Author Topic: Need help extending my wireless network  (Read 1112 times)

Offline SirSkyRider

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Need help extending my wireless network
« on: October 01, 2012, 05:07:07 PM »
Good evening, fellow members of BakaBT.

I have a slight problem with my current gaming setup. I want to access the internet with my gaming devices (atm mainly the PS3), however, my WLAN access point and the devices are in separate rooms on different floors and thus the connection happens to be rather unstable. I have created a diagram which may help you understand my problem and two possible solutions I have thought up.



The right room on GF is my room, were my wireless access device (an Apple AirPort Express) is located (blue rectangle). The room on 2F is where my gaming devices are located (orange rectangle) and is the only room in the house where I don't get a good connection with them. The red line marks the rough way the connection is right now (which isn't working).

Solution 1 (green): I get a repeater and install it in the room above mine. It may also be possible to use an AirPort Extreme as an access device in this case and use the Express as the repeater.

Solution 2 (yellow): I get a new access device (or a router that can be reprogrammed as such) and two repeaters. In this case, I'd probably abandon the AirPort Express, since it can only be used in combination with an AirPort Extreme and this may turn out too costy.

Optional solution (dunno yet if this can work): I turn on the WLAN on our home router and amplify it with two repeaters.

Now to my questions:
1. Which solution do you think would be the best (both technically and cost-wise)?
2. Should I quit using the AirPort system altogether?
3. Which access devices, routers and repeaters would you recommend?

Online kitamesume

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Re: Need help extending my wireless network
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2012, 06:17:24 PM »
1) don't use a repeater, introduces really insane latencies, and cut's overall bandwidth by half.
2) why not move both devices on the 1F right room? costs the least (only costs the trouble of re-placing them)
3) if option 2 is not possible, although first see if you could put an external antenna on the apple express, buy a 9-12dB antenna and place it near the center of your diagram (connection wise, a straight vertical line is shorter than a diagonal line.)
4) if option 3 is not possible, i pick question 2 and answer yes.

edit: option 5) quit apple, slowly? nah, try now.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 06:28:10 PM by kitamesume »

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Offline Bob2004

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Re: Need help extending my wireless network
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2012, 06:20:41 PM »
Assuming the only place where you can connect your router to the internet is where it already is, then the best solution would be to get an ethernet cable set up. Ideally all the way up to the 2nd floor, but even up to the 1st floor then connecting a second wireless access point to it there would be better than using repeaters (since bandwidth is halved when in repeater mode, and latency is increased). Failing that, yeah, two repeaters would be the best option. It all depends on how much money/effort you have available to spend though.

Offline SirSkyRider

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Re: Need help extending my wireless network
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2012, 07:22:41 PM »
1) don't use a repeater, introduces really insane latencies, and cut's overall bandwidth by half.
2) why not move both devices on the 1F right room? costs the least (only costs the trouble of re-placing them)
3) if option 2 is not possible, although first see if you could put an external antenna on the apple express, buy a 9-12dB antenna and place it near the center of your diagram (connection wise, a straight vertical line is shorter than a diagonal line.)
4) if option 3 is not possible, i pick question 2 and answer yes.

edit: option 5) quit apple, slowly? nah, try now.

2) entirely not possible, that is my grandma's hobby room and I can't set up a TV there.
3) hmmm... I don't know if that is possible, but I will look into it.
4) like I said... that room is already in use
5) already on it, more or less.

Assuming the only place where you can connect your router to the internet is where it already is, then the best solution would be to get an ethernet cable set up. Ideally all the way up to the 2nd floor, but even up to the 1st floor then connecting a second wireless access point to it there would be better than using repeaters (since bandwidth is halved when in repeater mode, and latency is increased). Failing that, yeah, two repeaters would be the best option. It all depends on how much money/effort you have available to spend though.

Eh, I think you misunderstood me a little. This isn't a "router" in the classic sense, but a wireless access device that is connected to a normal ethernet. Which is the next problem – there are only ethernet cables laid out on the ground floor of our house. To make an ethernet access on the other floors would mean quite some construction work and that won't be my call to make.

Another option I just thought of was the construction of a "bridge" by connecting a second access device to a splitter and from there to my consoles, since my Laptop gets full connection through 802.11n WLAN (which my consoles don't support). Any thoughts on this?

