Author Topic: A question to conservatives about homosexuality  (Read 1490 times)

Offline elvikun

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Re: A question to conservatives about homosexuality
« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2012, 03:16:18 AM »
Gay folks get their legal rights, Christianity can keep marriage as a religious rite, everyone's happy.

I think you're kinda hitting the nail there - it's not really about the rite itself, it's about that many religious people don't want to see homosexuals together, in more extreme cases, they would love to see them stripped of all human rights and/ or proclaimed as "mentally ill". And hey, I'm pretty sure there are even people who would still be up for killing homosexuals with the right-sized stones.
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Offline mgz

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Re: A question to conservatives about homosexuality
« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2012, 09:57:23 AM »
1) Remove "marriage" as a legal institution and relegate it solely to a religious term.
2) Change the laws so that "civil union" is the institution that replaces "marriage" in all legal senses of the word.
3) Allow all of the same groups (churches, local governments, etc) that have authority to "marry" two people to instead "civilly unite" two people.
4) Continue to allow churches to "marry" whoever they want.  "Marriage" just no longer has any legal meaning.
5) Extend the right to have a "civil union" to both heterosexual and homosexual couples.
 
Gay folks get their legal rights, Christianity can keep marriage as a religious rite, everyone's happy.
ive posted that same thing at least a dozen times on this forum lol

Offline dakarv

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Re: A question to conservatives about homosexuality
« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2012, 10:08:01 AM »
Quote
1) Remove "marriage" as a legal institution and relegate it solely to a religious term.
2) Change the laws so that "civil union" is the institution that replaces "marriage" in all legal senses of the word.
3) Allow all of the same groups (churches, local governments, etc) that have authority to "marry" two people to instead "civilly unite" two people.
4) Continue to allow churches to "marry" whoever they want.  "Marriage" just no longer has any legal meaning.
5) Extend the right to have a "civil union" to both heterosexual and homosexual couples.
 
Gay folks get their legal rights, Christianity can keep marriage as a religious rite, everyone's happy.
But why does gay marriage have to be different? Just accept that their marriage doesn't effect yours and live your own fucking lives.

Plenty of non-religious people choose a normal marriage, why can't gay people?  sure the bible doesn't like gays but it also doesn't like people who eat shellfish and says a lot of other random/contradictory crap that isn't taken literally anymore.

Offline mgz

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Re: A question to conservatives about homosexuality
« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2012, 10:13:39 AM »
Quote
1) Remove "marriage" as a legal institution and relegate it solely to a religious term.
2) Change the laws so that "civil union" is the institution that replaces "marriage" in all legal senses of the word.
3) Allow all of the same groups (churches, local governments, etc) that have authority to "marry" two people to instead "civilly unite" two people.
4) Continue to allow churches to "marry" whoever they want.  "Marriage" just no longer has any legal meaning.
5) Extend the right to have a "civil union" to both heterosexual and homosexual couples.
 
Gay folks get their legal rights, Christianity can keep marriage as a religious rite, everyone's happy.
But why does gay marriage have to be different? Just accept that their marriage doesn't effect yours and live your own fucking lives.

Plenty of non-religious people choose a normal marriage, why can't gay people?  sure the bible doesn't like gays but it also doesn't like people who eat shellfish and says a lot of other random/contradictory crap that isn't taken literally anymore.
its not making gay marriage different. Its making straight marriage different.
Its making it so the government separates itself from the term marriage which the religious zealots use and defend to death, and calling it something different.

Because gay people in the states care about the government side of marriage not the church bullshit(most of them)

So government changes marriage to civil union defines civil union as basically the same thing as married in their books but defines it as between two consenting adults instead of a man and a woman

Offline dakarv

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Re: A question to conservatives about homosexuality
« Reply #44 on: December 17, 2012, 10:22:43 AM »
Quote
its not making gay marriage different. Its making straight marriage different.
Its making it so the government separates itself from the term marriage which the religious zealots use and defend to death, and calling it something different.
not really, if you want to let gay people get married in a church and call it marriage, then change what religious people do, then sure

Quote
Because gay people in the states care about the government side of marriage not the church bullshit(most of them)
fair enough but I still think many would want the whole church thing and the rest probably just want to be treated the same

Quote
So government changes marriage to civil union defines civil union as basically the same thing as married in their books but defines it as between two consenting adults instead of a man and a woman
Don't we already have this? civil unions that have the same rights as marriage, sure we don't call marriages civil unions but we do call civil unions marriage.

Offline Ixarku

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Re: A question to conservatives about homosexuality
« Reply #45 on: December 17, 2012, 01:54:09 PM »
its not making gay marriage different. Its making straight marriage different.
Its making it so the government separates itself from the term marriage which the religious zealots use and defend to death, and calling it something different.

