Author Topic: U.S. ambassador to Libya killed in rocket attack  (Read 2081 times)

Offline Soryon

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Re: U.S. ambassador to Libya killed in rocket attack
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2012, 12:20:28 AM »
If you keep doing this you shouldn't be surprised about things like 9/11, and to get that straight, I'm not saying that 9/11 was a good thing, but it showed the US what they are doing to others. 9/11 had 3000 civilians killed, do you know how much civilians were killed by the US in Afghanistan? I think it was 15.000 or 50.000 (I really forgot about which one was the real number). At the end they said sorry, and everything was done.
Not that I think killing civilians is a good thing, but you are bat-shit crazy if you think that the "enemy" would refrain from doing the exact same thing. No, in fact I think they would do so intentionally. At least the US tries to avoid it, most of the time. If a combatant is going to be doing their dirty work with the company of civilians, then its as much their own fault as anyone elses if some shit doesn't go perfectly as planned. Otherwise everyone could just hang out in public. As long as their are other civilians around you are no longer a fair target. Right? HOLY SHIT, WHY HAS NO ONE EVERY THOUGHT OF THIS BEFORE? How can people possible suffer casualties of war with such an easy fool proof method of protection?

This isnt a game of golf. The less equipped team doesnt get a handicap.

Na, that is just a little rant and I dont care too deeply about the subject to get into a debate. I just think its funny when people point out civilian casualties as if the other side would not only do the same thing, but would most intentionally do it at any opportunity, had they been given any. I am not, however, justifying targeting civilians, nor US involvement in the first place.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 12:48:29 AM by Soryon »

Offline jaybug

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Re: U.S. ambassador to Libya killed in rocket attack
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2012, 12:28:39 AM »
Yeah, it is somewhat different when your opponent hides behind women and children, hides weapons in places of worship...And the recruiting is a little different too. ONe side promises 72 virgins to have sex with for eternity, the other gives you cash for either just talking, or telling on your 'friends' Of course that does not apply to the Pakistani doctor who told the US forces how to find binLaden, as Obama ratted him out and he sits in a Pakistani jail.
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Offline Rayu5

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Re: U.S. ambassador to Libya killed in rocket attack
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2012, 02:42:14 AM »
How can you say the US is trying to avoid it? The US did it in Irak too, if you count all civialians from all countries together that were "saved from Terrorism" or are being "saved" (I'm not even counting the times back in the days when Comunism was the enemy)  by the US, 9/11 is a joke compared to that.

And I don't think that Al Qaida would be "hiding" if they were as powerfull as the US, you can see this throughout history, it's some sort of guerilla, even americans did this, and back in the days it was seen as a very cowardly style of combat. If you can't compete with your enemy head-on you'll find another way, that's the most basic thing to do. Plus you should realize that Al Qaida has become a brand, there are fully separated groups that act on their own and say they belong to Al Qaida.


Do you really think any Pakistani or muslim or whatever would care about the US if they would stop interfering everywhere? How about the delicate topic of Palestine and Israel? You can barely see actions taken by the US even though Israel ignores even the red cross, not just the Geneva Convention etc.

The US picks it's enemies, they don't really choose to help make the world a better place or something. And while everybody knows that the government is actually shitting around for resources and power everybody simply forgets about that or says its a "misrepresentation" . The real enemies for the US are those who weaken the economy (Maybe you did recognize that a lot of "Islamic" countries don't use only USD anymore but also accept Euro or Yen or whatever when selling oil for example).

I think we're kinda drifting away, but at the end I think that Obama shouldn't even say something like that. A mob killed an ambassador and now you want to do what? Kill those civilians? Kill an ambassador from Libya? Kill someone from the practically not exsisting government? Punish Libya by cutting off some sort of good? Yeah all those things sound like a legitimate thing to do. I don't see how the US want to do anything against it.

