not addictive.
Except it is(albeit less than tobacco):
http://europepmc.org/articles/PMC2805269/

Although I do think it's a good point that it's much less addictive than tobacco.

People usually don't chain smoke marijuana many at a time unlike tobacco.
True, although that's irrelevant when we consider whether or not it should be banned from public spaces.

Tobacco contains nicotine, and marijuana doesn’t.
Indeed, the active substance in Cannabis is THC not nicotine.

Marijuana contains THC which means it works like a cough drop and opens up your lungs, which aids clearance of smoke and dirt. Nicotine does just the opposite; it makes your lungs bunch up and makes it harder to cough anything up.
I'd really like to know where this assertion is coming from.

Cannabis smoke less carcinogenic than tobacco smoke
You do realize this is in direct contraction with your first point right?

In terms of an intoxicant, alcohol causes far more harm.
Ok sure.

Marijuana doesn't need to be smoked and if it were legal and cheaper, any negative health effect would be negated entirely by say... eating it in other foods.
Neither does nicotine as with Chewing tobacco, Tobacco gums, Nicotine patches and Electronic cigarettes.




Yeah I'm in favor of pot legalization, but just like tobacco, I don't think it's use should be encouraged or accommodated. I just think pure prohibition is a failure. That's a pretty stupid reason to send people in prison and it's more or less the equivalent of giving money to organized crimes. Plus, we can put heavy taxes on it to pay our dept.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 04:00:43 PM by Burkingam »
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Offline jaybug

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #618 on: November 14, 2012, 08:28:21 PM »
Quote
Yeah I'm in favor of pot legalization, but just like tobacco, I don't think it's use should be encouraged or accommodated. I just think pure prohibition is a failure. That's a pretty stupid reason to send people in prison and it's more or less the equivalent of giving money to organized crimes. Plus, we can put heavy taxes on it to pay our dept.

Except for the last sentence, one could use that argument over abortion. Legal, but not encouraged. And wouldn't it be nice if the religious right did more for the kids that we do have? Help more in schools, aggressively adopt children...what else?
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Offline Burkingam

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Re: 2012 US Presidential Election
« Reply #619 on: November 14, 2012, 09:46:30 PM »
Quote
Yeah I'm in favor of pot legalization, but just like tobacco, I don't think it's use should be encouraged or accommodated. I just think pure prohibition is a failure. That's a pretty stupid reason to send people in prison and it's more or less the equivalent of giving money to organized crimes. Plus, we can put heavy taxes on it to pay our dept.

Except for the last sentence, one could use that argument over abortion. Legal, but not encouraged. And wouldn't it be nice if the religious right did more for the kids that we do have? Help more in schools, aggressively adopt children...what else?
Except I don't see any negative effect to abortion in general, unless we are talking about late term abortion. I can not possibly take  an organism's dignity if it doesn't even have a nervous system, so there is nothing wrong with killing a fetus early on, unless the mother wants to carry on her pregnancy of course. On the contrary, unwanted pregnancies contribute to all kinds of major problems in our society.

But of course, we should favor other kinds of contraception first. Having an abortion might be less dangerous for the mother than the pregnancy, an IUD or the Pill or Condoms are even less dangerous.
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