Offline Bob2004

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Re: Need help extending my wireless network
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2012, 08:42:41 PM »
Ahh, so just a wireless bridge then? OK, yeah I did misunderstand you.

As for laying a cable upstairs, I wasn't thinking of anything that would require much in the way of construction work - more like have it run along the top of the skirting board, up the stairs, and under the door (or potentially through a small hole or groove drilled in the corner of the door, or the door frame - though that would be more major), held in place using those cable clip things you can get for exactly that purpose. Chances are you have some cables running around your house like that already. You could do it yourself with minimal difficulty, though obviously you'd still want to double check it's OK with the owner of the house first.

You might also want to check that you don't have any phone sockets (if using ADSL) or cable sockets (for cable internet) on the first floor. If so, connecting your modem and AP to that might solve the problem (although it may impact the speed of your net connection, depending on the quality of the wiring in your house).

And finally, there are those power line networking things which plug into power sockets and use the power cables to provide networking. I don't know how good they actually are, and my advice would be to use it only to connect one or two things at most (so connect your games console to your router, and not do anything else with it). Could be worth looking into though, since it's become a relatively cheap option nowadays, and I have actually heard good things about it.

Online kitamesume

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Re: Need help extending my wireless network
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2012, 01:53:56 AM »
is it possible to wire the ethernet cables through the window and along the stormdrain and back into the house through the window again? thats one option.

by option 4 i meant your question 2 and answering it as a yes.

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Offline rathoriel

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Re: Need help extending my wireless network
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2012, 02:04:14 AM »
get rid of the apple garbage and everything will be ok

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Offline SirSkyRider

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Re: Need help extending my wireless network
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2012, 06:05:55 AM »
Ahh, so just a wireless bridge then? OK, yeah I did misunderstand you.

1. As for laying a cable upstairs, I wasn't thinking of anything that would require much in the way of construction work - more like have it run along the top of the skirting board, up the stairs, and under the door (or potentially through a small hole or groove drilled in the corner of the door, or the door frame - though that would be more major), held in place using those cable clip things you can get for exactly that purpose. Chances are you have some cables running around your house like that already. You could do it yourself with minimal difficulty, though obviously you'd still want to double check it's OK with the owner of the house first.

2. You might also want to check that you don't have any phone sockets (if using ADSL) or cable sockets (for cable internet) on the first floor. If so, connecting your modem and AP to that might solve the problem (although it may impact the speed of your net connection, depending on the quality of the wiring in your house).

3. And finally, there are those power line networking things which plug into power sockets and use the power cables to provide networking. I don't know how good they actually are, and my advice would be to use it only to connect one or two things at most (so connect your games console to your router, and not do anything else with it). Could be worth looking into though, since it's become a relatively cheap option nowadays, and I have actually heard good things about it.

1. OK, well, I believe that this isn't going to work either. Maybe as a temporary solution, but not permanently. It would (I've calculated a bit) require at least 35m of cable and my mother (who is the owner) would definitely not approve.

2. There is ONE phone socket on the first floor, but I can't install our modem there b/c the line is registered to a different phone number and it would also render internet access unavailable for my parents (who don't like using wireless networking). Another one was installed back when we reconstructed the house front, but it's just a dummy.

3. We've used that some time ago and I can tell you it isn't that good. Furthermore, it would require the router access to be plugged into the same circuit and the second floor and ground floor run on different circuits. Or so I am told, but I can investigate if it may be possible to do it anyway.

1. is it possible to wire the ethernet cables through the window and along the stormdrain and back into the house through the window again? thats one option.

2. by option 4 i meant your question 2 and answering it as a yes.

1. No, not possible. The storm drain runs along the roof and lets the water drop directly into the stream behind our house.

2. Ah, alright.

Online kitamesume

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Re: Need help extending my wireless network
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2012, 06:40:26 AM »
not necessarily along the stormdrain, rather make it scale over the wall with this.


run it out the window(bore a small hole on the window frame and stuff it with hardening clay?), nail the wire vertically climbing up, run it into the 2nd floor's window.

edit: its similar to how people wire outdoor antennas onto their roofs.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2012, 07:08:33 AM by kitamesume »

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Offline Freedom Kira

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Re: Need help extending my wireless network
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2012, 10:05:29 AM »
not necessarily along the stormdrain, rather make it scale over the wall with this.


run it out the window(bore a small hole on the window frame and stuff it with hardening clay?), nail the wire vertically climbing up, run it into the 2nd floor's window.

edit: its similar to how people wire outdoor antennas onto their roofs.