And while I fully understand that it's not something to be taken very lightly I don't see another option. If it was a certain group (of people) that planned to kill him the US Government can't do shit, they might start investigating on their own or something to get them but I think it is unlikely that it will be solved wether it was a group that intentionally killed him or a "random attack"

Offline Soryon

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Re: U.S. ambassador to Libya killed in rocket attack
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2012, 02:48:07 AM »
And you totally missed the point.

Offline jaybug

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Re: U.S. ambassador to Libya killed in rocket attack
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2012, 04:23:14 AM »
I guess he never heard of Dresden, Tokyo, or carpet bombing in general.
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Offline Nikkoru

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Re: U.S. ambassador to Libya killed in rocket attack
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2012, 04:40:28 AM »
Nuke the shit out of every single islamic country and make praying to Allah a kill on sight crime or highly finance stuff that would actually make their life better, but add a consistent subdued pro-west/anti-Allah attitude towards it, highly limit poverty, etc. Happy people don't choose to blow up followed by "soft force" integration policies after a decade.

I'd probably choose between these two with a coin toss.

Influencing the markets to make a pro-American attitude the means for potential economic development is what they're doing, it's why Egypt the Libya would not actively support anything against American interests even if they put on Islamist overtones.

Gather a lot of unemployed and disgruntled male twenty-somethings in one spot and shit is going to go down, this is an unfortunate historic truth.   
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Offline xfreidax

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Re: U.S. ambassador to Libya killed in rocket attack
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2012, 05:50:36 AM »
Not actively support anything against American interests? Er.... in case you haven't noticed. Egypt just overthrew US backed Mubarak not too long ago. I'd say the Americans and Israeli's were both very interested in that lol.

And Mohamed Morsi becoming the new Egyptian President? I'm sure the Americans are not thrilled by that either.  :P

Offline Soryon

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Re: U.S. ambassador to Libya killed in rocket attack
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2012, 06:11:52 AM »
I'm sure the Americans are not thrilled by that either.  :P
Yea, thats the thing right there. Americans dont care. Most of us just want to pull the fuck out of all of it. But yea, I guess its cool if everyone thinks that all us citizens are careless warmongers. Maybe at least it will keep you in check if we ever meet in person.

Sorry, I always gotta say some shit when people are too dense to realize that military/gvmnt does not equal public mentality.

( will likely realize that this post was ill thought out and poorly stated once I sober up, but for now, it is what it is.)
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 06:15:08 AM by Soryon »

Offline xfreidax

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Re: U.S. ambassador to Libya killed in rocket attack
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2012, 06:26:29 AM »
Woooo touched a nerve it seems. I'll be happy to rephrase that, seeing as how that's what I meant anyway.

I'm sure the folks behind American foreign policy, meaning the government, are not too thrilled by that either.

My bad, I thought the implications were obvious.  :o

(Will realise how this post was totally unnecessary when I get drunk, but for now, I'm shaking in ma pants dude.)
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 06:35:38 AM by xfreidax »

Offline Soryon

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Re: U.S. ambassador to Libya killed in rocket attack
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2012, 06:30:20 AM »
Even you can understand how it could be misconstrued when you use the term "americans" when in fact you are only referring to a select few, huh? Oooh, so you meant the people who make foreign policy? I can totally see how you would use the term americans and expect us all to know that you only meant those dudes, becuase it would have been pretty fucking hard to have simply said that in the first place and not sounded like a tool.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 06:52:50 AM by Soryon »

Offline xfreidax

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Re: U.S. ambassador to Libya killed in rocket attack
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2012, 06:38:31 AM »
Erm.... no just no dude lmao. You know what fuck that. I take it back X2.