Because gay people in the states care about the government side of marriage not the church bullshit(most of them)

So government changes marriage to civil union defines civil union as basically the same thing as married in their books but defines it as between two consenting adults instead of a man and a woman

This.  It all depends on how you frame the discussion.  My thought is to frame the argument in a way that removes religious objections to gay marriage, and at the same time disentangles a little piece of religion from government.  If Christians want to define marriage as a religious sacrament that exists solely between a man and a woman, I say, fine -- if religion gets to define marriage, then any individual church has the right to decide who they will marry.  If some churches will only accept men & women, I've got no problem with that; it's their right to decide how they will serve the community.  However, there are likely to be some churches that will accept a union of two men or two women, and homophobic groups will have no say in the matter.
 
And if marriage is strictly a religious sacrament, then the government shouldn't be in the business of regulating it in the first place.  Hence why I argue to "give" marriage back to religion.  There's still a necessity for recognizing a formal legal relationship between two people, which is why I say to replace "marriage" with "civil union" in all legal language.  And with religious objections dealt with, government can define civil unions in any fashion the public chooses, making it possible to recognize the legal union of homosexual as well as heterosexual couples.

 
 
To put it another way, if Christians want to argue semantics, then it's rather easy to play word games and give them want they want while simultaneously addressing the civil rights of homosexuals.  Christians opposing what I and others are suggesting would have to do so purely on the basis of morality, which is an argument that can't be won, since it's not based in rational thought.  The only other objection I can see people making to this idea is the removal of "marriage" as a legal status, since doing so does fly in the face of tradition, and for some reason many people are stuck on the idea that tradition is somehow automatically better than doing something different.  Again, it's not a rational argument but it is a powerful motivator nonetheless.
 
My interest in the subject in question is from the perspective of solving a problem -- of all of the issues plaguing the world in general and the U.S. in particular, this one seems like a no-brainer to me.
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Offline mgz

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Re: A question to conservatives about homosexuality
« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2012, 11:15:22 AM »
Quote
its not making gay marriage different. Its making straight marriage different.
Its making it so the government separates itself from the term marriage which the religious zealots use and defend to death, and calling it something different.
not really, if you want to let gay people get married in a church and call it marriage, then change what religious people do, then sure

Quote
Because gay people in the states care about the government side of marriage not the church bullshit(most of them)
fair enough but I still think many would want the whole church thing and the rest probably just want to be treated the same

Quote
So government changes marriage to civil union defines civil union as basically the same thing as married in their books but defines it as between two consenting adults instead of a man and a woman
Don't we already have this? civil unions that have the same rights as marriage, sure we don't call marriages civil unions but we do call civil unions marriage.
what i meant when i said making straight marriage different is that the government side changes people dont get married by the government anymore.

Civil unions cover many of the same things as marriage but not all. You need to get a lawyer and have contracts drawn up to get most of the benefits that marriage provides for straights which is absurd to force them to do that. Benefits for spouses doesnt work with civil union.

Leave marriage to religion.

Rename marriage on the government side, define as between two consenting adults

Let the churches decide if they want to marry gays in their churches

Offline Nikkoru

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Re: A question to conservatives about homosexuality
« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2012, 11:33:36 AM »
The thing is, marriage isn't religious. This is the scam religious institutions have played recently. It's always been an economic construct to codify inheritance and ensure patrilineal heredity, at least on any official level. Anyone can claim they're married de facto, vowing love and devotion to an individual is relatively easy however difficult it may be to live up to those vows.

No marriage doesn't have to be confined to churches, it's not theirs.

Marriage has to be redefined based on love, rather than contractual mergers of interested parties.
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Offline Ixarku

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Re: A question to conservatives about homosexuality
« Reply #48 on: December 19, 2012, 01:47:43 PM »
I think that, in the long-term, it's most likely that marriage will simply be extended to same-sex couples, which is fine by me.  There are different ways to approach the issue.
 
The funny thing is that I have yet to see even a single rational reason to convince me that allowing gay marriage would be bad.  Not one.  People can make all kinds of arguments about the pros and cons of gun control, or the war on drugs, or the role of the U.S. in world affairs or whatever, and it can be tough to pick a side on those issues, but this one issue is to me completely black and white.  I don't see any legimitate reason to deny extending a civil right to this group of people.
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Offline jaybug

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Re: A question to conservatives about homosexuality
« Reply #49 on: December 20, 2012, 04:43:08 AM »
But Nikk, does that mean people can't get married for money instead of love anymore?
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Offline Ixarku

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Re: A question to conservatives about homosexuality
« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2012, 01:00:07 PM »
But Nikk, does that mean people can't get married for money instead of love anymore?

I think that same-sex couples should have the right to experience just as much misery as heterosexual couples.
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Offline jaybug

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Re: A question to conservatives about homosexuality
« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2012, 08:23:01 PM »
But Nikk, does that mean people can't get married for money instead of love anymore?

I think that same-sex couples should have the right to experience just as much misery as heterosexual couples.

Hear! Hear!
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