Do you always have to think of the most complicated solutions to simple problems? I swear, if someone asked you to teach their kid how to brush their teeth, you would build a robot to do it for you, along with several other completely unrelated tasks that may or may not cause collateral damage.

OP wants stronger wireless access on the second floor. Stop suggesting wiring and hammering shit into the house. If it wasn't okay to run wires through the walls, it's probably not okay to drill holes in the outside wall either.

Anyway, back to topic. Have you tried using a repeater with the AirPort before? It doesn't really sound like something Apple would support. I have my doubts about it. I'm in favor of ditching the AirPort entirely and replacing it with a router that you have more control over.

I've set up a router and repeater system in a friend's place. It's working well and they're happy with it. The modem and router are in the basement, and the repeater is on the first floor. The signal strength on the second floor is excellent, though if your image is not exaggerating the size, your house seems to be a lot wider and your signal has to travel a much greater horizontal distance than theirs. Both the router and repeater are Rosewill routers; one is just set up to work as a repeater. I have to warn, though, that Rosewill's hardware might be decent and cheap, but they are a pain to set up.

I would suggest putting a repeater on the first floor and see if that improves your connection to a satisfactory level. If you use a proper N repeater with three antennae, it should probably be okay.

Don't forget that you usually have to configure a repeater via Ethernet, and don't forget to change the IP address of the repeater to be different from that of your main router (usually 192.168.0.1 for the main router, and probably 192.168.0.2 etc. for repeaters). IP clashing is really annoying and wasted over an hour of my time.

Online kitamesume

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Re: Need help extending my wireless network
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2012, 10:52:50 AM »
if you haven't noticed THATS OPTION 6 of my suggestions.

wireless and thick concrete doesn't mix, theres hardly any other solution to boost signals and most of them compromises too much to achieve one thing.


6) either the best way is to plant wires at the shortest route, through outside is what i think rather than through the door, stairs, back into the door.
7) or put both transmitters nearer the window, the signals would circle outside instead of going through two thick concretes.
7.1) or do it like this via placing the transmitters nearer each other, yes mount it onto the ceiling if you must, oh look i shrunk like 60% more or less of the distance.
(click to show/hide)

and do note, in terms of least costs bare cable > repeater, you're your own labor. see first as to how much would a repeater cost locally, they could potentially reach 50+$ a piece(cheap ones could go as low as 20$, and good strong ones go as far as 100$), more so with multiple repeaters.
if you're willing to spend more than 100$, might as well consider purchasing something else, a 600mW wifi router maybe?

edit: theres also the way of brute force, buying directional bi-quad antennas facing each other through the floors, but of course cancer for the living that goes in between the signals.

although im still waiting for the reply if the airport express supports external antennas, if they do then find out which type of wifi it uses and purchase a matching 12dB antenna and take note of the antenna connector, place the antenna onto a spot which your consoles gets good signal.
(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: October 02, 2012, 11:59:51 AM by kitamesume »

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Offline SirSkyRider

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Re: Need help extending my wireless network
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2012, 01:28:53 PM »
So, here's an update:

1. Placing wires outside the house is not an option. First of all, my mother wouldn't allow it, second reason is that we have special windows with shutters directly mounted to them and we'd have to go through these as well to mount the cable.

2. The AirPort devices both (neither Extreme nor Express) do not support external antennas.

3. Reception is quite OK with my laptop on the 2nd Floor.

4. The PS3 or rather the TV rack it is inside cannot be moved to another place.

OK, so here's another solution I came up with loosely based on kitamesume's Idea with the external antenna:

(click to show/hide)

Any objections?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2012, 01:35:39 PM by SirSkyRider »

Offline datora

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Re: Need help extending my wireless network
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2012, 11:25:01 PM »
.
Have you looked into powerline networking?