That's exactly what I meant you retard redneck fat ass American.  ;)

Offline Soryon

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Re: U.S. ambassador to Libya killed in rocket attack
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2012, 06:45:13 AM »
You are one dense mother fucker. This isnt the only time I have seen you try to lump an entire nation together with some bullshit by a tiny number of its occupants. But its really great to always see you backtrack and claim its not what you meant. Well, if its not what you meant then try using language that clearly states what you mean instead of just using the name of a race or a nation. Sub group x or sub group y. Its not hard. Thanks.

and yes I am still drunk and should likely not be posting, but you are also still a moron if you honestly cant see how the language you use can influence how people interpret your post. But I am going to love it when I wake up in the morning and have to think to myself "what in the world was I on about last night?"
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 07:02:06 AM by Soryon »

Offline Nikkoru

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Re: U.S. ambassador to Libya killed in rocket attack
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2012, 07:00:09 AM »
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Offline xfreidax

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Re: U.S. ambassador to Libya killed in rocket attack
« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2012, 07:02:09 AM »
You need to stop going overdrive with the edits, it's hard for me to keep track and respond lol. I don't hide my disdain for what your government does on these boards. Never have, never will. If you want to project that onto all Americans, hey it's your call. I can live with that, won't be losing any sleep here.

P.S I don't give a flying fuck about you to be honest but you seem to have a bone to pick with me so....

I'll come back and edit everything after I get drunk tonight.  ;)

Offline Sashamaru

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Re: U.S. ambassador to Libya killed in rocket attack
« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2012, 07:47:32 AM »
I'll come back and edit everything after I get drunk tonight.  ;)

I've got a better idea. Come back in a couple weeks when you learn how talk to other people respectfully.

Anyone else who can't handle this discussion topic without flaming other members had best GTFO. Otherwise, thread gets locked and more bans get handed out.

Offline metro.

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Re: U.S. ambassador to Libya killed in rocket attack
« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2012, 09:17:27 AM »
That seemed like fun...

Regardless, taking out an ambassador is less a case of planning and more a case of breaking the whole "don't kill our ambassador, we won't kill yours" deal. Not like they were really that subtle about it.

I'm gunna leave you anyway.

Offline Ixarku

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Re: U.S. ambassador to Libya killed in rocket attack
« Reply #36 on: September 14, 2012, 10:18:29 AM »
I think I've made my own opinion about anti-American sentiment known often enough here.  I identify pretty closely with my country even though I hate quite a few of our leaders and I disagree with a lot of our official policy, especially in foreign affairs.  Somewhat irrationally, I tend to take anti-American opinion personally, but this is largely because I believe in a lot of our ideals even though our leadership is almost completely fucked up.
 
People say we 'deserve' to be attacked -- we the civilians & the majority of our soldiers don't, we're not the ones choosing to deploy troops in Timbuktu or other places.  The vast majority of us don't have financial interests in other parts of the world that need to be protected.  Most of us didn't give a damn about Islam before we were attacked.  Most of us are simply trying to survive and prosper the same as any other people anywhere else in the world.
 
What makes America different is that we do have a strong sense of nationalism, and our politicians & their support staff have been carefully manipulating that for decades to present an illusion of solidarity to the rest of the world, and to garner support from Americans, even though everyone knows that we're divided on foreign affairs.  Our politicians & other people of power have learned a lot about manipulating people in the years since Vietnam.  I do think it's important to make a distinction between the American leaders and the American people -- since most of the latter do not even understand that they are being manipulated.  If people want to blame us for being stupid, that's fine, but don't blame us for policy decisions that we don't make directly.
 
And like any other group of people, we have our smart, rational people, we have our trolls, and we have our idiots.  While some minority of people say with conviction, "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out!", it's mistake for anyone to infer that most Americans support putting this into action as any kind of real policy.
 
Personally, I'm of the mind that we should back off our military presence throughout the world.  I think Europe and the Middle East and Asia should fend for themselves for a while.  I think the U.S. needs to concentrate on improving its condition at home, and it should respect the rights of other people to solve their own problems.  At the same time, I can't help but to think that the political situation in the world will become more unstable.  Who else is willing and capable enough to step into the vacuum to provide military intervention if it's needed?  If the U.S. backs off, I don't want to hear about people in other countries begging for U.S. intervention to end some civil war or to overthrow some dictator.  The world can't have it both ways, folks.
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Offline AceHigh

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Re: U.S. ambassador to Libya killed in rocket attack
« Reply #37 on: September 14, 2012, 12:24:36 PM »
People say we 'deserve' to be attacked -- we the civilians & the majority of our soldiers don't, we're not the ones choosing to deploy troops in Timbuktu or other places.  The vast majority of us don't have financial interests in other parts of the world that need to be protected.  Most of us didn't give a damn about Islam before we were attacked.  Most of us are simply trying to survive and prosper the same as any other people anywhere else in the world.

As long as you claim to be a representative democracy, both civilians and everyone else is responsible for your leader's actions. Your leader represents you, the citizen and everything he does, is reflecting the majority of the nation. There is no weasling out of it.
For one thing, Tiff is not on any level what I would call a typical American.  She's not what I would consider a typical person.  I don't know any other genius geneticist anime-fan martial artist marksman model-level beauties, do you?

Offline Soryon

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Re: U.S. ambassador to Libya killed in rocket attack
« Reply #38 on: September 14, 2012, 12:28:28 PM »
People say we 'deserve' to be attacked -- we the civilians & the majority of our soldiers don't, we're not the ones choosing to deploy troops in Timbuktu or other places.  The vast majority of us don't have financial interests in other parts of the world that need to be protected.  Most of us didn't give a damn about Islam before we were attacked.  Most of us are simply trying to survive and prosper the same as any other people anywhere else in the world.

As long as you claim to be a representative democracy, both civilians and everyone else is responsible for your leader's actions. Your leader represents you, the citizen and everything he does, is reflecting the majority of the nation. There is no weasling out of it.
Tee problem with this is say we elect a president who gets only 51% of the popular votes. does that mean the other 49 who voted against him are also at fault? I honestly dont care. There is no "weasling" out of the fact that you are condemning half a nation for its other halfs values. A democracy may determine the president, but it doesnt not so well determine his actions. Come on dude, you at least understand that much, right?

Not to mention its p much impossible to get a candidate who would do exactly what you would like them to do. Protip- no one ever votes for war, but we dont exactly get that option in the ballot box. I hate as much as the nest person what the govt does, but you only have so many options when voting and you try to vote for the one who will at least maybe do something you like along with the shit you dont. Are we somewhat to blame? thats a good question and bares a whole shit load more research them just assuming that since we vote we bare the blame. Ofc I think this is messed up and if I could I would change lots of things. Most of us would.

(I take this position any time I see a blanket statement, its just happens to be the US this time. If you look back, I have done the same for a few other places as well)

also, sorry for grammar stuffs. iPad typing is iffy. Not going to fix them tho.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 12:44:07 PM by Soryon »

Offline Nikkoru

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Re: U.S. ambassador to Libya killed in rocket attack
« Reply #39 on: September 14, 2012, 12:32:10 PM »
I could do without anti-American zealots, who litter arguments with stereotypes and political acrimony without consideration of the subtle distinctions that make up life anywhere. Spouting off statements of American impropriety, ignorance, and monstrous egoism -- as fir they're all Captain Planet villains. Just as disturbing are braggadocio nationalists who so concretely established "American" as the basis for their identity, bringing with it an overblown sense of importance where every saintly accomplishment of any American leader or private citizen becomes their own. Naturally neither will accept that either worldview is inconsistent when viewed critically, and will scorn you on the basis of disrupting their delusions of grandeur or martyrdom.

I used to run a political chatroom, you could spot these people in seconds, and there are a lot of them. Or perhaps it's just the Internet which brings them out. It becomes incredibly challenging to not treat America as a monolith with either of them, not when discussing foreign policy especially. The fact that most of the anti-American crowd were American adults, whereas I was 16 year old Canadian, made it a challenge to genuinely argue them. These people who felt so ostracized by the political attitudes in the States at the time that they only identified with themselves and a few people like them anymore. I always felt they were being hyperbolic, for self-satisfaction, but when Bush was re-elected I did feel some empathy towards their position.

I think you have to take some personal responsibility for the positions of your government. I do with mine, and I'm not pleased with the current situation. Washing your hands of it entirely,  walking the hazy line between indifference and self-apologetic wincing, seems somehow cowardly to me.
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