 - http://www.newegg.com/Store/SubCategory.aspx?SubCategory=294&name=Powerline-Networking

I've not used it myself.  In my situation, I've run Cat7 cable through GB routers & switches, with a couple 450/450 wireless routers.

I did read up a bit on powerline networks and one of my friends has used them a bit.  A lot of positive reviews, but you have to shop for robust, reliable equipment.  I only give the newegg URL as an example of a place to start for reviews & vocabulary to begin searches, and I see these devices showing up weekly in their newsletters and Shell Shocker deals.
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Online kitamesume

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Re: Need help extending my wireless network
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2012, 01:52:31 AM »
^ he did mention that the powerlines were isolated on each floors.

@SirSkyRider
based on number 4, i'd say the only problem are the consoles being too weak to receive/transmit the signals, you'll only need one repeater placed onto the console if thats the case, at least not two(two being the worst case since it quadruples latencies and quarters the overall bandwidth, not a good thing).

yes that may work, and since your laptop is getting consistent connection without any modification, you'd only either need a signal booster on the 2nd floor on that spot you've placed, or a repeater.

on a slightly more complicated note although the cheapest, look into turning your laptop into a repeater (temporarily?), you'd then save money from purchasing one, and could test it before hand if you really do want to purchase one.
windows 7 - http://www.sevenforums.com/network-sharing/254729-turn-windows-7-laptop-into-wireless-repeater-one-wireless-adapter.html
http://www.connectify.me/
http://virtualrouter.codeplex.com/
http://www.mypublicwifi.com/publicwifi/en/index.html
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 02:13:53 AM by kitamesume »

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Offline Freedom Kira

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Re: Need help extending my wireless network
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2012, 03:30:53 AM »
First, I ditch the AirPort Express (can sell it on eBay maybe) and get a router/access point device with the possibility to install external antennas (maybe even one with a 5GHz band). Next, I let the antenna cable run up to the ceiling and to the approximate middle of the room. There's a lamp installed there that has some sort of blind which I can use to glue the antenna to. Next, I place a bridging device on the floor of the room in 2F, close to where the antenna will be located. From there, I will place an ethernet cable running along the floor to the PS3 and its merry friends.

Any objections?

I would first try it without running the antenna to the ceiling. That can easily double the amount of work you would have to do if you didn't have to do that (not to mention glue is generally an ugly thing). And if your ceiling is less than 20 feet high, it'd hardly be of any benefit.

By bridging device, you mean repeater? Sounds like it should work.

In case you're wondering what my aforementioned friend's setup is, he's using a Rosewill N150RT as a main router, and a Rosewill N4PS as a repeater. The latter also has a Rosewill RNX-A2-EX external antenna attached, which is totally not necessary anymore because it's just sitting on top of the router.

The N4PS was having trouble routing their TV connection properly, which is the only reason why the N150RT is the main router. Otherwise they'd probably just have the N4PS and the antenna in the basement, and ditch the little N150RT altogether.

Anyway, you should try getting two of the N4PS and setting one up as a router and the other as a repeater on the first or second floor. It's a pretty cheap router and should run you less than $100 shipped for two.

Offline datora

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Re: Need help extending my wireless network
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2012, 04:22:25 AM »
.
^ he did mention that the powerlines were isolated on each floors.

OKay, I did miss that.

However.

Powerline networking often does work across circuit breakers.  It gets stopped when it hits transformers.  There are a lot of factors, including the type of circuit breaker and if there are ground-interrupt plugs on the circuit.  Microwaves, refrigerator/large appliance motors, surge protection, halogen lighting, age & condition of wiring, and small gauge bottlenecks ... a good number of things can all degrade or stop a powerline network connection.

It takes a bit of research to be sure.  And, you will need to carefully evaluate the circuit(s) the network would operate on.  It's also unsecure, so anybody not blocked by a transformer can potentially access your network if you don't have encryption in place.

It's worth looking into because, if it's possible in your situation, it is a very simple solution.  The old theoretical limit was 200 Mb/s speed, with practical speeds in the 65-90 Mb/s usually expected, under minor, normal problems that you would expect to encounter.  Thing is, each house/apartment, etc. is such a unique environment that you have to study the tech and evaluate the specific location carefully.

There are also three or five competing technologies ... so one might work where another fails.  Try to find a way to 'borrow' or return different vendor technologies for practical field testing.

But, short answer: circuit breaker technology don't usually stop the signal ... some other problem or condition needs to be present to cut it.  Electric meters & transformers do put up a roadblock.

Aggressive google and studying would be necessary to truly discount the tech.


[ EDIT:  Speaking of Shell Shocker deals.  If you can use newegg in the U.S., this just went live a few minutes ago & will be available for about 24 hours:

Combo deal for $59.99 delivered:

 • D-Link Powerline Router (DHP-1320) Wireless N300, Hybrid

bundled with:

  • 1x D-Link PowerLine AV Mini Adapter (DHP-310AV) ]
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 07:07:41 AM by datora »
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Offline Pentium100

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Re: Need help extending my wireless network
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2012, 06:16:31 AM »
Powerline networking seems useful and the devices I have (Zyxel PLA-401) support encryption. I managed to create conditions where speed is only about 10mbps (the signal goes trough 3 circuit breakers, pretty much does a loop around the house and ends up in a room next to the one with the first device) but otherwise the connection is quite good (for example to the basement from 1st* floor). I use them because wireless is much less reliable and also difficult to use, because my house is made of bricks, and the walls are quite thick.

However, for some reason the powerline networking signal does not want to go trough one extension cord I have (with a switch), the cord probably has some filtering or something. Obviously you cannot connect the powerline adapter to the output of a UPS (as UPSs, at least the good ones, filter the signal out).
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Offline Saras

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Re: Need help extending my wireless network
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2012, 07:49:14 AM »
You basically have the options of a powerline or a drill and a long cable. If your wifi needs just a little bit more juice, then you can look into directional antennae instead of omnidirectional ones.

I choose the cable in my case. As maintaining speed was a priority for me and setting down the cable is also the cheapest, fastest and the most secure option. But it will require a bit of handiwork.

Offline SirSkyRider

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Re: Need help extending my wireless network
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2012, 07:50:17 AM »
1. I would first try it without running the antenna to the ceiling. That can easily double the amount of work you would have to do if you didn't have to do that (not to mention glue is generally an ugly thing). And if your ceiling is less than 20 feet high, it'd hardly be of any benefit.

2. By bridging device, you mean repeater? Sounds like it should work.

3. Anyway, you should try getting two of the N4PS and setting one up as a router and the other as a repeater on the first or second floor. It's a pretty cheap router and should run you less than $100 shipped for two.

1. OK. I'll probably get it anyway and send it back if it isn't needed.

2. More or less. It is a sort of router that receives the wireless signals and then is connected through the devices via an ethernet cable. It is like using a different device for a wireless antenna instead of using the built-in wireless antennae.

3. Can't get Rosewill over here in Germany. I'll probably get an Assmann, a friend owns them and he is very happy with them.

@Saras: Like I stated before, using a cable is more or less out of the question. The only way I'd use a cable is to have it run inside the house for two reasons: First, I don't need a connection up there permanently – during lecture times I am living in a dormitory and only go home during the weekends. Second, I'll be moving out in about a year and a half – thus, I need a setup that can be easily removed when that time comes. Drilling a cable up there isn't exactly something that can be easily removed.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 08:00:11 AM by SirSkyRider »

Offline Freedom Kira

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Re: Need help extending my wireless network
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2012, 10:45:57 AM »
2. More or less. It is a sort of router that receives the wireless signals and then is connected through the devices via an ethernet cable. It is like using a different device for a wireless antenna instead of using the built-in wireless antennae.

Ah, those. I haven't personally ever tried one, but I don't see why it wouldn't work.

I think that a simple repeater would probably be good enough, though, especially if you are already able to get some signal.

3. Can't get Rosewill over here in Germany. I'll probably get an Assmann, a friend owns them and he is very happy with them.

Ah, yeah. Newegg's home brand is pretty much exclusive to North America.

Do you get ASUS stuff over there? I personally use the ASUS RT-N16 at home, with a Tomato USB flash. It works very well. Originally, the main reason why I got it was for the gigabit router capabilities, but I soon got too many devices with wireless capability, so I turned the wireless on with hidden SSID. I don't think I've ever had a single disappointment over the past 2-3 years that I've had it for, even with 24/7 torrenting from two machines.